The Case For The Triune GodHead!
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Metaphorical language. The Word was God, not Jesus. Are you even aware Jesus is not in the quote you reference and John 20:31 tells us nothing he wrote was for any reason other than to prove Jesus is the Messiah, including not God incarnate.
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
The only correct "Bible," as best we can discover, would be the W&H; the UBS; and the Nestle NT Greek texts. And for the OT, the Hebrew text, Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (BHS). What makes you think that biased, imperfect men have translated any single Bible 100% correctly?
If I had to choose any single translation today, it might be the NASB. However, I know that it has purposely mistranslated the 6000 or so places where God's personal name (YHWH) are written in the OT. I know that John 1:1c., for example, is deliberately mistranslated.
So, even though I might select the NASB, I would still have to go to the OT Hebrew and NT Greek texts to verify. If the translators have incorrectly translated a verse, or ignored other honest alternate translations, I would have to present that information to others.
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FHII
Well-Known Member
- Apr 9, 2011
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So tou select 6 or 7 Bible translations. Based on what? Your opinion!
I desire no more conversation with a reed shaking in the wind.
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
Where did I choose "6 or 7 Bible translations"? If that is an example of your reading ability, it may not be worthwhile trying to discuss with you.
I'm not familiar with "modalism", only scripture, the doctrines of the RCC, and the doctrines of the reformation. My belief conforms to what I was taught about the trinity by trinitarians, but is confirmed by my understanding of physical science rather than by blind faith in self contradictory statements. Some teachers are offended by the word "manifestations ", somehow believing this contradicts their convictions of a 3 person Godhead, but the description of Christ as such comes directly out of scripture:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
The doctrine as I understand it neither denies the preexistance of the Son of God, nor His equality in essence with the Father, or the Holy Spirit, but does equate Jesus with Yah havah, the God of the covenant made with Abraham and with Moses, and based upon the statements made by the Apostle John.
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 1 John 4:12
If anything, my view of the Godhead is more aligned with that of the Apostles than any distorted view of the trinity presented by modern trinitarians, many of whom view the Father as an angry vengeful God and Jesus as opposing Him on our behalf (in my limited experience with catholic relatives and other less biblically informed individuals. )
Modalism is the idea that there is one being called God who manifests himself as the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit depending on the the need. In other words, at one time He may manifest Himself as the Father and at another the Son.
It appears from you statement above that you see the Father and Son as two different persons. Would that be two separate beings?
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
I'm surprised that you would use this spurious version of 1 Tim. 3:16.
See:
Jesus IS God in the flesh!!
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I stated this before, but my perception of the trinity is One eternal God manifesting as 3 persons, an eternal Father who is Spirit and exists outside of His creation, an eternal Son who manifested in the flesh as the only begotten Son of God, and the Holy Spirit who is another person in the sense that He manifests in time, a spatial dimension, and consequently takes on the limitations of our space/time continuum specifically with respect to time, and according to scripture a limitation of knowledge.
None of the writers of scripture had any clue that time is a physical dimension of space except God Himself and the bible is written in such a way as to be understandable to human beings at the time it was written. One God who manifests as three persons because of the limitations of our experience as creatures that exist in time is a complicated concept for anyone, but entirely reasonable based upon what scripture says.
By the definition you kindly provided for modalism, I would say that this is similar, but ignores the fact that God can manifest anywhere at anytime in as many ways as He chooses simultaneously, because He is without limit. However, there is no need for Him to be manifest in time as anyone other than the Son of God and the Holy Spirit. If you can accept that the Holy Spirit is not given by measure, yet indwells all genuine believers that ask for Him, then God is manifest with every believer and literally in millions of places at the same time, yet we readily accept Him as One God with the Father and the Son.
Spirit does not have the limitations of the physical, and the idea that God would take on limitations in order to fellowship with us is more profound to me than the price that He paid on the cross.
Scripture doesn't tell us how the Son of God interacted with the heavenly host prior to His incarnation, but I believe it was as the ancient of days. I suppose that we'll all know one way or another soon, and very soon.
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@michaelvpardo Here is a picture I drew of what creation looked like in the beginning. It how I see God, Gods word, and Gods spirit before creating anything. (I could have set up an kingdom too in the background with angels however it was not on my mind at that particular time when creating).“Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:”
Matthew 25:34 NKJV
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.”
Genesis 1:1-2 NKJV
Thought would share, thank you.
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I believe this is Modalism, not Trinitarianism. Trinitarianism says there is one God in three persons, not one God who manifests Himself as different persons.
It’s a matter of opinion, @farouk. The Bible is there to us and learn from, and all have their opinions about this. Some say yes, some say no. God, Gods Word, Gods Spirit are all one in purpose and make up the reality of heaven.
