• Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,460
31,581
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are deeply present in Matthew 28, John's Gospel, Romans 8, John's First Epistle, etc.
They are in your mind and perhaps in your heart... and I won't presume to deny that, but to say they are present in the chapters named should mean that anyone reading the chapters should see what you do.

I see what Trinitarians have pointed out to me, but without their direction how could I have seen in them what they saw?
 
Last edited:

BroRando

Active Member
May 1, 2021
596
88
28
Arizona
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Is the holy spirit God or a third member of the Trinity?

Care to share the scripture that states that? Or are you quoting Church doctrine? The scripture states, "Jehovah is the true God;" (Jeremiah 10:10)

Now, can you quote where in the Bible it states the trinity is the true God?
So is the trinity a True God or a False God?
 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,232
113
North America
Care to share the scripture that states that? Or are you quoting Church doctrine? The scripture states, "Jehovah is the true God;" (Jeremiah 10:10)

Now, can you quote where in the Bible it states the trinity is the true God?
So is the trinity a True God or a False God?
Read John's Gospel, esp. chapters 13 thru 17; and Romans 8; and John's First Epistle. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are overwhelmingly present.
 

GEN2REV

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2021
3,850
1,436
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Read John's Gospel, esp. chapters 13 thru 17; and Romans 8; and John's First Epistle. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are overwhelmingly present.
Do any of those mention the trio? Father and Son are mentioned, but … ever the trio?
 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,232
113
North America
Do any of those mention the trio? Father and Son are mentioned, but … ever the trio?
Romans 8.1-15):

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Addy

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,232
113
North America
@GEN2REV (cont.)

John 14.11-17:

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Addy

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,232
113
North America
@GEN2REV (con't): 1 John 3.1-24:

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Addy

GEN2REV

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2021
3,850
1,436
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, long story short … No, none of the chapters or verses that you referenced ever mention all 3 persons of the trinity.

Gotcha.

The Holy Spirit IS Christ.

1 Peter 1:11
" … the Spirit of Christ, which was in them …"

And it is God (The Father)

2 Peter 1:21
"For the prophecy came not IN OLD TIME by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit, God's Spirit, … Christ).

They are one. Just as scripture tells it repeatedly. They are not 3.
 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,232
113
North America
So, long story short … No, none of the chapters or verses that you referenced ever mention all 3 persons of the trinity.

Gotcha.

The Holy Spirit IS Christ.

1 Peter 1:11
" … the Spirit of Christ, which was in them …"

And it is God (The Father)

2 Peter 1:21
"For the prophecy came not IN OLD TIME by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit, God's Spirit, … Christ).

They are one. Just as scripture tells it repeatedly. They are not 3.
The chapters and verse divisions are not inspired, but in close proximity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit - God in Three Persons - keep recurring in the passages cited.

This is so important and there is no point even in arguing about it.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,460
31,581
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
...

This is so important and there is no point even in arguing about it.
If people who disagree on this topic could stick to discussion and refrain from heated arguments, how much closer to God would all of us be?

I believe that you @farouk are a sincere believer in God and his ways, but please be aware that there are people who will not embrace the Trinity such as myself who also sincerely believe in God and strive also to please Him.

In the end of the matter can people in both camps end up always with God? Who understands so perfectly the nature of God? Who sees so clearly His face?
 

Guestman

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
618
72
28
70
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
an invisible force that causes visible results

Neither the Spirit of God nor that of man is a force, but a person.

Gob breathes into us His breath and Spirit of life, and we become living souls, not forces.

The Son on earth was the express image of God's Person. God is a Spirit. The Spirit of God is a Person, not an inanimate blind force. A force does not see and think and do by will. The wind was used as an analogy of the Spirit of God, in how we are inspired of Him, whensoever we here Him, and so we know He is true, even as the wind when it blows.

Only those refusing God the Spirit would dive into a long study to try and produce the Spirit of God as a force and not a person.

It is a perfect example of ever learning and never coming to the truth of God by that learning, because the purpose of that learning is to reject the truth of God plainly written in Scripture.

