I am sorry... to what did I not respond? I thought I did respond to what you wrote on the post I quoted. Please clarify.
The Case For The Triune GodHead!
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robert derrick
Well-Known Member
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
There is always one verse of Scripture that throws out any and all falsehoods about Scripture:
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1 Cor 15:45)
Jesus was not made a force. Neither is the Spirit of Christ a force.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God: the Holy Spirit of truth.
No force.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
The Spirit speaks. No force speaks.
The Spirit of God is a Person, not a force.
End of story.
Here are a few more scriptures to show that the word "spirit" and "wind" are the same Hebrew word ruach, in which the context determines whether it is "spirit" or "wind", an invisible force that produces visible results, our motivation to live, our disposition or mental attitude, or a spirit person.
At Job 1:19, one of Job's surviving servants of Satan's attempt to break Job by killing his children, tells him: "Suddenly a great wind (Hebrew ruach) came from the wilderness, and it struck the four corners of the house, so that it fell on the young people and they were killed. I am the only one who escaped to tell you.”
And then at Ezekiel 37:9, it says of the "dry bones" in a valley: "He (Jehovah God) then said to me: “Prophesy to the wind (Hebrew ruach). Prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind (Hebrew ruach), ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “From the four winds (Hebrew ruach) come in, O wind (Hebrew ruach), and blow upon these people who were killed, so that they may come to life.”
At Genesis 26:35, it says: "They (Esau's two Hittite wives) were a source of great grief (literally "bitterness of spirit", Hebrew morah ruach) to Isaac and Re·bekʹah." Isaac and Rebekah felt intense sorrow or anguish over Esau choosing wives from among the Canaanites, because his Hittite wives displayed the same characteristics or disposition as him, loveless, that nothing was sacred (Heb 12:16), worshipping false gods and not Jehovah.(see Deut 7:1-6)
At Genesis 41:8, when Pharaoh of Egypt had a dream about seven skinny cows eating up seven fat cows and seven skinny ears of grain eating up seven fat ears of grain, it says that "in the morning, his spirit (Hebrew ruach) became agitated. So he sent for all the magic-practicing priests of Egypt and all her wise men." Pharaoh's mental disposition was "agitated" over the dreams, his "spirit was troubled".(King James Bible)
At Daniel 5, when Daniel was standing before Belshazzar, being sent for to interpret the writing on the wall that "the back of a hand" wrote (Dan 5:5), he said that "the Most High God granted to Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar your father (not literal father, but one who preceded him in the Babylonian dynasty of kings) the kingdom and greatness and honor and majesty......But when his heart became haughty and his spirit (Hebrew ruach) became hardened, so that he acted presumptuously, he was brought down from the throne of his kingdom, and his dignity was taken away from him."(Dan 5:18, 20)
Nebuchadnezzar showed a haughty or hardened "spirit" or extremely strong desire to do as he wished, not letting anyone stop him or listening to anyone as Babylonian king until Jehovah caused him to become insane for seven years and live with the "beasts of the field", becoming wet with dew and growing "nails like bird's claws", which greatly humbled him.(Dan 4:23-25, 33-35)
At Proverbs 29:23, it says: "The haughtiness (or haughty mental attitude) of a man will humble him, but whoever is humble in spirit (Hebrew ruach, or having a "meek" disposition) will obtain glory."(see Matt 5:5, whereby "the meek (or "humble in spirit") shall inherit the earth", King James Bible)
So, the word "spirit" can mean a number of things, depending on the context, from one's motivation to live, to our disposition (good or bad), to our life force, to an angel to Jehovah God.(John 4:24) When used in reference to angels, it means that they are invisible "forces", but produces visible results, for Psalms 103:20 says: "Praise Jehovah, all you his angels, mighty in power, who carry out his word, obeying his voice......and Psalms 104:4 continues by saying: "He (Jehovah) makes his angels spirits (literally "winds", Hebrew ruach), His ministers a consuming fire."
At Job 1:19, one of Job's surviving servants of Satan's attempt to break Job by killing his children, tells him: "Suddenly a great wind (Hebrew ruach) came from the wilderness, and it struck the four corners of the house, so that it fell on the young people and they were killed. I am the only one who escaped to tell you.”
