The Case For The Triune GodHead!

[tigger 2]

Noted Bible scholar Joseph H. Thayer gives these 5 meanings for the NT Greek word Pneuma (“spirit”):

“1. a movement of air, (gentle) blast.”.... “2. The spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated.”.... “3. a spirit [person], i.e., a simple essence, devoid of all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting....” [This definition includes] “c. a spirit[person] higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel.” “4. The Scriptures also ascribe a [pneuma] to GOD, i.e. God’s power and agency, - distinguishable in thought...from God’s essence [included in definition #3 above] in itself considered, - manifest in the course of affairs, and by its influence upon souls productive in the theocratic body (the church) of all the higher spiritual gifts and blessings.” [And] “5. Univ. the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of ANY ONE; the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.” - pp. 520-523.

Obviously, Holy Spirit is placed by Thayer under definition #4 above: “God’s power” not “God’s essence”! On p. 522, Thayer further defines this Spirit:

“The Holy Spirit is a dunamis [Gr. - ‘power’], and is expressly so called in Lk. xxiv. 49, and ... Lk. I. 35.”

Thayer also explains the occasional personification of this POWER from God:

“In some pass[ages] the Holy Spirit is rhetorically [‘used without regard to some actual condition or negating the literal significance of the statement’ - p. 1946, Webster’s 3rd New International Dictionary, 1962 ed.] represented as a Person...Jn. xiv. 16 sq. 26; xv. 26; xvi. 13-15 (in which pass[age] fr[om] Jn. the personification was suggested by the fact that the Holy Spirit was about to assume with the apostles the place of a person, namely of Christ)” [In other words the HS was personified in these passages because it was taking the place of a person in some respects.] - p. 522, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House, 1977 (10th printing, August 1984).

And Catholic Professor, John L. McKenzie, S.J., writes:
"It is the power which drives Jesus into the desert (Mk 1:12...) and the power by which Jesus expels demons (Mt 12:28; Lk 11:20 ...) ....

"In [Acts] the spirit is a divine, dynamic force;...."

In Paul's writings, "the spirit is basically the divine and heavenly dynamic force". - pp. 842, 843, Dictionary of the Bible, Macmillan Publ., 1979 ed.

 

[robert derrick]

............................................................
In the Old Testament (OT) it is clear that the inspired Bible writers intended holy spirit to be understood as an invisible, powerful force from God. Even many trinitarian scholars will admit that.

(We can even see the same understanding when the word “spirit” is used for the activating power or force used by other creatures. For example, Ezekiel 1:19, 20, speaking about the angels or cherubim who control the movement of God’s chariot, says literally, “and when the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels rose .... for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.” - RSV. It is clear that this means the controlling power of the cherubim moved the wheels. In fact the very trinitarian Good News Bible (GNB) paraphrases this to read: “the wheels did exactly what the creatures did, because the creatures controlled them.”)

For example, p. 269, The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1976, admits: “In the OT the Holy Spirit means a divine active power ...”

And the New Bible Dictionary, Tyndale House Publishers, 1984, pp. 1136, 1137, says:

“Spirit, Holy Spirit. OT, Heb. ruah 378 times...; NT, Gk. pneuma 379 times.” And “Divine power, where ruah is used to describe...a supernatural force....” And “At its [the Old Testament’s concept of God’s spirit] heart is the experience of a mysterious, awesome power - the mighty invisible force of the wind, the mystery of vitality, the otherly power that transforms - all ruah, all manifestations of divine energy.” And “at this early stage [pre-Christian] of understanding, God’s ruah was thought of simply as a supernatural power (under God’s authority) exerting force in some direction.”

The Encyclopedia Americana tells us:

“The doctrine of the Holy Spirit [as a person who is God] is a distinctly Christian one.... the Spirit of Jehovah [in the OT] is the active divine principle in nature. .... But it is in the New Testament [NT] that we find the bases of the doctrine of the Spirit’s personality.” And “Yet the early Church did not forthwith attain to a complete doctrine; nor was it, in fact, until after the essential divinity of Jesus had received full ecclesiastical sanction [in 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea] that the personality of the Spirit was explicitly recognized, and the doctrine of the Trinity formulated [381 A.D.].” Also, “It is better to regard the Spirit as the agency which, proceeding from the Father and the Son, dwells in the church as the witness and power of the life therein.” - v. 14, p. 326, 1957.