The Word was God, and the Word was made flesh. There is no amount of deep dive into the Greek, nor carefully long and hard study of words to reject the simple Scripture as written.

One either believes it, or doesn't.

The name of Jehovah is nowhere mentioned in Scripture, after His new name is called Jesus by Scripture.

Jesus is the name called of God, that is above every name ever named.

Either believe it or not.

The real question is why reject simple Scripture as written? Why idolize a past new name of God, that was Jehovah, and so reject that risen God to worship, Who's name is now Jesus?

Mystery Babylon

The Bible uses the words "the spirit of God" and not "the spirit is God", as well as "God is a Spirit" at John 4:24 (denoting that God is not fleshly, but is an unseen spirit, in which humans cannot peer into the spirit realm with their eyes).

For example, the Scriptures uses the words "the spirit of man" at Zechariah 12:1 that says: "A pronouncement: “The word of Jehovah concerning Israel,” declares Jehovah, the One who stretched out the heavens, who laid the foundation of the earth, and who formed the spirit of man within him."

Does this mean that another "person" was placed in man by Jehovah God ? No. Rather, it means that Jehovah placed a life force within him, to activate him, to give him life, just as Jehovah has a life force within him that is able to create everything we see, extending beyond himself to any place in the universe, unlike man who spirit goes no further than as far as his hands can reach.

At Genesis 2:7, it says: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became (not placed within as something mysteriously separate, as the churches of Christendom teach) a living soul."(King James Bible)

Only when "the breath of life" was put within the first man Adam, could he now become a "living soul", for before the breath of life that started the life force (like turning on the "start" switch on an electrical appliance) was placed within Adam, he was a dead soul.(Note: the Hebrew word for soul is nephesh, that literally means "a breather", so that when anything that is "a breather", stops breathing and no longer taking in "life-giving" oxygen, they die)

Of John the Baptist, Luke 1:14, says that "he will be filled with with holy spirit even from before birth", being moved from before birth to feel its force (see Luke 1:41 that says that "as Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the infant in her womb leaped, and Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit"), so that when grown (or about 30 years old), he went forward to fulfill his assigned role as the one who "will go ahead of him (or the Messiah) with Elijah's spirit and power".(Luke 1:17; Note: power is directly tied in with spirit here, denoting that it is a power that moved John the Baptist to do Jehovah's will by preparing a people in advance of the Messiah just as Elijah was moved by Jehovah's spirit to take his stand for Jehovah on Mt Carmel before an audience of Baal worshippers; see 1 Kings 18)

Of John the Baptist father, Zechariah, Luke 1:67 says that he was "filled holy spirit" so that he was moved to say: "Let Jehovah be praised, the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention to his people and has brought them deliverance........But as for you, young child, you will be called a prophet of the Most High, for you will go ahead of Jehovah to prepare his ways (Isa 40:3), to give knowledge of salvation to his people by forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender compassion of our God. With this compassion a daybreak will visit us from on high, to give light to those sitting in darkness and death’s shadow and to guide our feet in the way of peace.”(Luke 1:68, 76-79)

If the word "spirit" is a person, or another "God" as many suppose, then how could Jesus be "full of holy spirit" ?(Luke 4:1) Could Jesus be filled with another "member of the Godhead", another "God" ? Is that reasonable ? No.(Note: the English word "Godhead" is a mistranslation of three Greek words (1) theotes at Col 2:9, (2) theiotes at Romans 1:20, and (3) and theion at Acts 17:29, for all three Greek words are accurately rendered as "divine quality", "Godship" or "Divine Being")

Rather, Jesus was filled with Jehovah's active force, a force that gave Jesus the power to heal people (Matt 8:1-17; 9:35; Luke 8:43-48), to resurrect them from the dead.(Luke 7:11-15; John 11:38-44), to cause a fig tree to wither.(Matt 21:19; Note: please remember what Ps 104:30 says: "If you send out your spirit, they are created", or that a person or "living creature" comes to life, having a life force or the flow or movement of elements within a person as "one" that causes them to start breathing, such as the heart pumping blood for oxygen and foods throughout the body, and not another person is place within them)

At 2 Peter 1:21, it says that "prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit." With Jesus using the Greek word pneuma as both "wind" and "spirit" at John 3:8, he established that it means an unseen force that produces visible results.

