The Case For The Triune GodHead!

[robert derrick]

Lets handle the "if" first...

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So yes, God was manifest in the flesh. Second, who raised him from the dead?

Acts 4:10 KJV
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

I am not going to ignore this verse, and there are at least 8 others that say God raised him. However:

John 2:19 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

He also said:

John 10:18 KJV
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And you will find many other verses or sets of verses like this. Jesus said thing's like "my Father's spirit" and then claimed it was his spirit. He said the Holy Spirit would come to them and then said he himself would come to them. But for this incident, I have no problem with the Bible saying God raised him because I believe Jesus was God.


Who says he can't? If he can't, then was there no God in heaven when he was manifest in the flesh like 1 Tim 3:16 says? Was there no God in heaven for 33 years?

My belief is that God can manifest himself in many ways and yes... Be in two different places at the same time. Isn't God "everywhere"? And with that, that is my answer to your other questions.

You make a good case for God the Son and God the Father and God the Spirit.

God the Word was manifest in the flesh. And the Word was with God the Father in the beginning.

The Word became a man and has a soul: the man Christ Jesus.

I see no Scripture of the Father nor the Spirit having a soul, nor are they a resurrected man.

God the Son also prayed on earth to the Father in heaven.

When Scripture says there are now three in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, a normal sensible reading would be trhee persons. 'Manifestations' would be adding to the Scripture.

God is everywhere by His Spirit, and He is the One doing all the work of God as commanded by the Father and the Son.

And there are some things that only the Father knows, and the Son will not know, until the Father commands it:

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

Neither do we, nor the angels, nor the Son know the exact time of His own coming. Only the Father.

 

[robert derrick]

Lets handle the "if" first...

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So yes, God was manifest in the flesh. Second, who raised him from the dead?

Acts 4:10 KJV
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

I am not going to ignore this verse, and there are at least 8 others that say God raised him. However:

John 2:19 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

He also said:

John 10:18 KJV
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And you will find many other verses or sets of verses like this. Jesus said thing's like "my Father's spirit" and then claimed it was his spirit. He said the Holy Spirit would come to them and then said he himself would come to them. But for this incident, I have no problem with the Bible saying God raised him because I believe Jesus was God.


Who says he can't? If he can't, then was there no God in heaven when he was manifest in the flesh like 1 Tim 3:16 says? Was there no God in heaven for 33 years?

My belief is that God can manifest himself in many ways and yes... Be in two different places at the same time. Isn't God "everywhere"? And with that, that is my answer to your other questions.

Be in two different places at the same time. Isn't God "everywhere"?

If the One Single God is 'everywhere', then He is never in a different place.

 

[robert derrick]

So:
The Father is God.
The Son (Jesus Christ) is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.

That's a given.
But are they the same person? The Modalist believes they are the one person manifest in three ways. But the Bible describes them as three separate persons. So, if the Bible describes them as three separate persons, then they are. But they are not three Gods. The oneness of God are the three persons totally linked through absolutely unity of heart, mind, and purpose. We know that God can do anything, but He is not a shape-shifter.

We know that God can do anything, but He is not a shape-shifter.

But the Olympians were.

Can't the true God do what the Olympians could?

 

[robert derrick]

First off, the Bible describes them as one "person" (as you presume) just as much as it describes them as separate. I gave you examples, even.

Second, you aren't addressing the main point, but instead are chipping off things you think you can combat against. Are you denying that the Bible says God was manifest in the flesh? Are you denying that Jesus said HE would raise himself up? And your arguments against what I state aren't even biblical. "God doesn't manifest himself in two ways at the same time!", "God isn't a shape shifter!" (He's a spirit! He can take on whatever shape he wants or things that don't even have a shape, like a small still voice). In short, I can back up everything I say with the Bible, while you still haven't answered who rose Jesus.

Third, I am presuming (maybe incorrectly) that you view me as a modelist. You are of the opinion that modelists aren't saved because modelists worship another God and another Jesus because they refuse to believe God is three different persons.

I will just let that be as it is...

First off, the Bible describes them as one "person" (as you presume) just as much as it describes them as separate.

Using the word separate is inaccurately based upon your own opinion of the doctrine of the three Persons that are one (1 John 5:7). Different doesn't mean separate. There is no separation between them, because they are perfect in union together.

