I stated it for you because you have misunderstood how Rev 2:22 is speaking of great tribulation coming against the church just as Christ said His disciples would be called to endure.
The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14
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I stated it for you because you have misunderstood how Rev 2:22 is speaking of great tribulation coming against the church just as Christ said His disciples would be called to endure.
I'm not sure how many times I need to explain this to you but to clarify once and for all this what I believe....
The great tribulation is on the saints from the world.
The wrath of God is on the ungodly.
There can be many tribulations in life for example my wife is going through breast cancer at the moment, so it is a tribulation period in our lives that we are going through.
I'm not saying that our current tribulation is from God, its not, but it is a tribulation in our lives right now.
I don't disagree Marty, we too have gone through things in life that can only be described as tribulation, even great tribulation. But it would be dishonest of me to speak of the judgment of God against an apostate nation as great tribulation Christ says His disciples must endure as we seek to complete building the Kingdom of God in heaven as we proclaim the Gospel of Christ unto all the nations of the world. The biblical great tribulation is not God's judgment against apostates! That is and shall always be called the WRATH of God!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Did you even read the verse? It's not talking about persecution against the church, it's talking about God's punishment against the unrepentant. Just read the verse for yourself in context and see.
Revelation 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
The context of this passage is very clear and it very clearly has nothing to do with persecution against believers that they have to endure. First, Jesus criticizes people in the church in Thyatira for allowing the self-proclaimed prophetess Jezebel to influence them "to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols". Then Jesus said He would "cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds". That's a description of wrath against unrepentant unbelievers, not persecution of believers like the disciples had to endure.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Right. He has a lot of trouble keeping things straight. But, what he won't acknowledge is that Revelation 2:22 talks about great tribulation in terms of God's wrath coming against the false prophetess Jezebel and anyone else who was influenced by her to do things like commit sexual immortality and eat food sacrificed to idols and refused to repent of it. He is trying to claim that "great tribulation" can't ever refer to God's wrath and that's why Matthew 24:21 can't be referring to God's wrath against the Jews in 70 AD, but Revelation 2:22 proves that "great tribulation" can describe God's wrath.
I know that, but I prefer to engage directly with posters who aren't always ready to be hostile and disrespectful. This is a little selfish on my part, because with me hostility invites hostility, and I don't wish to become one who replies in a manner that does not bring glory to God.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
As if you've never been hostile and disrespectful to me? You know you have. Also, you don't seem to understand that we're supposed to rebuke fellow believers when they blatantly twist God's word as you are doing with Revelation 2:22. It's not acceptable and I'm not going to sugarcoat that. You need to be honest with scripture like Revelation 2:22 instead of blatantly changing it from being great tribulation in relation to God's wrath against unrepentant unbelievers like Jezebel to being about persecution against believers instead.
Yes, the unrepentant who are in the church, they are among those who Christ says, "I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first." These are those who profess and appear to be true believers, but then Christ says, "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." Those who were of the church in Thyatira began well but they allowed an evil influence, Jezebel, who was of the spirit of Satan to bring false prophecies that led to the servants of Christ committing fornication, and to give in to idol sacrifices. Christ says Jezebel was given opportunity to repent but she did not. Therefore, she will be cast into bed, implying some form of sickness, and those who have committed adultery with her will come under great tribulation unless they repent. And Christ says He will put to death her children and "all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." Those of the church of Thyatira who engaged with evil will come under great tribulation because of this evil allowed to be in the church with faithful saints. This is the working of Satan bringing great tribulation to the church through "many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." (Mt 24:11) Exactly as Christ warned them they should expect and must endure.
But those of the church in Thyatira who have not been deceived by this false doctrine, who know the depths of SATAN, Christ promises no other burden to them.
Revelation 2:24 (KJV) But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
The body of Christ, called church on this earth is one body, even though there are many false deceivers among the body whom through shall come great tribulation to the church, disciples, body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:25-27 (KJV) That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
I don't believe that Marty! I believe 70 AD is tribulation in your eyes, but for those who were there understood it to be the WRATH of God that He had many, many, many times warned them would be their fate because of spiritual apostacy and idolatry.
Matthew 3:7 (KJV) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Do you think that describes Jezebel and others who practiced sexual immorality and ate food sacrificed to idols? It does not. It describes those in the church as a whole and Jesus goes on in verse 20 to criticize them for allowing and tolerating that kind of unrepentant wicked behavior that Jezebel and others were practicing to occur within the church.
He wasn't referring to literally everyone in the church there. Just those who were following after the wicked behavior of Jezebel.
