The Case For The Triune GodHead!

[Paul Christensen]

Yes, I get the drift of your error: You are disingenuously trying to make 'distinct' the same as 'separate'. They are not. There is a distinct difference between two, but that is not the same as distinctly separate.

In a marriage two are distinct persons but not separate, as in separated. When they separate, either by death of by desertion, then no more marriage. Marriage before God is dependent on two people (man and woman) becoming one: one flesh. So with God, two distinct persons, Father and Son, One God. I and the Father are One. Not the same Person, but 2 distinct Persons perfect in unity.

They are also the same in nature: divine everlasting nature, of which we partake in Jesus (2 Peter 1), neither being 'created'. Each is the true God. Each a distinct Person in the Godhead, each being of the same divine and eternal nature.

Your confusion which causes you to rant in a confused way at the end, is due to your basic error of a Spiritually Scriptural doctrine of the Godhead. In the Spirit, nothing is impossible with God. But the carnal mind gets confused by such things, when it tries to compute it physically and carnally.

But, that's ok. You don't have to necessarily believe the Godhead as 3 Persons, so long as you are firm of faith in Jesus as Lord and God.

I.e. you can be 'Oneness', as in only One Person in the the Godhead, and the Son and the Father are the same Person, and still be headed to glory. Even though Oneness is false. We are to be one, even as the Son and the Father are one (John 17), and therefore the Father and the Son must be 2 Peron's in unity, because Jesus is not praying that I will be you, and you me, as though the Son were the Father, and the Father is the Son...

It's just when people go off the rails into an heretical and cultish doctrine that the Son is a created being or 'god', well, that's when people go off into an heretical and cultish doctrine.

Modalists are not saved. To be saved, one must believe that Jesus as a real person died on the cross to pay the debt of sin to take upon Himself the eternal wrath of the Father. If there was no Father, and Jesus was just a manifestation of God, then this manifestation paid the debt and took the wrath of Himself upon Himself. Not logical. Also, to be saved, one must have a mediator between God and man. But a manifestation of God can't mediate with Himself. Also, he can't be an advocate for believers before Himself. Being a mediator and advocate requires more than just one person. But the advocacy and mediatorship of Christ are essential for salvation. Also a manifestation of God cannot offer up His blood to Himself. The Bible says that Jesus offered up His blood to the Father in the heavenly holy of holies. Therefore, Jesus being just a manifestation of a one-Person God is a total denial of written Scripture. There is no way that a person can believe in a one-Person God in three manifestations, and be saved.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Robert, if you want to call what I had to say disingenuous and a rant that is fine. I didn't intend either, although i could easily charge you with the same.

Furthermore, you have done the same as many others before you: trying to draw parallels which don't fit properly to prove the trinity theory. Man and woman are one flesh: true. Jesus and the Father and the Holy Ghost aren't married though. Jesus and the Church are married and one flesh and spirit. Even with that, spiritually I wouldn't call them distinct OR separate. And frankly, anyone who calls a husband and wife or Jesus and his Church distinct or separate is lacking in spiritual thinking.

Trinitarians chose to call the separate or distinct persons... Fine, I do not and I have plenty of verses to back me up.

If the Bible says that God raised Christ from the dead, then if Christ was just a manifestation of God in the grave, who raised Him from the dead then? If the sole manifestation of God is the Father in heaven at this time, who is mediating between you and the Father? Who is your advocate in heaven. God can't exist in two manifestations at once, and Christ is your advocate, who is He advocating to - Himself? Or if the manifestation is the Father, where is the advocate or mediator? And yet, without effective mediation and advocacy you cannot be saved.

Other questions:
At the baptism of Jesus by John, where did the voice from heaven come from?
At the transfiguration, who said, "This is my beloved Son, hear Him." while Jesus was right there with Elijah and Moses?
Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemone? And whose will was He complying with when He said, "Not my will, but Thine be done"? He can't be complying to His own will because He clearly said that He was going to deny His own will in favour of the will of someone else. And who is "The Father" whom Jesus referred to when He said that He came to do what the Father told Him?

 

[robert derrick]

Modalists are not saved. To be saved, one must believe that Jesus as a real person died on the cross to pay the debt of sin to take upon Himself the eternal wrath of the Father. If there was no Father, and Jesus was just a manifestation of God, then this manifestation paid the debt and took the wrath of Himself upon Himself. Not logical. Also, to be saved, one must have a mediator between God and man. But a manifestation of God can't mediate with Himself. Also, he can't be an advocate for believers before Himself. Being a mediator and advocate requires more than just one person. But the advocacy and mediatorship of Christ are essential for salvation. Also a manifestation of God cannot offer up His blood to Himself. The Bible says that Jesus offered up His blood to the Father in the heavenly holy of holies. Therefore, Jesus being just a manifestation of a one-Person God is a total denial of written Scripture. There is no way that a person can believe in a one-Person God in three manifestations, and be saved.

But a manifestation of God can't mediate with Himself.

Excellent point.

All of this 'manifesting himself' at different times in different ways is like the ancient gods that used to 'manifest themselves' as a swan or shower of gold...