And my opinion falls under this scripture:
“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”
I John 5:1-13 NKJV
And my opinion falls under this scripture:
“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”
I John 5:1-13 NKJV
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One God in three persons is exactly the same as One God who manifests in three persons. Any argument that distinguishes the two is simply didactic.
I know that some churches lean heavily on divine magic to make their theology "work", because I was raised in such a church. However God calls us to reason, not superstition.
Scripture very plainly calls our Lord Jesus Christ, God manifested in the flesh. The Apostles understood this and I've always stood on the solid ground of understanding scripture in terms of reality. Your description of the trinity is pagan polytheism, not trinitarian.
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
Matthew wrote: "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."
The word "three" (unlike "one") is never used for God in scripture.
Michaelvpardo wrote: "Scripture very plainly calls our Lord Jesus Christ, God manifested in the flesh."
See post 169 above. In fact, click on 1 Tim. 3:16 in your post 167.
Just a little research clearly shows these two 'scriptures' are spurious (1 John 5:7 and 1 Tim. 3:16 in KJV).
The word "three" (unlike "one") is never used for God in scripture.
Michaelvpardo wrote: "Scripture very plainly calls our Lord Jesus Christ, God manifested in the flesh."
See post 169 above. In fact, click on 1 Tim. 3:16 in your post 167.
Just a little research clearly shows these two 'scriptures' are spurious (1 John 5:7 and 1 Tim. 3:16 in KJV).
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To add more to grasping what the spirit is, be it "the man's spirit" (1 Cor 2:11), to the holy spirit (Ps 51:11), here are some more scriptures to consider. At 1 Corinthians 2, the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthian Christians that "my speech and what I preached were not with persuasive words of wisdom but with a demonstration of (or by means of ) spirit and power, so that your faith might be, not in men’s wisdom, but in God’s power", showing that spirit and power are interconnected, a force and not a person (unless it is a "spirit", angels, Heb 1:7; or "an unclean spirit" or demon, Mark 1:23, which shows a clear distinction between the undetectable spirit realm and the visible material realm), and in which Paul adds "that your faith might be, not in men’s wisdom, but in God’s power (or holy spirit, his active force)", that causes a person to follow godly wisdom, if they allow it.(see Eph 4:30, whereby a person can reject the holy spirit's influence, "grieving" it)
Then Paul contrasts fleshly wisdom with God's wisdom, "not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing (as at Armageddon, Rev 16:14, 16). But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom" (1 Cor 2:6, 7), wisdom that unlocks the understanding of what the spirit teaches and is, being an invisible force that produces visible results.
At 1 Corinthians 2:9, 10, quoting from Isaiah 64:4, Paul says: "It is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” For it is to us (or true Christians, Jehovah's people, Jesus genuine disciples, see Matt 13:11, 12) God has revealed them through his (holy) spirit, for the (holy) spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God."
So, Jehovah God reveals or unlocks "the deep things of God" by means of his holy spirit, his powerful force that can extend to any place in the universe, into a sincere person's mind and heart to open to understanding what the Bible really teaches.(see Matt 13:12-15)
At 1 Corinthians 2:11-13, Paul now says: "For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit (or dominate force, his personality, his driving force) within him ? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God except the spirit of God (or his dominate force being love, 1 John 4:8). Now we received, not the spirit of the world (or the world's dominate force of lovelessness, apathy, or hate), but the (holy) spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the (holy) spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words."
Thus, many who call themselves "Christian" are like what Paul further says: "But a physical man does not accept the things of the (holy) spirit of God (the unseen holy "force" which teaches sincere ones to apply the "fruitage of the spirit", Gal 5:22, 23), for they are foolishness to him (wanting to keep his passive, arrogant or violent personality, see Ps 11:5); and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually (or through the influence of the holy spirit, which the fleshly man rejects). However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man (but by Jehovah God, see Jer 17:10). For (quoting from Isa 40:13, 14) “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him ?” But we do have the mind of Christ."
Jesus said at Luke 11, in giving an illustration about being persistent in praying to Jehovah God for our needs, that "so I say to you, keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you. For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking, it will be opened. Indeed, which father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will hand him a serpent instead of a fish ? Or if he also asks for an egg, will hand him a scorpion ? Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit (or the gift of the holy spirit as force that causes a person to grasp what the Bible teaches) to those asking him !”(Luke 11:5-13)
Then Paul contrasts fleshly wisdom with God's wisdom, "not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing (as at Armageddon, Rev 16:14, 16). But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom" (1 Cor 2:6, 7), wisdom that unlocks the understanding of what the spirit teaches and is, being an invisible force that produces visible results.