And what is the nature of that "great tribulation" that would occur if they didn't repent? It would be His wrath, right? You seem to try to claim that "great tribulation" always refers to persecution and tribulation for true believers, but that verse is talking about Christ's wrath against unrepentant unbelievers like Jezebel.
And that "great tribulation" would be Christ's wrath, right?
What? This is why you believe I get hostile with you sometimes. Because of how I react when you say things like this. It's not because I have anything against you personally, but because of you blatantly changing the context of scripture like this. It's just unacceptable. Look up any commentary you can find on Revelation 2:22 and see if you can find anyone who agrees with your interpretation. I doubt it.
Jesus talked about Himself bringing great tribulation against them if they didn't repent as punishment. It has nothing to do with Satan bringing great tribulation to the church. The great tribulation would come from Jesus Himself in the form of His wrath and punishment against them for being unrepentant. That is completely different than enduring temptation from Satan.
It's not talking about anyone enduring great tribulation, it's talking about great tribulation bringing death to anyone who committed spiritual adultery with Jezebel.
Revelation 2:23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
Please address what I'm saying here and explain why you would not think that it's talking about Jesus saying that He would take out His wrath and punish Jezebel and that He would also punish any others for committing spiritual adultery with her if they did not repent.
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Of course many knew that it was the wrath of God, how can you not see what I'm saying?
It was the wrath of God but a time of tribulation for them. Not the same tribulation as in upon the church but a type tribulation to them
You are hung up on a word but not understanding that that word can have different meanings
It's not the wrath of God upon them, but as Christ says it is "great tribulation"! Because great tribulation comes to the church through evil power, humans who are the spirit of Satan, acting like and through the power of their father the Devil. When God pours out his wrath, He will not provide a time for repentance.
If great tribulation comes from Christ, why does He write of those who have not known the depths of SATAN? Because great tribulation was ordained to come to the church of Thyatira because the church allowed Satan, using Jezebel to try to bring the whole church to ruin! Great tribulation comes to the church (disciples) through the world, the flesh and Satan. When WRATH is poured out it is directly from God!
Not once in the letter to Thyatira does Christ speak of the wrath of God coming upon them!
Revelation 2:18-29 (KJV) And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
What is your point in continuing to repeat this! Is it not because you are trying very hard to prove your unbiblical doctrine? It is your doctrine that says 70 AD had to be great tribulation that Christ assigns specifically to His disciples, because if it is not great tribulation upon the apostate nation of Israel your doctrine is proven false!
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Yep
wrath can come from satan, God or anyone.
tribulation can come from satan, God or anyone.
"the wrath of God" in an endtimes sense is upon the unsaved after "the (great) tribulation" is over and "the (great) tribulation" is from satan upon the world, namely the Church
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You have decided that "great tribulation" can't refer to God's wrath, but that is exactly how it is described. Jesus Himself said He would bring great tribulation upon them if they did not repent of their wickedness.
God's wrath occurs after He provides time for people to repent first and that is what Revelation 2:21-22 indicates. And, notice that the "great tribulation" Jesus Himself casts them into results in their death if they don't repent. How does that not describe His wrath?
Revelation 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
This text is explicit and very straightforward. Jesus said He Himself would "cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds". He said nothing about Satan doing that. And he indicated that "great tribulation" would involve Him killing "her children with death". If that isn't a description of His wrath coming against those who are unrepentant, I don't know what does. It's very similar to what will happen on a global scale when Jesus returns. He's giving people time to repent and when that time runs out He will destroy them, just as we can read about in 2 Peter 3:8-12.
Why would you even ask this question in light of what the text explicitly says?
Revelation 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
Jesus said that He Himself would cast Jezebel and "those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds". How much more clear can this be that this "great tribulation" that Jesus talked about would come from Christ?
Except for when He explicitly talks about punishing them with death for being unrepentant, you mean? He explicitly said that He would kill them if they didn't repent. How can that not be considered God's wrath?
Marty, when did I say that you said "the great tribulation that Jesus assigned to the church was the wrath of God"??? What you're repeating is your belief that 70 AD was great tribulation toward the apostate nation; Israel, instead of the wrath of God. You continue to repeat the wrath of God that brought the nation to utter ruin was great tribulation. I believe you repeat this because the Preterit doctrine tells us great tribulation Christ said would come pertains to 70 AD, and that AOD came through the Roman Army.
It's this easy
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
The wrath of God (or the tribulation) will come on these people who some thought were in the church but they never actually were if they don't repent
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