Jesus declared the Father and showed the Father as a perfect Son would. He was not the Father in the flesh, nor did the Father die for our sins.

What's a 'modalist'?

 

[MatthewG]

Believing in the trinity doesn’t save a person.

Jesus Christ having faith in Him and believing God. Is how a person is saved by grace through faith. No man can boast or point fingers at another as though they are better than them because all are justified in the same way.

Faith in the life, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

There is no other way to please God…

Knowing the trinity which is something no one can grasp anyway doesn’t make you right with God.

Faith in Jesus does. It’s almost to simple to accept for some.

 

[Truman]

The triune godhead...I dunno about some of our terminology. One could think that God has 3 heads! Lol

 

[Abaxvahl]

Believing in the trinity doesn’t save a person.

Jesus Christ having faith in Him and believing God. Is how a person is saved by grace through faith. No man can boast or point fingers at another as though they are better than them because all are justified in the same way.

Faith in the life, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

There is no other way to please God…

Knowing the trinity which is something no one can grasp anyway doesn’t make you right with God.

Faith in Jesus does. It’s almost to simple to accept for some.

If a person thinks Jesus was really a dog masquerading as a human do they know who He is to have faith in Him?

 

[Pearl]

There is no 'case' to answer - It's true.

 

[MatthewG]

There is the Bible to look at @Abaxvahl.

I’ve heard people tell me Jesus was a pedophile who touched kids… does that make Jesus really a pedophile? What does the Bible suggest?

 

[Abaxvahl]

What does the Bible suggest?

That Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity who assumed a human nature in His Incarnation. If a person has to believe what the Bible suggests (in other words the Apostolic Faith) then they should in fact believe precisely what Trinitarians (that is Christian believers, holders of the Apostolic Faith) believe about Him.

Can you really say that you believe in a Person when you deny what that Person is?

 

[MatthewG]

Not worried about any of that friend.

Yes God, Gods Word, Gods Spirit are all one in purpose to me and make up the realities of Heaven.

Then you have God, Word made flesh Jesus, and Gods spirit again.

I don’t care about the trinity in all honesty.

What makes me personally right with God is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ came who, came, died, was buried and resurrected and because of that and Jesus and his righteousness makes a person right with God.

Not trying to box in a belief that people must accept to be right with what your interpretation and suggest is.

You believe in the trinity great… what does it do for you by exclaiming it over and over and over exactly? Only the person knows. That is between them and God.

My purpose is to remind you that anyone who believes, on the Lord Jesus Christ who, came, died, was buried and resurrected again is what makes a person right with God.

Nothing else, period.

@Abaxvahl take care, and God bless.

 

[Paul Christensen]

But a manifestation of God can't mediate with Himself.

Excellent point.

All of this 'manifesting himself' at different times in different ways is like the ancient gods that used to 'manifest themselves' as a swan or shower of gold...

Jesus declared the Father and showed the Father as a perfect Son would. He was not the Father in the flesh, nor did the Father die for our sins.

What's a 'modalist'?

Modalism is a heresy that says that God is just one person and that He manifests in different modes, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament He manifested as Yahweh. In the New Testament He manifested as Jesus, and in the church He manifests as the Holy Spirit.

This is opposed to the Trinity, which shows God as one, but made up of three separate persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These are not three Gods, but one God in three persons, totally united in essence and purpose. At present, there is the Father in heaven, with the Son seated at His right hand, and the Holy Spirit Who dwells in every believer. The Modalist believes that there is no Father or Son in heaven, but the one Person of God is manifested as the indwelling Holy Spirit. They would teach that Jesus, in the form of the Holy Spirit is in us, misquoting the verse, "Christ in us, the hope of glory". In the same way that the Gnostics believe that Jesus didn't have a real physical body, but was some kind of "phantom", Modalists believe that Jesus was a manifestation of God, and that when the Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost, He changed His form into the Holy Spirit. Modalists treat God as a type of "shape-shifter" depending on which "mode" He decides to present Himself.

 

[FHII]

If the Bible says that God raised Christ from the dead, then if Christ was just a manifestation of God in the grave, who raised Him from the dead then?

Lets handle the "if" first...

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So yes, God was manifest in the flesh. Second, who raised him from the dead?

Acts 4:10 KJV
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

I am not going to ignore this verse, and there are at least 8 others that say God raised him. However:

John 2:19 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

He also said:

John 10:18 KJV
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And you will find many other verses or sets of verses like this. Jesus said thing's like "my Father's spirit" and then claimed it was his spirit. He said the Holy Spirit would come to them and then said he himself would come to them. But for this incident, I have no problem with the Bible saying God raised him because I believe Jesus was God.

God can't exist in two manifestations at once, and Christ is your advocate, who is He advocating to - Himself?

Who says he can't? If he can't, then was there no God in heaven when he was manifest in the flesh like 1 Tim 3:16 says? Was there no God in heaven for 33 years?

My belief is that God can manifest himself in many ways and yes... Be in two different places at the same time. Isn't God "everywhere"? And with that, that is my answer to your other questions.