Just as gravity, electromagnetism, the Higgs field, the weak and strong nuclear force, etc, the wind are unseen forces that moves things, so likewise of God's holy spirit.

And the name Jehovah is in the Bible some 7,000 times, some 2,000 times more than God and Lord put to together.

The name Jehovah is in the King James Bible four times (1) Ex 6:3, (2) Ps 83:18, (3) Isa 12:2, (4) Isa 26:4. The 2011 Divine Name King James Bible rightfully has it some 7,000 times where it is found in the most ancient Hebrew manuscripts. The 1903 American Standard Version likewise has it as the same.

The New World Translation has it 6,979 times in the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly but inaccurately called "the Old Testament") and 237 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly but inaccurately called "the New Testament"), when quoting from the Hebrew Scriptures or it is seen as accurate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tigger 2

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are deeply present in Matthew 28, John's Gospel, Romans 8, John's First Epistle, etc.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

There really is no other need of Scripture, as you say, than this one.

They are three, and they are one.

They are one in unity, even as they would have believers in Jesus to be one as they are one. (John 17:22)

They therefore cannot be the one and same Person; otherwise, so would all believers have to be one and the same person, so that there is one body and one member only.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Is it really so clearly evident in the scriptures or is it because it has a history among men in church organizations that it is a well known doctrine?

To you it may be as you put it, 'vital', but I do wonder how many people would find the doctrine from the scriptures alone if they had never heard about it or read about from other sources?
I agree with your point: false doctrine is usually something that must be 'taught', because it is not readily seen in Scripture.

And so you have it backwards, in this case.

The real question is how any child could be reading the Gospels, with Jesus referring to His Father in heaven, and think they are the same Person.

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

We should never stop coming to the Scriptures as little children, ready to read what is plainly written with the normal sense of a child.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If people who disagree on this topic could stick to discussion and refrain from heated arguments, how much closer to God would all of us be?

I believe that you @farouk are a sincere believer in God and his ways, but please be aware that there are people who will not embrace the Trinity such as myself who also sincerely believe in God and strive also to please Him.

In the end of the matter can people in both camps end up always with God? Who understands so perfectly the nature of God? Who sees so clearly His face?
I agree that the argument of Oneness and Trinity is not essential to saving faith in Jesus Christ, even as it is not necessary for fulfilling the royal law of loving our neighbors by the faith of Jesus from a pure heart.

It is a good Scriptural dispute to try a believer's grasp of God's Word, which is fine in itself.

But nothing to deny fellowship over.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Bible uses the words "the spirit of God" and not "the spirit is God", as well as "God is a Spirit" at John 4:24 (denoting that God is not fleshly, but is an unseen spirit, in which humans cannot peer into the spirit realm with their eyes).

For example, the Scriptures uses the words "the spirit of man" at Zechariah 12:1 that says: "A pronouncement: “The word of Jehovah concerning Israel,” declares Jehovah, the One who stretched out the heavens, who laid the foundation of the earth, and who formed the spirit of man within him."

Does this mean that another "person" was placed in man by Jehovah God ? No. Rather, it means that Jehovah placed a life force within him, to activate him, to give him life, just as Jehovah has a life force within him that is able to create everything we see, extending beyond himself to any place in the universe, unlike man who spirit goes no further than as far as his hands can reach.

