The Church is Not the Source of Truth

[Episkopos]

Of course the elephant in the room are all the atrocities that were perpetuated by the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages (Middle Ages) and of course there were atrocities by Protestant groups. This illustrates why NO CHURCH is the Source of Truth.

We are to be a Witness and Expression of the Truth (Jesus Christ) but we are not the SOURCE.

Today, more and more denominations are no longer calling sin, SIN. Witness the denominations that affirm the LBGT lifestyle.

LGBT-affirming Christian denominations

This list is only going to grow and God will use the infiltration of the world into men's religious organizations to CALL those who are slumbering to AWAKE and COME OUT OF HER.


[background=transparent]850 Ireland's Catholic Priests want end to celibacy, allow gay relationships & women ordained[/background]

Catholic Priest calls Celibacy a MAN MADE LAW. He does say "it is not a dogma but it comes across that way because of how it is enforced." Says the call of celibacy has to come from God and not a human. Also, says Peter was married and the first 14 popes were married. Says a lot that I agree with. (there are 3 parts).

[background=transparent]Celibacy: A Bold New Vision Pt. 1 - The Defining Moment[/background]

There is so much confusion and division in the Catholic Church that it is just as preposterous to think that it is the Pillar and Ground of the Truth as it is to consider the Methodist, Lutheran or Episcopal Church as the Pillar and Ground of the Truth. The TRUTH all rests with JESUS, the Head of the Church. No one has ALL the TRUTH. Only Jesus has ALL of the TRUTH because HE IS TRUTH. We all have a part of it, but only He has all of it.

Good posting Rex and Jiggyfly.

Axehead

Axe, don't you see that you have stated to be only partly right?

"We all have a part of it, but only He has all of it. "

It is invariably the case that even so called "advanced" Christians have a good sense about Jesus (the Head) and even their own walk with Him....but completely ignore the purpose of the entity called the "Ecclesia".

Who can discern the Body? This thread is ample proof of the rarity of this.

The church witness is sick and dying because we cannot seem to discern the Body.

1Co 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

1Co 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's

1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Paul is accurately describing the present state of the church. But people will remain blind to this as it is prophesied.

 

[epostle1]

Nobody is claiming the Church to be the source of truth. Axehead is screaming over a straw man.

"But [it has, on the other hand, been shown], that the preaching of the Church is everywhere consistent, and continues in an even course, and receives testimony from the prophets, the apostles, and all the disciples. For in the Church," it is said, "God hath set apostles, prophets, teachers,' and all the other means through which the Spirit works; of which all those are not partakers who do not join themselves to the Church, but defraud themselves of life through their perverse opinions and infamous behaviour. For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church, and every kind of grace; but the Spirit is truth."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:24 (A.D. 180).

"But we who hope for the Son of God are persecuted and trodden down by those unbelievers. For the wings of the vessels are the churches; and the sea is the world, in which the Church is set, like a ship tossed in the deep, but not destroyed; for she has with her the skilled Pilot, Christ. And she bears in her midst also the trophy (which is erected) over death; for she carries with her the cross of the Lord As the wind the Spirit from heaven is present, by whom those who believe are sealed: she has also anchors of iron accompanying her, viz., the holy commandments of Christ Himself, which are strong as iron. She has also mariners on the right and on the left, assessors like the holy angels, by whom the Church is always governed and defended.
Hippolytus, Christ and Anti-Christ, 59 (A.D. 200).
Additional comments from Fr Barron on "Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWR1QCoRqwA&feature=related

 

[Rex]

of which all those are not partakers who do not join themselves to the Church,
(A.D. 180)

[sup]Luke 17:20 [/sup]Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; [sup]21 [/sup]nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
[sup]22 [/sup]Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. [sup]23 [/sup]And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them.

Please note the date in the quote. (A.D. 180)

1 John 2:19
[sup]19 [/sup]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[Axehead]

Men are constantly co-opting the Headship of Jesus Christ and the place of the Holy Spirit in other's lives. It started in the Garden, but it will end someday.

From Genesis to Revelation you see the thread of False Religion running through every book and you see the True Believers who worship God in the Spirit and get onboard His program instead of USING His Name to endorse their (man's) program.

In the end (Book of Revelation) we see that the Source of ALL Truth (Jesus) is the Victor over all lies (False Religion).

Axehead

 

[Rex]

Men are constantly co-opting the Headship of Jesus Christ and the place of the Holy Spirit in other's lives.

1 John 2:19
[sup]19 [/sup]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1 John 2:20

 

[Axehead]

1 John 2:19
[sup]19 [/sup]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1 John 2:20

Just to expound a bit more on your excellent verses.

Deut 13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Don't leave that heavenly city for an earthly kingdom.

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

We see two opposing partisan views....but that constitutes what can be understood by men. The truth is far more radical than either position.

 

[Rex]

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

We see two opposing partisan views....but that constitutes what can be understood by men. The truth is far more radical than either position.