At 1 Corinthians 2:9, 10, quoting from Isaiah 64:4, Paul says: "It is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” For it is to us (or true Christians, Jehovah's people, Jesus genuine disciples, see Matt 13:11, 12) God has revealed them through his (holy) spirit, for the (holy) spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God."
So, Jehovah God reveals or unlocks "the deep things of God" by means of his holy spirit, his powerful force that can extend to any place in the universe, into a sincere person's mind and heart to open to understanding what the Bible really teaches.(see Matt 13:12-15)
At 1 Corinthians 2:11-13, Paul now says: "For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit (or dominate force, his personality, his driving force) within him ? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God except the spirit of God (or his dominate force being love, 1 John 4:8). Now we received, not the spirit of the world (or the world's dominate force of lovelessness, apathy, or hate), but the (holy) spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the (holy) spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words."
Thus, many who call themselves "Christian" are like what Paul further says: "But a physical man does not accept the things of the (holy) spirit of God (the unseen holy "force" which teaches sincere ones to apply the "fruitage of the spirit", Gal 5:22, 23), for they are foolishness to him (wanting to keep his passive, arrogant or violent personality, see Ps 11:5); and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually (or through the influence of the holy spirit, which the fleshly man rejects). However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man (but by Jehovah God, see Jer 17:10). For (quoting from Isa 40:13, 14) “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him ?” But we do have the mind of Christ."
Jesus said at Luke 11, in giving an illustration about being persistent in praying to Jehovah God for our needs, that "so I say to you, keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you. For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking, it will be opened. Indeed, which father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will hand him a serpent instead of a fish ? Or if he also asks for an egg, will hand him a scorpion ? Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit (or the gift of the holy spirit as force that causes a person to grasp what the Bible teaches) to those asking him !”(Luke 11:5-13)
That's not my description, that's the standard Trinitarian understanding. Personally, I think they're both wrong. The apostle Paul states plainly to the Corinthians, that there is one God the Father. Jesus said that the Father was the only true God. Paul said that the Father is the only Potentate. I think people have misunderstood this whole concept. When Jesus speaks of Him and the Father being one, I don't believe it's in number, but rather in unity. From the fifth century on people have been trying to make God one in number. It's clear that we have two separate beings. In John 8:42 Jesus said that He proceeded forth and came out of God. The earliest Christians said that Jesus was begotten before all worlds and that He was God out of God. In Genesis we have Jehovah on earth and Jehovah in Heaven. Clearly two separate beings.
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. (Gen. 19:24-25 KJV)
Here we have Jehovah on earth raining down fire and brimstone from Jehovah in Heaven. That's two Jehovahs.
What you're expressing is Modalism. The doctrine claims that there is one God (being) who manifests Himself in different modes. Sometimes, the Father, sometimes the Son, and sometimes the Holy Spirit.
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
Butch5 wrote above:
"In Genesis we have Jehovah on earth and Jehovah in Heaven. Clearly two separate beings.
'Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.' (Gen. 19:24-25 KJV)
"Here we have Jehovah on earth raining down fire and brimstone from Jehovah in Heaven. That's two Jehovahs."
..............................
Even if we assume this to be a correct translation, it seems obvious that it can be honestly interpreted as a simple repetition of the same person's name. That is, the very same person who produced the brimstone and fire, Jehovah, is also the one who rained it down upon these cities.
The explanatory note by trinitarian Dr. Young in Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, for this verse states: "JEHOVAH...JEHOVAH, i.e. from Himself."
If that is the correct explanation, then this scripture might provide a somewhat parallel example: "And King Solomon gave to the Queen of Sheba all that she desired, whatever she asked besides what was given her by the bounty of King Solomon." - 1 Kings 10:13, RSV. (Cf. KJV.) Even though this is a very literal translation of the original manuscripts and the one personal name of King Solomon is actually used twice, we surely don't believe there were two different persons making up the one King Solomon! Wouldn't we interpret this as Dr. Young (and others) have done with "Jehovah" above? That is obviously how the Living Bible, NIV, MLB, NASB, etc. have interpreted it. ("King Solomon gave her everything she asked him for, besides the presents he had already planned." - LB.)
Another honest explanation for Gen. 19:24 given by trinitarian scholars themselves is that the use of the phrase in question ("from the LORD out of heaven") is in doubt. The very trinitarian New American Bible, 1970 ed. (Catholic) encloses the last part of Gen. 19:24 in brackets: "the LORD rained down sulphurous fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah [from the LORD out of heaven]." And the preface to the NAB tells us: "Doubtful readings ... appear within brackets." - p. 45, St. Joseph Edition.
That is why these trinitarian Bible translations have actually omitted that doubtful portion: ASV; AT; CEB; CEV; ERV; EXB; GNT; GW; ICB; Mo; NCV; TLB; NEB; NLV; NLT; REB. (E.g. “then the LORD rained down fire and brimstone from the skies on Sodom and Gomorrah.” - New English Bible.) And others, like the NJB, have rendered it “[Jehovah] rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire of his own sending.”