At Genesis 2:7, it says: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became (not placed within as something mysteriously separate, as the churches of Christendom teach) a living soul."(King James Bible)

Only when "the breath of life" was put within the first man Adam, could he now become a "living soul", for before the breath of life that started the life force (like turning on the "start" switch on an electrical appliance) was placed within Adam, he was a dead soul.(Note: the Hebrew word for soul is nephesh, that literally means "a breather", so that when anything that is "a breather", stops breathing and no longer taking in "life-giving" oxygen, they die)

Of John the Baptist, Luke 1:14, says that "he will be filled with with holy spirit even from before birth", being moved from before birth to feel its force (see Luke 1:41 that says that "as Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the infant in her womb leaped, and Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit"), so that when grown (or about 30 years old), he went forward to fulfill his assigned role as the one who "will go ahead of him (or the Messiah) with Elijah's spirit and power".(Luke 1:17; Note: power is directly tied in with spirit here, denoting that it is a power that moved John the Baptist to do Jehovah's will by preparing a people in advance of the Messiah just as Elijah was moved by Jehovah's spirit to take his stand for Jehovah on Mt Carmel before an audience of Baal worshippers; see 1 Kings 18)

Of John the Baptist father, Zechariah, Luke 1:67 says that he was "filled holy spirit" so that he was moved to say: "Let Jehovah be praised, the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention to his people and has brought them deliverance........But as for you, young child, you will be called a prophet of the Most High, for you will go ahead of Jehovah to prepare his ways (Isa 40:3), to give knowledge of salvation to his people by forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender compassion of our God. With this compassion a daybreak will visit us from on high, to give light to those sitting in darkness and death’s shadow and to guide our feet in the way of peace.”(Luke 1:68, 76-79)

If the word "spirit" is a person, or another "God" as many suppose, then how could Jesus be "full of holy spirit" ?(Luke 4:1) Could Jesus be filled with another "member of the Godhead", another "God" ? Is that reasonable ? No.(Note: the English word "Godhead" is a mistranslation of three Greek words (1) theotes at Col 2:9, (2) theiotes at Romans 1:20, and (3) and theion at Acts 17:29, for all three Greek words are accurately rendered as "divine quality", "Godship" or "Divine Being")

Rather, Jesus was filled with Jehovah's active force, a force that gave Jesus the power to heal people (Matt 8:1-17; 9:35; Luke 8:43-48), to resurrect them from the dead.(Luke 7:11-15; John 11:38-44), to cause a fig tree to wither.(Matt 21:19; Note: please remember what Ps 104:30 says: "If you send out your spirit, they are created", or that a person or "living creature" comes to life, having a life force or the flow or movement of elements within a person as "one" that causes them to start breathing, such as the heart pumping blood for oxygen and foods throughout the body, and not another person is place within them)

At 2 Peter 1:21, it says that "prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit." With Jesus using the Greek word pneuma as both "wind" and "spirit" at John 3:8, he established that it means an unseen force that produces visible results.

Just as gravity, electromagnetism, the Higgs field, the weak and strong nuclear force, etc, the wind are unseen forces that moves things, so likewise of God's holy spirit.

And the name Jehovah is in the Bible some 7,000 times, some 2,000 times more than God and Lord put to together.

The name Jehovah is in the King James Bible four times (1) Ex 6:3, (2) Ps 83:18, (3) Isa 12:2, (4) Isa 26:4. The 2011 Divine Name King James Bible rightfully has it some 7,000 times where it is found in the most ancient Hebrew manuscripts. The 1903 American Standard Version likewise has it as the same.

The New World Translation has it 6,979 times in the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly but inaccurately called "the Old Testament") and 237 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly but inaccurately called "the New Testament"), when quoting from the Hebrew Scriptures or it is seen as accurate.
Scripture only speaks of 'force' as a natural thing of natural man and of an unnatural beast:

And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. (Deut 34)

Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. (Job 40)

Even as they change the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image like corruptible man, so you change the glory of the Spirit into that a mere force of nature.

And with this force you swear by, your mind is become full of wearisome carnal arguments, that can't get the simplest things of Scripture right:

commonly but inaccurately called "the Old Testament" ...commonly but inaccurately called "the New Testament"

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament.

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.


You are so blind to Scripture, that you force Scripture and the Spirit of God entirely out of your mind and carnally vain arguments.

And the name Jehovah is in the Bible some 7,000 times, some 2,000 times more than God and Lord put to together.

And never again in Scripture, after calling Him Jesus, Who's name is above every name, including the name He called Himself to Moses as Jehovah, by which name He was not known to Abraham.