It to testifies to the Lord threw the Prophet Jeremiah 31:31-34 But catholics are "program protected" against John 16:13 they see it as a gift exclusively to the Apostles. This reinforces their perception that the gift of the HS can be transferred by the will of men, creating new popes and bishops.

1 John is different in that he is addressing the body of Christ in general, yet he affirms the promise to them no differently than he received it himself.
1 john 2:20
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and know all things.
John then goes on to affirm this anointing

1 John 2:27
[sup]26 [/sup]These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. [sup]27 [/sup]But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[sup][e][/sup] abide in Him.

Lastly I like using 1 John because he warns of those that went out from them. The RCC likes to boast of their heritage leading back to the first century as thou it were a badge of authenticity. Jesus and John both clearly warned us about those that claim to hold the Christ or the keys to heaven. Jesus also warned the Disciples about those that would come saying "see here or see there" to find the Christ. The implication is the RCC says come here to where the Christ may be found, "within our holy order" Jesus said, do not follow them.

1 John 2:18-19
[sup]18 [/sup]Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [sup]19 [/sup]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Luke 17:
[sup]20 [/sup]Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; [sup]21 [/sup]nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
[sup]22 [/sup]Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. [sup]23 [/sup]And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’[sup][e][/sup] Do not go after them or follow them.

.

 

[epostle1]

What's the thread title again? Oh yea, The Church is Not the Source of Truth. Hmm... seems I've agreed with this at least twice. It seems that whenever an informative, thorough and well written post by a Catholic that cannot be refuted appears, or requires a reading level above elementary school, the hate cultists come out of the woodwork and whip Catholics with 39 lashes, or spew the usual raw hate speech, or intentionally misquote (straw man) repeatedly. I'm thinking of starting a new thread called Profiling the Forum Christian Taliban. What would be the point. But, I have the comforting words of Jesus:

Matt. 5:11​

 

[Nomad]

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Your proof-text has nothing to do with the Church or the Scriptures as "the final authority on questions of faith." It speaks to how Church discipline is to be handled. Your mishandling of Biblical texts is appalling.

 

[Axehead]

Spokesmen Chosen by God!

It was not the church that authenticated the Apostolic message, but rather the Holy Spirit. It is important to notice that God chose his prophets by Divine call in Old Testament time, and verified their message by miracles and prophetic announcements about the future. Just so, God chose the spokesmen for the New Covenant message and gave ample confirmation of their testimony through miraculous manifestations.

Luke 1:1-2 - states that the historical account of Jesus' life and message contained in His Gospel came from Apostolic sources: "...even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word..."

Luke 24:48-49 - Jesus told the Apostles: "Ye are witnesses of these things. And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."

Luke reconfirms the promise of Jesus to the apostles in Acts 1:8 "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Jesus told the apostles: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you, that you should go forth and bear fruit." (John 15:16, 15:19; see also John 6:70 - "Have not I chosen you twelve?")

Acts 10:40 - Peter affirms about the resurrected Jesus: "Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead."

Paul was later added to the twelve - and he affirmed consistently that he "was called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God" (1 Cor 1:1, Gal 1:1, Eph 1:1)

Paul wanted everyone to acknowledge the apostles as "ministers of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God" (1 Cor 4:1-2).

Paul stated: "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant" (The last sentence is also translated, "If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored."

It is conceded that the church was established on the day of Pentecost, before any of the New Testament books were written. But that does not mean that the church was the source of the Gospel message - we can see from Scripture that it was not only the product of the message but the product of the Life of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

What the apostles and prophets taught verbally was exactly the same message they proceeded to commit to written form on pages of inspiration.

Axehead

 

[epostle1]

Your proof-text has nothing to do with the Church or the Scriptures as "the final authority on questions of faith." It speaks to how Church discipline is to be handled. Your mishandling of Biblical texts is appalling.

Matt. 18:17-18 - 17 If he refuses to listen to them, qtell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, rlet him be to you as sa Gentile and sa tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, twhatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed6 in heaven.

Tell us how your church binds "whatever" in heaven. And how is it done. And stop suggesting that heaven can bind an error.

 

[Axehead]

Matt. 18:17-18 - 17 If he refuses to listen to them, qtell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, rlet him be to you as sa Gentile and sa tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, twhatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed6 in heaven.

Tell us how your church binds "whatever" in heaven. And how is it done. And stop suggesting that heaven can bind an error.

A thorough study of Matthew 16:13-20 is a prerequisite for refuting your (RCC) interpretation of this text, Kepha. Every detail of these verses disproves the RCC's gratuitous affirmations.

It is only by the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ, that Peter was given the authority of Christ Himself (Matthew 28:18).

Along with the other disciples (Matthew 18:18) who served as apostles in the church, they will allow or disallow through Christ's authority, specifics (as the Spirit of God directs them) of the physical expression of the new community of God's people.

They will prohibit or authorize according to God's will (and this will be in harmony with God's heavenly and spiritual objectives). Jesus was never conferring upon Peter the personal priority and supremacy which became the foundation of the religious papacy of the Roman church.