And then at Ezekiel 37:9, it says of the "dry bones" in a valley: "He (Jehovah God) then said to me: “Prophesy to the wind (Hebrew ruach). Prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind (Hebrew ruach), ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “From the four winds (Hebrew ruach) come in, O wind (Hebrew ruach), and blow upon these people who were killed, so that they may come to life.”
At Genesis 26:35, it says: "They (Esau's two Hittite wives) were a source of great grief (literally "bitterness of spirit", Hebrew morah ruach) to Isaac and Re·bekʹah." Isaac and Rebekah felt intense sorrow or anguish over Esau choosing wives from among the Canaanites, because his Hittite wives displayed the same characteristics or disposition as him, loveless, that nothing was sacred (Heb 12:16), worshipping false gods and not Jehovah.(see Deut 7:1-6)
At Genesis 41:8, when Pharaoh of Egypt had a dream about seven skinny cows eating up seven fat cows and seven skinny ears of grain eating up seven fat ears of grain, it says that "in the morning, his spirit (Hebrew ruach) became agitated. So he sent for all the magic-practicing priests of Egypt and all her wise men." Pharaoh's mental disposition was "agitated" over the dreams, his "spirit was troubled".(King James Bible)
At Daniel 5, when Daniel was standing before Belshazzar, being sent for to interpret the writing on the wall that "the back of a hand" wrote (Dan 5:5), he said that "the Most High God granted to Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar your father (not literal father, but one who preceded him in the Babylonian dynasty of kings) the kingdom and greatness and honor and majesty......But when his heart became haughty and his spirit (Hebrew ruach) became hardened, so that he acted presumptuously, he was brought down from the throne of his kingdom, and his dignity was taken away from him."(Dan 5:18, 20)
Nebuchadnezzar showed a haughty or hardened "spirit" or extremely strong desire to do as he wished, not letting anyone stop him or listening to anyone as Babylonian king until Jehovah caused him to become insane for seven years and live with the "beasts of the field", becoming wet with dew and growing "nails like bird's claws", which greatly humbled him.(Dan 4:23-25, 33-35)
At Proverbs 29:23, it says: "The haughtiness (or haughty mental attitude) of a man will humble him, but whoever is humble in spirit (Hebrew ruach, or having a "meek" disposition) will obtain glory."(see Matt 5:5, whereby "the meek (or "humble in spirit") shall inherit the earth", King James Bible)
So, the word "spirit" can mean a number of things, depending on the context, from one's motivation to live, to our disposition (good or bad), to our life force, to an angel to Jehovah God.(John 4:24) When used in reference to angels, it means that they are invisible "forces", but produces visible results, for Psalms 103:20 says: "Praise Jehovah, all you his angels, mighty in power, who carry out his word, obeying his voice......and Psalms 104:4 continues by saying: "He (Jehovah) makes his angels spirits (literally "winds", Hebrew ruach), His ministers a consuming fire."
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Nice dissertation.
And I agree. There are several meanings for the words spirit and wind, one is natural and earthy, and the other is Spiritual and of God.
The natural and earthy is a force of nature.
The One that is spiritual and of God speaks expressly, and says to the churches, with a voice for us to hear:
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice...)
Only a Person speaks. Not the natural wind, nor force of nature. (I suppose we could put the dumb ass in there for one brief moment of fame)
In any case, there is no refuting the simple Scripture of the Spirit of God speaking expressly and saying the things of God to the churches.
Looks like you sidestepped the point.
I am beginning to believe that too many Christians spend too much time STUDYING.
God is Father
Jesus is Son
Jesus said He would give us the comforter= Holy Spirit
They are all God. So simple.
God is Father
Jesus is Son
Jesus said He would give us the comforter= Holy Spirit
They are all God. So simple.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Good point.
Studying Scripture as plainly written is easy. Studying Scripture to find what you want to believe, though not written plainly as such, is really hard work, and it usually takes lots of words to teach it.
But, intellectualism is a very enticing thing.
What is it? Missing the forest for the trees?
And they both begin fear...
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Prov. 1:7
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." Prov. 9:10
"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Excellent.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil would be adding man's carnal knowledge to God's Word.
Unnecessary and destructive.
Whether that call it Sacred tradition, special revelation, or the result of 'very careful study', if it isn't plain and simple like the Scriptures themselves, then it isn't Scripture, nor of God.