And Britannica agrees:

“The Hebrew word ruah (usually translated ‘spirit’) is often found in texts referring to the free and unhindered activity of God, .... There was, however, no explicit belief in a separate divine person in Biblical Judaism; in fact, the New Testament itself is not entirely clear in this regard....“The definition that the Holy Spirit was a distinct divine Person equal in substance to the Father and the Son and not subordinate to them came at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381....” - Encyclopedia Britannica Micropaedia, 1985, v. 6, p. 22.

Yes, not only did God’s people, as described in the OT, believe the holy spirit was an active force and not a person, but that same belief prevailed from the time of the NT writers up until at least 325 A. D. when the Roman Church officially accepted and began promoting its new doctrine. To bolster this NEW doctrine they went to the NT to find “proof.” That vague, ambiguous “proof” is what we will investigate in this study.

Many historians and Bible scholars (many of them trinitarians) freely admit the above truth. For example:

“On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the Spirit as a divine energy or power.” - A Catholic Dictionary.

“The majority of NT texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone” - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 575, Vol. 13, 1967.

“It is important to realize that for the first Christians the Spirit was thought of in terms of divine power.” - New Bible Dictionary, p. 1139, Tyndale House Publishers, 1984.

“The emergence of Trinitarian speculations in early church theology led to great difficulties in the article about the Holy Spirit. For the being-as-person of the Holy Spirit, which is evident in the New Testament as divine power...could not be clearly grasped.... The Holy Spirit was viewed not as a personal figure but rather as a power” - The New Encyclopedia Britannica.

“The true divinity of the third person [the holy spirit] was asserted...finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381 A. D.” - A Catholic Dictionary.

Yes, the Council of Constantinople (381 A. D.) first officially decreed “the personality of the Holy Spirit”. - Cairns, pp. 142, 145; also see Encyclopedia Britannica, v. 6, p. 22, 1985 ed.

Famed trinitarian Church historian Neander notes in History of Christian Dogma:

“Though Basil of Caesarea wished to teach the divinity [deity] of the holy spirit in his church, he only ventured to introduce it gradually.”

[Basil of Caesarea was a famed late 4th century trinitarian bishop - one of the ‘Three Cappadocians’ who were instrumental in further developing the trinity doctrine to the final form adopted at the council of Constantinople in 381 A. D. - An Encyclopedia of Religion, p. 794; and p. 237, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 1990 printing]

There was a very good reason for the reluctance of the early Christians to accept this new doctrine of the Spirit:

“In the N[ew] T[estament] there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity. The spirit is conceived as an IMPERSONAL POWER by which God effects his will through Christ.” - An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm (ed.), 1945, p. 344.

In fact, Gregory of Nazianzus (another of the ‘Three Cappadocians’ whom trinitarian historian Lohse praises as being essential to the final defeat of the Arians at the Council of Constantinople),

“declared that it was the destiny of his time [381 A. D.] to bring to full clarity the mystery which in the New Testament was only dimly intimated.” - p. 64, A Short History of Christian Doctrine, Bernard Lohse, Fortress Press, 1985.

But there's more:

Many historians and Bible scholars (many of them trinitarians) freely admit the above truth.

Just proves how many such men of title know nothing of what they speak, when they depart from simple Scriptures to become 'famed' among men to believe a lie.

But there's more...exhaustive study to reject simple Scripture.

“On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the Spirit as a divine energy or power.” - A Catholic Dictionary.

You go to the religion of Rome worshippers who hold to their Sacred traditions, and not Scripture.

On the whole...until the Scriptures that speak of Him as a Person.

You only screen yourself with 'Scholarship'. And so long as you do without answering the Scriptures, your doctrine is false, and it is foolish to dive into your smokescreens.

Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Not by force, but by My Spirit. The Spirit of God is not a force.

The Spirit of God speaks expressly. The Spirit of God says to the churches. The Spirit of God invites, and the Spirit of God Himself testifies of Jesus:

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. (Rev 22)

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.

The Spirit of God is a Person, not a force, which neither speaks nor hears:

Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: they have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not. They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

You are reducing the Spirit of God to an idolatry of force.

So, that you can reject the name of Jesus above every name and idolize the name Jehovah.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Pretty sure that your definition remains trinitarian. The trinity isn't 3 God's, but one.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Why must we believe a 5th century doctrine by faith that no one can explain n those before didn't believe it?

I explained it, but had to use relativistic physics to do so. Unfortunately, most people just aren't well educated in science. However, my explanation is not a proof but a validation.

Time and space are not separate entities.
The Father that Jesus referred to is God the eternal spirit, self existant and not a part of His creation. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God intersecting with the world and operating in time. The Son of God is the eternal spirit taking the form of man in the person of His Son. One God manifested as 3, the eternal spirit existing outside of creation, the eternal spirit manifesting in creation, the eternal spirit manifested in flesh.
God's interaction with creation necessitates taking on limitations, but the eternal spirit of the Father is without limits, present everywhere, throughout time and outside of time. We live in creation and experience time sequentially so it isn't possible for us to interact with God the Father except through His Spirit and the mediation of His Son.

 

[robert derrick]

I explained it, but had to use relativistic physics to do so. Unfortunately, most people just aren't well educated in science. However, my explanation is not a proof but a validation.

Time and space are not separate entities.
The Father that Jesus referred to is God the eternal spirit, self existant and not a part of His creation. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God intersecting with the world and operating in time. The Son of God is the eternal spirit taking the form of man in the person of His Son. One God manifested as 3, the eternal spirit existing outside of creation, the eternal spirit manifesting in creation, the eternal spirit manifested in flesh.
God's interaction with creation necessitates taking on limitations, but the eternal spirit of the Father is without limits, present everywhere, throughout time and outside of time. We live in creation and experience time sequentially so it isn't possible for us to interact with God the Father except through His Spirit and the mediation of His Son.

I.e. One God, and 3 Persons in the Godhead.

The soul of the Son was separated from the Father by the Spirit forsaking Him, when He took upon Himself the sins of the world.

Likewise the Son died on the cross,a nd His soul went into hell by the spirit. Not the Father.

There is now the Father, and the Spirit, and the man Christ Jesus, who is the Son, the Word, and the Lamb.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Likewise the Son died on the cross,a nd His soul went into hell by the spirit. Not the Father.
.

This comment is not supported by scripture explicitly and contradicts the biblical concepts that God is present everywhere, as well as Jesus' own statement:
17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:17-18
Your theology needs work.

 

[robert derrick]

This comment is not supported by scripture explicitly and contradicts the biblical concepts that God is present everywhere, as well as Jesus' own statement:
17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:17-18
Your theology needs work.

The Father did not lay down His life nor die on the cross. Neither did the Holy Spirit. Neither of them shed their blood for our sins.

Only Jesus the Son of God did so, which is why His name is made above every name.

I don't do 'theology'. Just read and teach simple Scripture.

So you stick with your 'relativistic physics' and believe what you want.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The Father did not lay down His life nor die on the cross. Neither did the Holy Spirit. Neither of them shed their blood for our sins.

Only Jesus the Son of God did so, which is why His name is made above every name.

I don't do 'theology'. Just read and teach simple Scripture.

So you stick with your 'relativistic physics' and believe what you want.

Actually, the Father did lay down His life for us the only way an eternal and infinite Spirit could, in the person of His Son, His fleshly tabernacle, our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ. Biblical Christianity is monotheistic and we worship One God who manifests to us as the Holy Spirit and His Son.(The Father doesn't manifest to us in the fullness of His being, because we can't perceive the infinite. That isn't even a possibility. )
I suppose a simple theology is better than none, but everyone who believes in God and reads scripture "does theology " or believes in nothing.