They can't be one and the same Person; otherwise, you and I would need become one and the same Person and the same member of His body, in order to be one even as the Father and the Son are one. (John 17: ).

The God Who is 'everywhere' is the One in heaven and in earth: the Holy Ghost. The Spirit. (1 John 5:7-8)

The Father and the Son are both sitting in the throne of God in heaven, and the Son's natural body is in earth, with many of His souls before the altar in heaven waiting on us. (Rev 6:9)

He's a spirit! He can take on whatever shape he wants or things that don't even have a shape, like a small still voice.

God the Spirit is a Spirit. God the Son is a resurrected man. And God the Father sits on His throne, where He has always sat, and will remaining sitting with the Son forever in the new heaven and new earth, after the Son has reigned on the earth for a thousand years.

What Scripture has Him in different 'shapes'. He came down from heaven upon the Son in bodily shape like a dove. Not in the shape of a dove.

God has only one physical shape and image, which man is made in.

The Son is now and forever a man in bodily shape. And the wounds of His resurrected body are still on Him for all to see in heaven, even as they were for Thomas to touch. (Rev 5:6)

The Spirit of God is not a voice. He speaks expressly with a voice. (1 Tim 4:1)

Third, I am presuming (maybe incorrectly) that you view me as a modelist. You are of the opinion that modelists aren't saved because modelists worship another God and another Jesus because they refuse to believe God is three different persons.

A little confused maybe about Scripture, but still saved.

 

[Wrangler]

You are disingenuously trying to make 'distinct' the same as 'separate'.

Oy vey! Trinitarian doctrine is illogical and forces its advocates to argue for illogical things, like parse synonyms and treat paired objects as a single object.

Besides the above absurdity is to abuse language in denying ALL Father-Son relationships are not fully equal. A lack of full equality IS a lack of equality. Trinitarians argue what failed in the 20th century: the separate but equal contradiction.

There is only one God and it is Jesus' God. See John 17:3 & John 20:17. God chose Jesus, who submitted to the will of God. And God raised Jesus from the dead.


All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ ... And give thanks for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3, 5:20

For he has set a day for judging the world with justice by the man he has appointed, and he proved to everyone who this is by raising him from the dead.
Acts 17:31

 

[Wrangler]

They are also the same in nature

They are NOT the same nature. Jesus died and is flesh. God never died and is spirit.

It's just when people go off the rails into an heretical and cultish doctrine that the Son is a created being

Language usage. All sons are created beings from their father.

 

[robert derrick]

Oy vey! Trinitarian doctrine is illogical and forces its advocates to argue for illogical things, like parse synonyms and treat paired objects as a single object.

Besides the above absurdity is to abuse language in denying ALL Father-Son relationships are not fully equal. A lack of full equality IS a lack of equality. Trinitarians argue what failed in the 20th century: the separate but equal contradiction.

There is only one God and it is Jesus' God. See John 17:3 & John 20:17. God chose Jesus, who submitted to the will of God. And God raised Jesus from the dead.


All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ ... And give thanks for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3, 5:20

For he has set a day for judging the world with justice by the man he has appointed, and he proved to everyone who this is by raising him from the dead.
Acts 17:31

Besides the above absurdity is to abuse language

So, what was that rephrasing of the Word was God, that was used to deny the Word was God?

Maybe I can go find it.

It was a hoot.

The God of Israel called Jehovah was then called Jesus, when He came down from heaven to become flesh on earth.

So that as the resurrected man in heaven, His name is above every name: Jesus.

 

[robert derrick]

They are NOT the same nature. Jesus died and is flesh. God never died and is spirit.



Language usage. All sons are created beings from their father.

Jesus died and is flesh.

Since you can't even get this part right, why do you think you can get anything right?

Since Jesus is now the resurrected man Christ Jesus, He is not flesh.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

He is the risen again God of Israel.

No more known by His name Jehovah in all of Scripture since named Jesus.

No LORD. No Jehovah. No Yahweh.

Just Jesus the Lamb, The Father, and The Holy Ghost.

 

[Wrangler]

So, what was that rephrasing of the Word was God

Appeal to Strawman. No one ever said the only way to abuse language was to rephrase source material.

It’s such a funny debate tactic to ask me to demonstrate what I just demonstrated in my previous post!