Carnal knowledge requires a very long-winded explanation for it, in order to cover the fact that it isn't simple and plain Scripture.
And likewise we become as gods being able to add our own mind and will to God's Word.
We cannot eat of both the tree of Life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
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Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
The Bible teaches that wisdom is applied knowledge, or knowledge that is acted on.
"The Spirit of God is a Person, not a force". The Bible 100% disagrees with this assessment:
"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting." - Acts 2:2
"And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God." - Luk. 1:35
Trinitarians don't understand the fact that the Greek language the NT was originally written in commonly assigns gender to things that aren't actually people(ex. Christ personalizing the Holy Spirit in Jhn 14-15). No credible lexicon or theological dictionary describes the Greek word "pneuma" as something that should be translated to mean the Holy Spirit is actually a Person.
If the Spirit is indeed a Person, Paul would've mentioned it as such in his greetings to the Godhead. And yet, it is left out in all of those greetings. The only possible conclusion to reach is that either Paul is a false apostle in light of what Christ said about speaking against the Holy Spirit or trinitarians have to admit that their belief isn't supported by the Bible. The Bible talks about the Holy Spirit "speaking" because having it is how a Christian understands what God is saying through the Bible(1 Cor. 2:10-14). It should not be difficult for trinitarians to grasp this.
Now to give more insight about the holy spirit, what it is. At Matthew 12, when the Jewish religious leaders accused Jesus of expelling the demons by means of Beelzebub, another name for Satan, he exposed their twisted, warped reasoning, saying: "Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand ? Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be·elʹze·bub, by whom do your sons expel them ? This is why they will be your judges. But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you."(Matt 12:25-28)
Jesus now brings out more details, that rejecting the expelling of the demon by means of God's spirit, whereby the Jewish religious leaders wrongfully give credence to Satan as the one who did it, Jesus now says: "For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the (holy) spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."
The Jewish religious leaders denied the power that Jehovah's holy spirit performed in expelling a demon from a demon-possessed man, thus sinning against the holy spirit. And note that even speaking a word against Jesus as "the Son of man", can be forgiven, while rejecting the power and capability of Jehovah's holy spirit when what it performs is undeniable, makes a person guilty of sinning against the holy spirit, resulting in being placed in Gehenna or everlasting death when they die, being never qualified for a resurrection.(see Matt 10:28)
A parallel account is at Luke 11, whereby Jesus calls the holy spirit or God's spirit as this: "For you (the Jewish religious leaders) say I expel the demons by means of Be·elʹze·bub. If I expel the demons by means of Be·elʹze·bub, by whom do your sons expel them? This is why they will be your judges. But if it is by means of God’s finger that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you."(Luke 11:18, 19)
Jesus calls the holy spirit, not God, but "God's finger", that means it is that which is an extension of him, emanating from him as his active or life force, a force of unlimited power and capability, having creating the universe. A person's finger is that which we use to accomplish various tasks, an expression that shows that Jehovah uses of his holy spirit to accomplish his will.
After the magic-practicing priests of ancient Egypt was unable to duplicate the third plague of gnats at Exodus 8, they did recognize one thing, that the miraculous creation of gnats was by means of "God's finger" or holy spirit, and that Jehovah's power should have been undeniable to them, but they retained the same wicked attitude as the Jewish religious leaders in Jesus day, refusing to accept Jehovah as the true God.(Ex 8:19)
Jesus now brings out more details, that rejecting the expelling of the demon by means of God's spirit, whereby the Jewish religious leaders wrongfully give credence to Satan as the one who did it, Jesus now says: "For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the (holy) spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."
The Jewish religious leaders denied the power that Jehovah's holy spirit performed in expelling a demon from a demon-possessed man, thus sinning against the holy spirit. And note that even speaking a word against Jesus as "the Son of man", can be forgiven, while rejecting the power and capability of Jehovah's holy spirit when what it performs is undeniable, makes a person guilty of sinning against the holy spirit, resulting in being placed in Gehenna or everlasting death when they die, being never qualified for a resurrection.(see Matt 10:28)
A parallel account is at Luke 11, whereby Jesus calls the holy spirit or God's spirit as this: "For you (the Jewish religious leaders) say I expel the demons by means of Be·elʹze·bub. If I expel the demons by means of Be·elʹze·bub, by whom do your sons expel them? This is why they will be your judges. But if it is by means of God’s finger that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you."(Luke 11:18, 19)
Jesus calls the holy spirit, not God, but "God's finger", that means it is that which is an extension of him, emanating from him as his active or life force, a force of unlimited power and capability, having creating the universe. A person's finger is that which we use to accomplish various tasks, an expression that shows that Jehovah uses of his holy spirit to accomplish his will.