 

[robert derrick]

Actually, the Father did lay down His life for us the only way an eternal and infinite Spirit could, in the person of His Son, His fleshly tabernacle, our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ. Biblical Christianity is monotheistic and we worship One God who manifests to us as the Holy Spirit and His Son.(The Father doesn't manifest to us in the fullness of His being, because we can't perceive the infinite. That isn't even a possibility. )
I suppose a simple theology is better than none, but everyone who believes in God and reads scripture "does theology " or believes in nothing.

Actually, the Father did lay down His life for us the only way an eternal and infinite Spirit could...

Just human reasoning passed off for 'Spiritual understanding'.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Now, show Scripture where the Father died for us. Especially in His 'infinite' way.

Biblical Christianity is monotheistic and we worship One God who manifests to us as the Holy Spirit and His Son.

Speak for yourself. I never presume to speak for others, but only give Scripture and the sense of it that I see and conclude. I especially don't presume to minister that way to others.

Just shows what can happen to people after so many 'years' of ministry and several 'interventions'. They begin to say 'we', when they ought be saying 'I'. Sort of like going around talking about oneself in the 3rd person. Presumptive and pompous.

The Father doesn't manifest to us in the fullness of His being, because we can't perceive the infinite.

Whole lot of 'infinite' talk going on. Must be more of that 'relativistic physics' mingled with Scripture. Though it does sound humble in the face of the 'infinite'.

I stick to Scripture in order to shape my understanding of God and His Word:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Nothing there about not being able to 'perceive the infinite'.

None on earth has seen God at any time, but believers of Jesus on earth can certainly understand what the Son has declared of Him in Scripture.

I don't see self-proclaimed limitations of 'human ignorance' as real humility. Just because I fail to understand something at the time, doesn't mean no one else can.

And three distinct Person's in the One Godhead is simple in Scripture:

The Word was God and was with God in the beginning, and the Word came down out of heaven (John 3:13) and was made flesh on earth (John 1).

God the Father was in heaven, while the Son of God was on earth (John 17:1) and died on a cross, and was separated from His Father by receiving the sins of the world upon His souls (John 19:28).

His body was buried (John 19:42), while His soul went into hell (Acts 2:27), by the Spirit of God to preach to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19).

The Son took up His life again in resurrection (John 10:17), by that same Spirit of God (Rom 1:4), and is now set down with God in His throne: The throne of God and of the Lamb. (Rev 22:1)

God is not manifested as a Lamb on His own throne, but God and the Lamb are in the same throne together. (Rev 3:21)

God the father was manifested in the Son, only as the Son showed and declared Him plainly. The Father in heaven was not the Son on earth:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee.

Sticking to Scriptures is so much more enlightening in Spiritual understanding and knowledge of the truth, than that 'too infinite for us to understand talk.'

I don't speak for other believers. Just for myself. And I don't care one bit about the 'infinite', but only what thus saith the Lord in Scripture.

Preaching about ignorance of the infinite edifies no one, and it certainly doesn't help in proving doctrine of Christ, especially when the doctrine depends on being infinite ignorant.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Actually, the Father did lay down His life for us the only way an eternal and infinite Spirit could...

Just human reasoning passed off for 'Spiritual understanding'.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Now, show Scripture where the Father died for us. Especially in His 'infinite' way.

Biblical Christianity is monotheistic and we worship One God who manifests to us as the Holy Spirit and His Son.

Speak for yourself. I never presume to speak for others, but only give Scripture and the sense of it that I see and conclude. I especially don't presume to minister that way to others.

Just shows what can happen to people after so many 'years' of ministry and several 'interventions'. They begin to say 'we', when they ought be saying 'I'. Sort of like going around talking about oneself in the 3rd person. Presumptive and pompous.

The Father doesn't manifest to us in the fullness of His being, because we can't perceive the infinite.

Whole lot of 'infinite' talk going on. Must be more of that 'relativistic physics' mingled with Scripture. Though it does sound humble in the face of the 'infinite'.