Just as Abraham personified the rock of faith in the old covenant (Isaiah 51:1), Peter is now personifying the expression and faith that will allow a person to receive Jesus Christ and be spiritually united with Him and His spiritual Body, the New Israel.

I will go back to Matthew 16:13 (as I said before) and refute the gratuitous proclamation of the Catholic Church, but now, I am tired and must sleep.

Axehead

 

[epostle1]

Notice that Axehead can't or won't identify who this "church" is in Matt. 18:17-18 , says "It is only by the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ, that Peter was given the authority of Christ Himself (Matthew 28:18). " And then contradicts himself by saying Jesus was never conferring upon Peter the personal priority and supremacy which became the foundation of the religious papacy of the Roman church.

Mark Bonocore debates Jason Engwer and blows Axehead's opinion right out of the water.

 

[mjrhealth]

And the Holy Spirit, the one whom Christ sends to us to teach us the truth, left out as always, beacuse those of the world cannot receive Him. Why have the truth, the lie is more entertaining.

In All His Love

 

[epostle1]

And the Holy Spirit, the one whom Christ sends to us to teach us the truth, left out as always, beacuse those of the world cannot receive Him. Why have the truth, the lie is more entertaining.

In All His Love

Then you should have no problem finding a verse where the Holy Spirit teaches individuals apart from the Church.

 

[jiggyfly]

Then you should have no problem finding a verse where the Holy Spirit teaches individuals apart from the Church.

What about Paul?
15 But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him16 to reveal his Son to me so that I would proclaim the Good News about Jesus to the Gentiles. When this happened, I did not rush out to consult with any human being. 17 Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to consult with those who were apostles before I was. Instead, I went away into Arabia, and later I returned to the city of Damascus.
Gal 1:15-17 (NLT)

 

[Axehead]

Notice that Axehead can't or won't identify who this "church" is in Matt. 18:17-18 , says "It is only by the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ, that Peter was given the authority of Christ Himself (Matthew 28:18). " And then contradicts himself by saying Jesus was never conferring upon Peter the personal priority and supremacy which became the foundation of the religious papacy of the Roman church.

Mark Bonocore debates Jason Engwer and blows Axehead's opinion right out of the water.

Kepha, I know you are wanting me to identify a church out of the yellow pages or from the Saturday morning paper, but that institution may only have some members of the church in it and is not THE CHURCH. The Lord knows them that are His and they are scattered throughout the world. His Church is not a "temple made with hands".

Here is the Church for you:

The Church of God is described throughout the NT. "Church" being an assembly of believers in different localities.
Here is the Church of God in Corinth and you can see what qualifies one to be in the Church of God.
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Here we have the churches of Galatia:
Gal 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Churches throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria.
Act 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Now, men have created religious organizations with names, through the centuries. There are para-church ministries, there are denominations, there are Believers that meet in homes or even in forests and other hidden places (for those who are not allowed to meet). The Bible says that the Lord knows all of them that are His and Christians with the Spirit will be given a witness (after a time of fellowship) of others whether they seem to know the Lord or not. True, many have been fooled, but that does not invalidate the faith of those who have been deceived by wolves in sheep's clothing.

Again, I know that you are looking for a name to bring all Believers under, but the only name I can give you is not in the Yellow Pages but in the Bible pages. It is the Church of the Living God. I am very happy with the Bible name and I have met children of God in many and various organizations on earth. You do know don't you that one can be in a church with a name and still be part of the Church of God? If I was to say, the Church in Singapore is the Church of God, I would be wrong. I couldn't say the Church in America or the Church in Europe as that would be incorrect, too. If I said the Methodist Church that would not be right, because although that church has believers in it, it does not encompass the whole of the Church of God. There are many Believers that I will have left out if I say it is the Methodist Church. The Church of God is bigger than any one religious organization on earth. The Church of God is bigger than all the house churches in the world combined.

The Church of God IS the Church of God. This is basic. Those who are of God have great unity of Spirit when they meet one another.

If anyone tries to tell you that this religious organization or that religious organization is the Church of God, you can believe that they are wrong.

2Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Also, every child of God has authority, Kepha. We don't have to call a priest to cast out a demon or pray in Jesus' Name. Our authority is in Christ who lives in us. Nothing contradictory about my statement regarding Peter.

1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Axehead

 

[epostle1]

Paul is an Apostle, not just any individual. He was chosen directly by God. Do you claim to be called directly by God? There is no verse that awards this distinction to any individual believer. Egalitarianism is not of God. Just look at the damage it has done to humanity in the past 200 years.

 

[Axehead]

Then you should have no problem finding a verse where the Holy Spirit teaches individuals apart from the Church.

Again, you are diminishing Christ by exalting your church. Everything we learn from the Church we must submit to Christ before we receive it in our heart and walk in it. Even if we don't understand something but have a check in our spirit, we are not obligated in any way to "walk in it", until we have been given light on the particular teaching by the Holy Spirit.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

No mention of the Church bearing witness with our spirit, guiding us into all truth, giving us confirmation that we are the children of God, or causing us to bear fruit.

WITHOUT HIM WE CAN DO NOTHING.

Axehead