After the magic-practicing priests of ancient Egypt was unable to duplicate the third plague of gnats at Exodus 8, they did recognize one thing, that the miraculous creation of gnats was by means of "God's finger" or holy spirit, and that Jehovah's power should have been undeniable to them, but they retained the same wicked attitude as the Jewish religious leaders in Jesus day, refusing to accept Jehovah as the true God.(Ex 8:19)
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Wisdom is a gift from God to interpret... Anyone can acquire knowledge...
I have found that there are an awful lot of Christians who seem to KNOW a great deal... but they lack wisdom.
@Addy True divine wisdom from God's Word is grasped spiritually, as the Holy Spirit gives light and understanding...
That is how I see it... and HE can grant knowledge as needed.... that was NOT studied for... by the Holy Spirit.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
If the Spirit is indeed a Person, Paul would've mentioned it as such in his greetings to the Godhead. And yet, it is left out in all of those greetings.
But God did by Himself:
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. (Rev 22)
People invite, not forces.
There is always Scripture by which God plainly rebukes false teachings of the carnal mind.
The Bible talks about the Holy Spirit "speaking" because having it is how a Christian understands what God is saying through the Bible.
Thanks for the effort to respond to the point; however, it is not Scripture, but rather only a philosophic rationalism. The Spirit Himself speaks to our hearts, and He bears witness of Jesus from the Scriptures.
It should not be difficult for trinitarians to grasp this.
Such carnal reasoning is simple to grasp, but Scripture is better to believe.
Trinitarians don't understand the fact that the Greek language the NT.
I know exactly what Koine Greek was, but I do not rely on it to sidestep the normal reading of words in my own language, just because I don't like what they are saying.
When it comes to the first principles of Christ, all that 'special scholarship' is not necessary, and more usually than not is a snare for the crafty.
The Spirit of God speaks. The Spirit of God says. The Spirit of God invites, and the Spirit of God Himself testifies of Jesus:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself.
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.
The Spirit of God is a Person, not a force, which neither speaks nor hears:
Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: they have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not. They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
You are idolizing a force into the Spirit of God.
If the Spirit of God is just a force and not a Person, then we born of His Spirit are just a force and not a new people.
I'm a person. Not a force, that can neither speak nor hear.
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robert derrick
Well-Known Member
if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself.
Is Satan a spirit divided against himself or a force divided against itself?
How can a force, which has no thought of itself, be dividing itself against itself?
Jesus calls the holy spirit, not God, but "God's finger", that means it is that which is an extension of him, emanating from him as his active or life force.
There is no such thing as a 'life' force. You are entering into idolatry of old, to personify nature, or give to nature things that only living beings can do.
Jesus commanded the Spirit, who then did the work, as in creation.
Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. (Zech 4)
Not by force.
Once again simple Scripture to rebuke carnal minded teachings, no matter how well constructed in scholastic argument.
A force of nature only has power to affect nature, but that is not the Spirit of God, who has power to both create and to destroy according to the commandment of both the Father and the Son.
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
............................................................
In the Old Testament (OT) it is clear that the inspired Bible writers intended holy spirit to be understood as an invisible, powerful force from God. Even many trinitarian scholars will admit that.
(We can even see the same understanding when the word “spirit” is used for the activating power or force used by other creatures. For example, Ezekiel 1:19, 20, speaking about the angels or cherubim who control the movement of God’s chariot, says literally, “and when the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels rose .... for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.” - RSV. It is clear that this means the controlling power of the cherubim moved the wheels. In fact the very trinitarian Good News Bible (GNB) paraphrases this to read: “the wheels did exactly what the creatures did, because the creatures controlled them.”)
For example, p. 269, The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1976, admits: “In the OT the Holy Spirit means a divine active power ...”