I stick to Scripture in order to shape my understanding of God and His Word:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Nothing there about not being able to 'perceive the infinite'.

None on earth has seen God at any time, but believers of Jesus on earth can certainly understand what the Son has declared of Him in Scripture.

I don't see self-proclaimed limitations of 'human ignorance' as real humility. Just because I fail to understand something at the time, doesn't mean no one else can.

And three distinct Person's in the One Godhead is simple in Scripture:

The Word was God and was with God in the beginning, and the Word came down out of heaven (John 3:13) and was made flesh on earth (John 1).

God the Father was in heaven, while the Son of God was on earth (John 17:1) and died on a cross, and was separated from His Father by receiving the sins of the world upon His souls (John 19:28).

His body was buried (John 19:42), while His soul went into hell (Acts 2:27), by the Spirit of God to preach to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19).

The Son took up His life again in resurrection (John 10:17), by that same Spirit of God (Rom 1:4), and is now set down with God in His throne: The throne of God and of the Lamb. (Rev 22:1)

God is not manifested as a Lamb on His own throne, but God and the Lamb are in the same throne together. (Rev 3:21)

God the father was manifested in the Son, only as the Son showed and declared Him plainly. The Father in heaven was not the Son on earth:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee.

Sticking to Scriptures is so much more enlightening in Spiritual understanding and knowledge of the truth, than that 'too infinite for us to understand talk.'

I don't speak for other believers. Just for myself. And I don't care one bit about the 'infinite', but only what thus saith the Lord in Scripture.

Preaching about ignorance of the infinite edifies no one, and it certainly doesn't help in proving doctrine of Christ, especially when the doctrine depends on being infinite ignorant.

Well, at least you have the infinite ignorant part going for you. If your theology doesn't acknowledge reality, it's entirely without merit.

 

[robert derrick]

"Likewise the Son died on the cross, and His soul went into hell by the spirit. Not the Father."

This comment is not supported by scripture explicitly and contradicts the biblical concepts that God is present everywhere.

False.

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The soul of the Son went into hell by the Spirit. Not the soul of the Father, who was still in heaven, even as the Spon prayed to Him there while on earth.

Your false doctrine rejects simple Scripture.

God is everywhere by His Spirit. And so both the Father and the Son are present, wheresoever His Spirit is.

 

[robert derrick]

Well, at least you have the infinite ignorant part going for you. If your theology doesn't acknowledge reality, it's entirely without merit.

Actually, not me. I'm rejecting the 'infinity' philosophy you rely on for doctrine.

Which is why you have no understanding of what I teach by Scripture, and so have no response to it.

Your response is childish. My objection to your reliance on such pseudo-scientific terms and human reasoning is valid: they have no proper place in accompanying Scripture for doctrine of Christ. No more so than the Roman Catholic religion has by depending upon their 'Sacred' traditions to accompany Scripture.

You may be a great intervener, but you are purposely carnal minded in teaching the law of Christ according to the Scriptures.

Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Sometimes, the best learning of the truth comes by seeing the errors of the false, and correcting them by sound doctrine of Scripture.

So, thanks.

 

[robert derrick]

Even as the Father and the Son cannot be one and the same Person, since God's will is that we all be one in Him, even as they are One:

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.

Even so the Son cannot be the Father sitting in their throne together, since His promise is that we will also sit in the same throne even as they do:

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

To sit with the Father is to not be Father. Even as the Son does not sit with the Father and is Father, nor shall we sit with the Son and the Father and be the Son and the Father: God and the Lamb sit in their throne together (Rev 22:1), even as the Father gave the Lamb to sit with Him in His throne by overcoming the world, so shall the Lamb grant His overcomers to sit with them likewise.

The Father and the Son being the same Person is a lie. The Father did not die for our sins on the cross, which is why the Father honors and glorifies the Son, with the glory they both had from everlasting:

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Believing the lie of 'Oneness' with the Father being the Son, is due to a rejection of the Son being God in the flesh on earth, with the Father being God in heaven:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee.

The Father and the Son were not the same Person in the beginning, with God the Father being the Word with God the Father.