 

[FHII]

But a manifestation of God can't mediate with Himself.

Well, he can council with himself, why couldn't he mediate within himself? This is more of the thinking that God can't be in two places at the same time.... I simply don't believe that.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Lets handle the "if" first...

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So yes, God was manifest in the flesh. Second, who raised him from the dead?

Acts 4:10 KJV
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

I am not going to ignore this verse, and there are at least 8 others that say God raised him. However:

John 2:19 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

He also said:

John 10:18 KJV
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And you will find many other verses or sets of verses like this. Jesus said thing's like "my Father's spirit" and then claimed it was his spirit. He said the Holy Spirit would come to them and then said he himself would come to them. But for this incident, I have no problem with the Bible saying God raised him because I believe Jesus was God.


Who says he can't? If he can't, then was there no God in heaven when he was manifest in the flesh like 1 Tim 3:16 says? Was there no God in heaven for 33 years?

My belief is that God can manifest himself in many ways and yes... Be in two different places at the same time. Isn't God "everywhere"? And with that, that is my answer to your other questions.

So:
The Father is God.
The Son (Jesus Christ) is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.

That's a given.
But are they the same person? The Modalist believes they are the one person manifest in three ways. But the Bible describes them as three separate persons. So, if the Bible describes them as three separate persons, then they are. But they are not three Gods. The oneness of God are the three persons totally linked through absolutely unity of heart, mind, and purpose. We know that God can do anything, but He is not a shape-shifter.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Well, he can council with himself, why couldn't he mediate within himself? This is more of the thinking that God can't be in two places at the same time.... I simply don't believe that.

Mediation is by definition between two persons at least. There is Council in God because there are Three Persons. This is not an issue of omnipresence. Do you believe that there are Three Divine Persons?

 

[FHII]

So:
The Father is God.
The Son (Jesus Christ) is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.

That's a given.
But are they the same person? The Modalist believes they are the one person manifest in three ways. But the Bible describes them as three separate persons. So, if the Bible describes them as three separate persons, then they are. But they are not three Gods. The oneness of God are the three persons totally linked through absolutely unity of heart, mind, and purpose. We know that God can do anything, but He is not a shape-shifter.

First off, the Bible describes them as one "person" (as you presume) just as much as it describes them as separate. I gave you examples, even.

Second, you aren't addressing the main point, but instead are chipping off things you think you can combat against. Are you denying that the Bible says God was manifest in the flesh? Are you denying that Jesus said HE would raise himself up? And your arguments against what I state aren't even biblical. "God doesn't manifest himself in two ways at the same time!", "God isn't a shape shifter!" (He's a spirit! He can take on whatever shape he wants or things that don't even have a shape, like a small still voice). In short, I can back up everything I say with the Bible, while you still haven't answered who rose Jesus.

Third, I am presuming (maybe incorrectly) that you view me as a modelist. You are of the opinion that modelists aren't saved because modelists worship another God and another Jesus because they refuse to believe God is three different persons.

I will just let that be as it is...

 

[farouk]

There is no 'case' to answer - It's true.

@Pearl The New Testament is full of God in Three Persons!

 

[robert derrick]

By Scripture we have:
1. God is a Spirit.
2. The Father is in heaven.
3. The Son has a soul.
4. The Father and the Son are one.
5. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost are one.
6. There are the Seven Spirits of God.
7. There is one Lord, one Spirit, and one God the Father.

The Son cannot be the Father nor the Spirit, because only the Son, the man Christ Jesus, has a soul.

The Father has never been on earth, nor will He until the new heaven and the new earth.

The different offices and operations argument can be applied to the Holy Spirit, called the Seven Spirits before the throne of God:

Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

He does the work of God at the commandment of the Word of God: Creation, new birth, intercession for the saints, healing, comforting, guiding into all truth, enlightening understanding, revelation, sanctification, giving of gifts, etc...

 

[robert derrick]

Believing in the trinity doesn’t save a person.

Jesus Christ having faith in Him and believing God. Is how a person is saved by grace through faith. No man can boast or point fingers at another as though they are better than them because all are justified in the same way.

Faith in the life, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

There is no other way to please God…

Knowing the trinity which is something no one can grasp anyway doesn’t make you right with God.

Faith in Jesus does. It’s almost to simple to accept for some.

It is true, that some 'doctrinal' differences are just doctrinal and prophetic, and so other than the exercise of disputing the Scriptures, there is nothing to lose fellowship over.

However, there is a certain sect that uses 'Oneness' to then preach a law of baptism over Acts 2:38, by which they judge all people as being saved or not, and so they cause real division in the body and practise false accusation of the brethren.

That is when a 'doctrinal difference' goes viral.

 

[robert derrick]

There is the Bible to look at @Abaxvahl.

I’ve heard people tell me Jesus was a pedophile who touched kids… does that make Jesus really a pedophile? What does the Bible suggest?

The Bible doesn't 'suggest' anything.

And there will always be pedophiles and homosexuals trying to make everyone else like themselves.