And the New Bible Dictionary, Tyndale House Publishers, 1984, pp. 1136, 1137, says:
“Spirit, Holy Spirit. OT, Heb. ruah 378 times...; NT, Gk. pneuma 379 times.” And “Divine power, where ruah is used to describe...a supernatural force....” And “At its [the Old Testament’s concept of God’s spirit] heart is the experience of a mysterious, awesome power - the mighty invisible force of the wind, the mystery of vitality, the otherly power that transforms - all ruah, all manifestations of divine energy.” And “at this early stage [pre-Christian] of understanding, God’s ruah was thought of simply as a supernatural power (under God’s authority) exerting force in some direction.”
The Encyclopedia Americana tells us:
“The doctrine of the Holy Spirit [as a person who is God] is a distinctly Christian one.... the Spirit of Jehovah [in the OT] is the active divine principle in nature. .... But it is in the New Testament [NT] that we find the bases of the doctrine of the Spirit’s personality.” And “Yet the early Church did not forthwith attain to a complete doctrine; nor was it, in fact, until after the essential divinity of Jesus had received full ecclesiastical sanction [in 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea] that the personality of the Spirit was explicitly recognized, and the doctrine of the Trinity formulated [381 A.D.].” Also, “It is better to regard the Spirit as the agency which, proceeding from the Father and the Son, dwells in the church as the witness and power of the life therein.” - v. 14, p. 326, 1957.
And Britannica agrees:
“The Hebrew word ruah (usually translated ‘spirit’) is often found in texts referring to the free and unhindered activity of God, .... There was, however, no explicit belief in a separate divine person in Biblical Judaism; in fact, the New Testament itself is not entirely clear in this regard....“The definition that the Holy Spirit was a distinct divine Person equal in substance to the Father and the Son and not subordinate to them came at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381....” - Encyclopedia Britannica Micropaedia, 1985, v. 6, p. 22.
Yes, not only did God’s people, as described in the OT, believe the holy spirit was an active force and not a person, but that same belief prevailed from the time of the NT writers up until at least 325 A. D. when the Roman Church officially accepted and began promoting its new doctrine. To bolster this NEW doctrine they went to the NT to find “proof.” That vague, ambiguous “proof” is what we will investigate in this study.
Many historians and Bible scholars (many of them trinitarians) freely admit the above truth. For example:
“On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the Spirit as a divine energy or power.” - A Catholic Dictionary.
“The majority of NT texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone” - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 575, Vol. 13, 1967.
“It is important to realize that for the first Christians the Spirit was thought of in terms of divine power.” - New Bible Dictionary, p. 1139, Tyndale House Publishers, 1984.
“The emergence of Trinitarian speculations in early church theology led to great difficulties in the article about the Holy Spirit. For the being-as-person of the Holy Spirit, which is evident in the New Testament as divine power...could not be clearly grasped.... The Holy Spirit was viewed not as a personal figure but rather as a power” - The New Encyclopedia Britannica.
“The true divinity of the third person [the holy spirit] was asserted...finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381 A. D.” - A Catholic Dictionary.
Yes, the Council of Constantinople (381 A. D.) first officially decreed “the personality of the Holy Spirit”. - Cairns, pp. 142, 145; also see Encyclopedia Britannica, v. 6, p. 22, 1985 ed.
Famed trinitarian Church historian Neander notes in History of Christian Dogma:
“Though Basil of Caesarea wished to teach the divinity [deity] of the holy spirit in his church, he only ventured to introduce it gradually.”
[Basil of Caesarea was a famed late 4th century trinitarian bishop - one of the ‘Three Cappadocians’ who were instrumental in further developing the trinity doctrine to the final form adopted at the council of Constantinople in 381 A. D. - An Encyclopedia of Religion, p. 794; and p. 237, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 1990 printing]
There was a very good reason for the reluctance of the early Christians to accept this new doctrine of the Spirit:
“In the N[ew] T[estament] there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity. The spirit is conceived as an IMPERSONAL POWER by which God effects his will through Christ.” - An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm (ed.), 1945, p. 344.
In fact, Gregory of Nazianzus (another of the ‘Three Cappadocians’ whom trinitarian historian Lohse praises as being essential to the final defeat of the Arians at the Council of Constantinople),
“declared that it was the destiny of his time [381 A. D.] to bring to full clarity the mystery which in the New Testament was only dimly intimated.” - p. 64, A Short History of Christian Doctrine, Bernard Lohse, Fortress Press, 1985.
But there's more:
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