That is not Scripture.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Sometimes, the best learning of the truth comes by seeing the errors of the false, and correcting them by sound doctrine of Scripture.
.

At least you acknowledge that you don't know the truth, but you can know Him personally by committing your soul to the Lord Jesus Christ, believing that He rose bodily from the dead by the will of God, and praying to receive His Spirit.

 

[robert derrick]

At least you acknowledge that you don't know the truth, but you can know Him personally by committing your soul to the Lord Jesus Christ, believing that He rose bodily from the dead by the will of God, and praying to receive His Spirit.

Don't know all the truth.

And when we stick to Scripture, everything is much more edifying and blessed, as you demonstrate above.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Don't know all the truth.

And when we stick to Scripture, everything is much more edifying and blessed, as you demonstrate above.

Ok, then here's the plain biblical proof of my non biblical statements:
The eternal God is your refuge, And underneath are the everlasting arms; He will thrust out the enemy from before you, And will say, ‘Destroy!’ Deuteronomy 33:27

Accepted definitions

Eternal: lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

infinite: (ADJECTIVE)
limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
"the infinite mercy of God" ·
NOUN
(the infinite)
a space or quantity that is infinite
​

Before the mountains were brought forth,
Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
Psalm 90:2

Accepted definition:

everlasting, (adjective )
: lasting or enduring through all time : ETERNAL
​

Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. Psalm 1397-10

“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built! 1 Kings 8:27

The word infinite is used as a mathematical expression of eternity, a way to include the concept of limitless in mathematical expression. It is the only way to express the eternal mathematically.
The infinite or eternal is without boundaries mathematically. However, the person of God has boundaries described by character. Eg: God is good and not evil. God can not lie. God is not unjust. Etc.

Proof of the Eternal Spirit in the Holy Spirit:
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:11
26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. John 15:26

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24

Proof of the Eternal Spirit in the person of Jesus Christ:
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—To do Your will, O God.’ ” Hebrews 10:5-7

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. John 14:10
Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and "the Father" are One Eternal God manifested as 3 persons that share One essence and are in complete agreement, not 3 Gods. That is formally accepted sound doctrine. God is not schizophrenic.
If you don't understand how science and mathematics confirm scripture, that's your problem, not mine.
However, you should probably avoid Christian apologetics as a ministry.

 

[robert derrick]

Ok, then here's the plain biblical proof of my non biblical statements:
The eternal God is your refuge, And underneath are the everlasting arms; He will thrust out the enemy from before you, And will say, ‘Destroy!’ Deuteronomy 33:27

Accepted definitions

Eternal: lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

infinite: (ADJECTIVE)
limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
"the infinite mercy of God" ·
NOUN
(the infinite)
a space or quantity that is infinite
​

Before the mountains were brought forth,
Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
Psalm 90:2

Accepted definition:

everlasting, (adjective )
: lasting or enduring through all time : ETERNAL
​

Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. Psalm 1397-10

“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built! 1 Kings 8:27

The word infinite is used as a mathematical expression of eternity, a way to include the concept of limitless in mathematical expression. It is the only way to express the eternal mathematically.
The infinite or eternal is without boundaries mathematically. However, the person of God has boundaries described by character. Eg: God is good and not evil. God can not lie. God is not unjust. Etc.

Proof of the Eternal Spirit in the Holy Spirit:
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:11
26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. John 15:26

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24

Proof of the Eternal Spirit in the person of Jesus Jesus Christ:
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—To do Your will, O God.’ ” Hebrews 10:5-7

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. John 14:10
Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and "the Father" are One Eternal God manifested as 3 persons that share One essence and are in complete agreement, not 3 Gods. That is formally accepted sound doctrine. God is not schizophrenic.
If you don't understand how science and mathematics confirm scripture, that's your problem, not mine.
However, you should probably avoid Christian apologetics as a ministry.

you should probably avoid Christian apologetics as a ministry.
Christian apologetics has only one meaning in Scripture: to stand in the defense of the Gospel against the attacks of the unbelievers, as Paul did in Philippians, and in defense of the doctrine of Christ against heresies and false teachings of men, that would hurt the corrupt the Scriptures, which the two witnesses do in Rev 11.