Abuse of Language. Jesus died. Scripture never, not once says God the Son. Sons are created by their fathers who are not the same age as the son.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus died and is flesh.

Since you can't even get this part right, why do you think you can get anything right?

Since Jesus is now the resurrected man Christ Jesus, He is not flesh.

LOL. It is you who can’t even get this part right! The resurrected Jesus did not become a ghost but rose bodily. The famous doubting Thomas testified to this basic fact.

It’s so odd that you pull out some vague verse claiming it as an explicit confirmation of the trinity doctrine when it is nothing of the kind. Can you even admit there are numerous other VALID interpretations of what you wrote in red?

 

[robert derrick]

LOL. It is you who can’t even get this part right! The resurrected Jesus did not become a ghost but rose bodily. The famous doubting Thomas testified to this basic fact.

It’s so odd that you pull out some vague verse claiming it as an explicit confirmation of the trinity doctrine when it is nothing of the kind. Can you even admit there are numerous other VALID interpretations of what you wrote in red?

The resurrected Jesus did not become a ghost but rose bodily.

So, I have to explain it even further for you.

Jesus has indeed risen bodily, which means He is no more flesh and blood as we are, and as He was.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. We do not rise in flesh and blood, but are sown in mortal bodies and risen in immortal spiritual bodies.

You need to at least try to stop thinking with a carnal mind.

Can you even admit there are numerous other VALID interpretations of what you wrote in red?

Not if they lead to a created and false christ. Of course not.

 

[robert derrick]

Appeal to Strawman. No one ever said the only way to abuse language was to rephrase source material.

It’s such a funny debate tactic to ask me to demonstrate what I just demonstrated in my previous post!

Abuse of Language. Jesus died. Scripture never, not once says God the Son. Sons are created by their fathers who are not the same age as the son.

Sons are created by their fathers who are not the same age as the son.

Using a carnal analogy of a carnal mind does not help your case.

Then again, it's because of your case, that you think with a carnal mind.

Scripture never, not once says God the Son.

Scripture never calls the LORD the Father. Nor our LORD and Father.

And since Scripture does say Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life. So, I'll say Jesus Christ the Son and true God from now on.

But there is nothing in Scripture to ever suggest the LORD Jehovah was or is the Father, because He became the Son on the earth, which is why His name was also the everlasting Father and Prince of Peace.

Not because Jesus is the everlasting Father, but is just like Him, so as they are each seen in the other: like father, like Son.

 

[robert derrick]

Appeal to Strawman. No one ever said the only way to abuse language was to rephrase source material.

It’s such a funny debate tactic to ask me to demonstrate what I just demonstrated in my previous post!

Abuse of Language. Jesus died. Scripture never, not once says God the Son. Sons are created by their fathers who are not the same age as the son.

Appeal to Strawman. No one ever said the only way to abuse language was to rephrase source material.

No, I appeal for the rewriting of the Scripture, to remember it.

It was really something. It was like a whole sentence in order to change four words.

Much simpler just to keep it as written: The Word was God

 

[FHII]

When Scripture says there are now three in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, a normal sensible reading would be trhee persons. 'Manifestations' would be adding to the Scripture.

That is flat out backwards. First off, it doesn't just say there are 3 in heaven:

1 John 5:7-8 KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. [8] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

3 does not equal one. Yes, I included the next verse... Might as well, since it would be brought up. There are 3 that bear witness in the earth (the flesh). That was Jesus (the Word made flesh) He had the spirit (truth) the water which (which you will never thirst again) and of course, HIS blood. And if you think that is far fetched, read verse 6. Maybe Jesus himself was a trinity! Maybe the Holy Ghost was too... The spirit of truth, the comforter and the Dove. But I digress... It is in debate that the proper reading is 3 persons. THAT is adding to the scripture!

Second, I have a verse that says God was manifest in the flesh... I gave it to you so no: it is not adding to the scripture.

We know that God can do anything, but He is not a shape-shifter.

But the Olympians were.

Can't the true God do what the Olympians could?

Umm... No, the Olympians were not shape shifters. They weren't even real.

Second, who said anything about shape shifting? I never said he was... I was saying he manifested himself. I do have scripture that he manifested himself in the flesh, as a voice and as a small still voice. Furthermore, I have scripture that indirectly says he could manifest himself in a storm, in fire, in wind and in an earthquake. I do have scripture that says the glory of the Lord and the Lord himself appear in a cloud.