The Jews need the vail of Moses taken away by Christ, and you need the vail of Jehovah taken away by Jesus.

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Bible uses the words "the spirit of God" and not "the spirit is God", as well as "God is a Spirit" at John 4:24 (denoting that God is not fleshly, but is an unseen spirit, in which humans cannot peer into the spirit realm with their eyes).

For example, the Scriptures uses the words "the spirit of man" at Zechariah 12:1 that says: "A pronouncement: “The word of Jehovah concerning Israel,” declares Jehovah, the One who stretched out the heavens, who laid the foundation of the earth, and who formed the spirit of man within him."

Does this mean that another "person" was placed in man by Jehovah God ? No. Rather, it means that Jehovah placed a life force within him, to activate him, to give him life, just as Jehovah has a life force within him that is able to create everything we see, extending beyond himself to any place in the universe, unlike man who spirit goes no further than as far as his hands can reach.

At Genesis 2:7, it says: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became (not placed within as something mysteriously separate, as the churches of Christendom teach) a living soul."(King James Bible)

Only when "the breath of life" was put within the first man Adam, could he now become a "living soul", for before the breath of life that started the life force (like turning on the "start" switch on an electrical appliance) was placed within Adam, he was a dead soul.(Note: the Hebrew word for soul is nephesh, that literally means "a breather", so that when anything that is "a breather", stops breathing and no longer taking in "life-giving" oxygen, they die)

Of John the Baptist, Luke 1:14, says that "he will be filled with with holy spirit even from before birth", being moved from before birth to feel its force (see Luke 1:41 that says that "as Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the infant in her womb leaped, and Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit"), so that when grown (or about 30 years old), he went forward to fulfill his assigned role as the one who "will go ahead of him (or the Messiah) with Elijah's spirit and power".(Luke 1:17; Note: power is directly tied in with spirit here, denoting that it is a power that moved John the Baptist to do Jehovah's will by preparing a people in advance of the Messiah just as Elijah was moved by Jehovah's spirit to take his stand for Jehovah on Mt Carmel before an audience of Baal worshippers; see 1 Kings 18)

Of John the Baptist father, Zechariah, Luke 1:67 says that he was "filled holy spirit" so that he was moved to say: "Let Jehovah be praised, the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention to his people and has brought them deliverance........But as for you, young child, you will be called a prophet of the Most High, for you will go ahead of Jehovah to prepare his ways (Isa 40:3), to give knowledge of salvation to his people by forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender compassion of our God. With this compassion a daybreak will visit us from on high, to give light to those sitting in darkness and death’s shadow and to guide our feet in the way of peace.”(Luke 1:68, 76-79)

If the word "spirit" is a person, or another "God" as many suppose, then how could Jesus be "full of holy spirit" ?(Luke 4:1) Could Jesus be filled with another "member of the Godhead", another "God" ? Is that reasonable ? No.(Note: the English word "Godhead" is a mistranslation of three Greek words (1) theotes at Col 2:9, (2) theiotes at Romans 1:20, and (3) and theion at Acts 17:29, for all three Greek words are accurately rendered as "divine quality", "Godship" or "Divine Being")

Rather, Jesus was filled with Jehovah's active force, a force that gave Jesus the power to heal people (Matt 8:1-17; 9:35; Luke 8:43-48), to resurrect them from the dead.(Luke 7:11-15; John 11:38-44), to cause a fig tree to wither.(Matt 21:19; Note: please remember what Ps 104:30 says: "If you send out your spirit, they are created", or that a person or "living creature" comes to life, having a life force or the flow or movement of elements within a person as "one" that causes them to start breathing, such as the heart pumping blood for oxygen and foods throughout the body, and not another person is place within them)

At 2 Peter 1:21, it says that "prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit." With Jesus using the Greek word pneuma as both "wind" and "spirit" at John 3:8, he established that it means an unseen force that produces visible results.

Just as gravity, electromagnetism, the Higgs field, the weak and strong nuclear force, etc, the wind are unseen forces that moves things, so likewise of God's holy spirit.