We are all called to the first, and I am called to the 2nd.

Which is why I don't use non-Bible concepts, reasonings, nor words to confirm the truth of scripture.

I.e.: Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and "the Father" are One Eternal God manifested as 3 persons that share One essence and are in complete agreement, not 3 Gods. That is formally accepted sound doctrine.

That is the doctrine of 3 Persons in the Godhead. They each are God, and altogether are God. One is Spirit. One is the Father in heaven. And one is a soul: the man Christ Jesus.

Neither the Father in heaven, nor the Spirit, by which the soul of the Son went to the heart of the earth, died for our sins.

'3 Gods' is polytheistic, and a purposed misstatement, which I have never made, but is only used by certain to sidestep arguments for a doctrine they don't personally like.

The Father did not die on the cross in the person of His Son. There is no Scripture for that. Period. That is a construct of them that do not wish to understand the Son dying on the cross, while the Father He prayed to on earth, remained in heaven. That is Scripture.

I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

And they are one. Not one God in one God, which is not Scripture, but rather one in unity, which is a teaching of Scripture of old (Num 14:16)(Judges 6:16).

Even as they are one in unity, so will they make His people one in unity, and since His people cannot possibly be each other and the same person, therefore, neither can the Father and the Son be one and the same person, since we are to be one even as they are one.

You do not respond to my points. You only continue in your own ideas. I at least respond to your points in detail, at every turn. It's called the courtesy of my calling. I do not just blindly overlook or ignore what others say, simply because it does not agree with my belief, especially if they offer Scripture for it. I am then called upon by my Lord to study it through and respond in kind. I have known few others to do so likewise.

And so, you see our different callings. You have the heart and purpose of ministerial intervention, and I have the discipline and exactness of Scriptural teaching of the law. Outside of your calling, you are sloppy in teaching of Scripture only. Outside of my calling, I am without patience in personal ministry.

Example:

If you don't understand how science and mathematics confirm scripture, that's your problem, not mine.

I understand your efforts to rationalize your doctrine by 'scientific' means, and reject it is either necessary nor valid.

Here is how Scripture is a perfect example of analytic mathematics:

If A = B, and A = C, then B = C.

If the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh, then God was made flesh.

This is recognizing Scriptural mathematic precision.

Using men's understanding of 'science' and their terms for it as a means of trying to accompany Scriptural doctrine is human reasoning, where it does not belong.

I.e. I don't care what 'infinite' means to man, but I certainly do understand from Scripture by the Spirit and mind of Christ, what everlasting means.

And no Scripture teaches that the everlasting God is One Person manifested in 3 different 'personalities', but is the same Person.

Neither the Father nor the Spirit has the soul of a man. The man Christ Jesus did on earth, and does in heaven.

Neither was He created one when made of a woman, as the created-christers falsely teach.

 

[michaelvpardo]

you should probably avoid Christian apologetics as a ministry.
Christian apologetics has only one meaning in Scripture: to stand in the defense of the Gospel against the attacks of the unbelievers, as Paul did in Philippians, and in defense of the doctrine of Christ against heresies and false teachings of men, that would hurt the corrupt the Scriptures, which the two witnesses do in Rev 11.

We are all called to the first, and I am called to the 2nd.

Which is why I don't use non-Bible concepts, reasonings, nor words to confirm the truth of scripture.

I.e.: Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and "the Father" are One Eternal God manifested as 3 persons that share One essence and are in complete agreement, not 3 Gods. That is formally accepted sound doctrine.

That is the doctrine of 3 Persons in the Godhead. They each are God, and altogether are God. One is Spirit. One is the Father in heaven. And one is a soul: the man Christ Jesus.

Neither the Father in heaven, nor the Spirit, by which the soul of the Son went to the heart of the earth, died for our sins.

'3 Gods' is polytheistic, and a purposed misstatement, which I have never made, but is only used by certain to sidestep arguments for a doctrine they don't personally like.