Certainly no trinitarian Bible translation would do this if it could possibly be used as honest trinitarian evidence!
"In Genesis we have Jehovah on earth and Jehovah in Heaven. Clearly two separate beings.
'Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.' (Gen. 19:24-25 KJV)
"Here we have Jehovah on earth raining down fire and brimstone from Jehovah in Heaven. That's two Jehovahs."
..............................
Even if we assume this to be a correct translation, it seems obvious that it can be honestly interpreted as a simple repetition of the same person's name. That is, the very same person who produced the brimstone and fire, Jehovah, is also the one who rained it down upon these cities.
The explanatory note by trinitarian Dr. Young in Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, for this verse states: "JEHOVAH...JEHOVAH, i.e. from Himself."
If that is the correct explanation, then this scripture might provide a somewhat parallel example: "And King Solomon gave to the Queen of Sheba all that she desired, whatever she asked besides what was given her by the bounty of King Solomon." - 1 Kings 10:13, RSV. (Cf. KJV.) Even though this is a very literal translation of the original manuscripts and the one personal name of King Solomon is actually used twice, we surely don't believe there were two different persons making up the one King Solomon! Wouldn't we interpret this as Dr. Young (and others) have done with "Jehovah" above? That is obviously how the Living Bible, NIV, MLB, NASB, etc. have interpreted it. ("King Solomon gave her everything she asked him for, besides the presents he had already planned." - LB.)
Another honest explanation for Gen. 19:24 given by trinitarian scholars themselves is that the use of the phrase in question ("from the LORD out of heaven") is in doubt. The very trinitarian New American Bible, 1970 ed. (Catholic) encloses the last part of Gen. 19:24 in brackets: "the LORD rained down sulphurous fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah [from the LORD out of heaven]." And the preface to the NAB tells us: "Doubtful readings ... appear within brackets." - p. 45, St. Joseph Edition.
That is why these trinitarian Bible translations have actually omitted that doubtful portion: ASV; AT; CEB; CEV; ERV; EXB; GNT; GW; ICB; Mo; NCV; TLB; NEB; NLV; NLT; REB. (E.g. “then the LORD rained down fire and brimstone from the skies on Sodom and Gomorrah.” - New English Bible.) And others, like the NJB, have rendered it “[Jehovah] rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire of his own sending.”
Certainly no trinitarian Bible translation would do this if it could possibly be used as honest trinitarian evidence!
No, you're trying to make what I've written fit your definition. Scripture says:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
I was confirmed in the RCC 26 years before being born again and they are about as trinitarian as you can get. Their doctrine declares one God in three persons.
From Bing's on line dictionary:
manifest
[ˈmanəˌfest]
VERB
manifested (past tense) · manifested (past participle)
display or show (a quality or feeling) by one's acts or appearance; demonstrate.
"Ray manifested signs of severe depression"
synonyms:
display · show · exhibit · demonstrate · betray · present · evince · reveal · indicate · make plain · express · declare
(be manifested in)
be evidence of; prove.
"bad industrial relations are often manifested in disputes and strikes"
synonyms:
be evidence of · be a sign of · indicate · show · attest ·
[more](of an ailment) become apparent through the appearance of symptoms."a disorder that usually manifests in middle age"(of a ghost or spirit) appear."one deity manifested in the form of a bird."
Hebrews 10:5 says God the Father prepared a body for God the Son, declaring the preexistance of the Son of God.[ˈmanəˌfest]
VERB
manifested (past tense) · manifested (past participle)
display or show (a quality or feeling) by one's acts or appearance; demonstrate.
"Ray manifested signs of severe depression"
synonyms:
display · show · exhibit · demonstrate · betray · present · evince · reveal · indicate · make plain · express · declare
(be manifested in)
be evidence of; prove.
"bad industrial relations are often manifested in disputes and strikes"
synonyms:
be evidence of · be a sign of · indicate · show · attest ·
[more](of an ailment) become apparent through the appearance of symptoms."a disorder that usually manifests in middle age"(of a ghost or spirit) appear."one deity manifested in the form of a bird."
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. Hebrews 10:5
Jesus declared His equality with the Father as the presence of the Father within Him, even declaring His works as the works of the Father.
36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” John 10:36-38
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. John 14:9-11
Jesus couldn't have said it more plainly. He described Himself as the tabernacle of the living God, the Father manifested in flesh. He was a man born of a woman, yet simultaneously He is the Eternal God. Two persons who are One eternal God along with the Holy Spirit, One like Him, the eternal God manifesting in time (a spatial dimension and part of creation.)
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