And the name Jehovah is in the Bible some 7,000 times, some 2,000 times more than God and Lord put to together.

The name Jehovah is in the King James Bible four times (1) Ex 6:3, (2) Ps 83:18, (3) Isa 12:2, (4) Isa 26:4. The 2011 Divine Name King James Bible rightfully has it some 7,000 times where it is found in the most ancient Hebrew manuscripts. The 1903 American Standard Version likewise has it as the same.

The New World Translation has it 6,979 times in the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly but inaccurately called "the Old Testament") and 237 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly but inaccurately called "the New Testament"), when quoting from the Hebrew Scriptures or it is seen as accurate.
for before the breath of life that started the life force (like turning on the "start" switch on an electrical appliance) was placed within Adam, he was a dead soul.

He wasn't a soul at all. Just a body formed from dust. Even as a body was prepared for the God of Israel to come down from heaven and be born of a woman on earth. His living soul came with Him. He had Life in Himself. He did not need the Father to breathe into His nostrils the breath of Life.

The Holy Spirit overshadowed the woman, that she would conceive without the corrupted blood of sinful man.

And the Holy Ghost is a Person, and not a force, because Mary was not forced to conceive, and a force only forces, because it has no mind to consider how to do something, especially when it comes to handling human beings.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

A force doesn't speak, but the Spirit of God does speak to us expressly, that some would even say He is not a person, but just a force.

If the word "spirit" is a person, or another "God" as many suppose, then how could Jesus be "full of holy spirit" ?

The same way He is filled with all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Col 2), which body we are of His and are filled with all the fullness of God. (Eph 3)

The Godhead is God, not a force. And the Godhead is expressly given by Scripture, because there are three therein, else there would be no need for referring to the Godhead of God, if God were only One Person and had only one Head.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11)
 
  • Like
Reactions: GRACE ambassador

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Care to share the scripture that states that? Or are you quoting Church doctrine? The scripture states, "Jehovah is the true God;" (Jeremiah 10:10)

Now, can you quote where in the Bible it states the trinity is the true God?
So is the trinity a True God or a False God?
Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:25)

The Father was the only true God remaining in heaven, while the Son was on earth. (John 17)

The Spirit of Life is the living and true God. (1 Thess 1:9) The Spirit is life (Rom 8:10), not a force.

Therefore the Spirit speaks:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come.


A force doesn't say anything, especially not 'come'.

But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king.

And Jesus is the only One called King and Lord of lords. Not the Father, nor the Spirit.

The LORD Jehovah therefore became the Lord Jesus, when He was born of a woman on earth.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,460
31,581
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree with your point: false doctrine is usually something that must be 'taught', because it is not readily seen in Scripture.

And so you have it backwards, in this case.

The real question is how any child could be reading the Gospels, with Jesus referring to His Father in heaven, and think they are the same Person.

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

We should never stop coming to the Scriptures as little children, ready to read what is plainly written with the normal sense of a child.
You say that false doctrine must be taught. The same thing would be true of correct doctrine. What we receive really depends upon who is the teacher and whether or not we have the "ears to hear" of which Jesus spoke:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matt 13:13

Who hears with the understanding the parables?
Give God the glory!
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,460
31,581
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree that the argument of Oneness and Trinity is not essential to saving faith in Jesus Christ, even as it is not necessary for fulfilling the royal law of loving our neighbors by the faith of Jesus from a pure heart.

It is a good Scriptural dispute to try a believer's grasp of God's Word, which is fine in itself.

But nothing to deny fellowship over.
And then again see how it all works when you've been around for another 17 years! [I am 77.]
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You say that false doctrine must be taught. The same thing would be true of correct doctrine. What we receive really depends upon who is the teacher and whether or not we have the "ears to hear" of which Jesus spoke:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matt 13:13

Who hears with the understanding the parables?
Give God the glory!
You didn't respond. No problem. It is much more obvious to believe Jesus and His Father are not the same Person, by simple childlike reading of the gospels.

Normally false doctrine must be taught by man, because Scripture does not readily show it as such.