The Father did not die on the cross in the person of His Son. There is no Scripture for that. Period. That is a construct of them that do not wish to understand the Son dying on the cross, while the Father He prayed to on earth, remained in heaven. That is Scripture.

I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

And they are one. Not one God in one God, which is not Scripture, but rather one in unity, which is a teaching of Scripture of old (Num 14:16)(Judges 6:16).

Even as they are one in unity, so will they make His people one in unity, and since His people cannot possibly be each other and the same person, therefore, neither can the Father and the Son be one and the same person, since we are to be one even as they are one.

You do not respond to my points. You only continue in your own ideas. I at least respond to your points in detail, at every turn. It's called the courtesy of my calling. I do not just blindly overlook or ignore what others say, simply because it does not agree with my belief, especially if they offer Scripture for it. I am then called upon by my Lord to study it through and respond in kind. I have known few others to do so likewise.

And so, you see our different callings. You have the heart and purpose of ministerial intervention, and I have the discipline and exactness of Scriptural teaching of the law. Outside of your calling, you are sloppy in teaching of Scripture only. Outside of my calling, I am without patience in personal ministry.

Example:

If you don't understand how science and mathematics confirm scripture, that's your problem, not mine.

I understand your efforts to rationalize your doctrine by 'scientific' means, and reject it is either necessary nor valid.

Here is how Scripture is a perfect example of analytic mathematics:

If A = B, and A = C, then B = C.

If the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh, then God was made flesh.

This is recognizing Scriptural mathematic precision.

Using men's understanding of 'science' and their terms for it as a means of trying to accompany Scriptural doctrine is human reasoning, where it does not belong.

I.e. I don't care what 'infinite' means to man, but I certainly do understand from Scripture by the Spirit and mind of Christ, what everlasting means.

And no Scripture teaches that the everlasting God is One Person manifested in 3 different 'personalities', but is the same Person.

Neither the Father nor the Spirit has the soul of a man. The man Christ Jesus did on earth, and does in heaven.

Neither was He created one when made of a woman, as the created-christers falsely teach.

So the scripture I provided as proof of reality aren't scripture?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Neither the Father in heaven, nor the Spirit, by which the soul of the Son went to the heart of the earth, died for our sins.

It is impossible for a Spirit to be nailed to a cross and die in order to break the old covenant. Failure to keep a covenant was submission to death. That was the whole point of killing an animal and sealing a covenant in blood. But it is not impossible for a Spirit to dwell in a man (as Jesus claimed), so that He might die as a man, but live by the power of the Holy Spirit as testified by the word of God, a power Christ claimed for Himself as testified by the word of God.
The fact that you can't see it doesn't make it less true.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I am not a Trinitarian, but I do believe in the HS, Jesus and the Father. I just don't see a reason to separate them. The Trinity theory says they are all the same, but distinct and separate "persons". But not really because the are the same (but different). But just because they are different persons doesn't mean they aren't the same, because they are the same while also not being the same... Because they are different (but still the same, but not really).

Get my drift? Did you follow all that? Me neither! Thats why I am not a Trinitarian.

The problem with Modalism, which describes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as manifestations of the one-Person God is summed up as follows:

1. No actual person was crucified on the cross for our sins. It was merely a manifestation. This is closer to Gnosticism than orthodox Christianity.
2. There is no mediator between God and man, because at this present time, according to Modalism, God is manifested as the indwelling Holy Spirit. Therefore there is no one in heaven.
3. We do not have an advocate with the Father when we sin, because there is no Jesus nor is there a Father in heaven because the one-Person God is being also manifested as the Holy Spirit.
4. We cannot be seated with Christ at the right hand of the Majesty on High, because there is no Christ or Majesty on High in heaven.
5. Prayer is of no value because there is no God in heaven for prayer to reach. The sole manifestation of God is the indwelling Holy Spirit, so it is a waste of time praying to a Person outside of ourselves.

Therefore, Modalism is not Biblical Christianity. Therefore, in my opinion, those who hold to Modalism are not saved, because they are believing in and worshiping another God and another Christ.