Third, again... Who say the Lord can't shape shift? That's tour rule, not God's. But then again... Never did I say he did.

The Son is now and forever a man in bodily shape. And the wounds of His resurrected body are still on Him for all to see in heaven, even as they were for Thomas to touch. (Rev 5:6)

Oh really?
John 17:5 KJV
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Is that request going to be honored? Jesus was the word and became flesh. He was asking to become the word again. But no... Perhaps he will always have the nail prints. Furthermore, what is the body of Christ now? Its one body with many members. That is how Jesus is manifest today.

Third, I am presuming (maybe incorrectly) that you view me as a modelist. You are of the opinion that modelists aren't saved because modelists worship another God and another Jesus because they refuse to believe God is three different persons.

A little confused maybe about Scripture, but still saved.

My mistake.. That was a different, more cranky Trinitarian. But thanks... But while I have much to learn, what I do know I don't believe I have confused.

 

[tigger 2]

Post #152 above:

“Scripture never calls the LORD the Father. Nor our LORD and Father.

And since Scripture does say Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life. So, I'll say Jesus Christ the Son and true God from now on.”

….…………………………………

Ps. 89:26 “He shall cry unto me, Thou art my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.” - ASV.

Is. 64:8 “But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.” - ASV.

 

[Paul Christensen]

We know that God can do anything, but He is not a shape-shifter.

But the Olympians were.

Can't the true God do what the Olympians could?

When is a door not a door?

When it is ajar.

 

[tigger 2]

FHII wrote:

1 John 5:7-8 KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. [8] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
....
Second, I have a verse that says God was manifest in the flesh... I gave it to you so no: it is not adding to the scripture.
...........................................
Both of your verses are spurious.
Look at other translations (not those few based on the TR). 1 John 5:7 was added even though the translators of the KJV knew it was spurious. Look at most modern commentaries for this verse.

1 Tim 3:16 was changed by a copiest from "who was manifest...." to "God was manifest...." See most modern translations and commentaries.

"Without any doubt, the mystery of our religion is great: He was revealed in flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory." - NRSV.

 

[FHII]

FHII wrote:

1 John 5:7-8 KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. [8] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
....
Second, I have a verse that says God was manifest in the flesh... I gave it to you so no: it is not adding to the scripture.
...........................................
Both of your verses are spurious.
Look at other translations (not those few based on the TR). 1 John 5:7 was added even though the translators of the KJV knew it was spurious. Look at most modern commentaries for this verse.

1 Tim 3:16 was changed by a copiest from "who was manifest...." to "God was manifest...." See most modern translations and commentaries.

"Without any doubt, the mystery of our religion is great: He was revealed in flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory." - NRSV.

Alright Tigger... Attack tbe translation! I don't want to, but we can go down that road!

I have posted this philosophy before, but will do it again. I stick with the KJV. I have studied the history of Bibles and that is where I stand. However, I am not one who won't appease others who go by a different Bible. I am KJV only, but not to the point that I will not acknowledge other versions.

I only ask one thing: choose ONE. Just one!

If you feel I am wrong on these verses, give me your ONE Bible version that has it right! I will look at it and operate in that version.

What I hate is Bible hoppers who go to the KJV for one verse, the NIV for another verse and don't stop there until they get a list of scriptures from a plethora of versions that fit their religious philosophy.

The Word of God is supposed to shape us. Not the other way around. So if you feel that the KJV is wrong, then give me your ONE translation that is right. I will meet you there.

But if you say, "well, no one translation is right!" Then I am dealing with your opinion. Ole Deerick likes to talk about "shape shifting"! Well, when you bible hop, you are dealing in a really evil shape shifting which is making the Word fit your philosophy.

 

[Wrangler]

Using a carnal analogy of a carnal mind does not help your case.

It totally helps my case! All you can do is assert rules do not apply to trinitarianism in a pathetic Appeal to Ignorance:
Definition
Logic
Language Usage.

Yes, Sons are created by their fathers who are not the same age as the son. Definition. Logic. Language Usage in Spiritual and all other applications of human and divine endeavors.

 

[Wrangler]

Scripture never calls the LORD the Father.

Never claimed it did.

It calls God the Father. It calls the Father God. It calls The LORD God. Never the son any of these things.