The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[rwb]

I think that you meant this for spiritual Israelite not me

I stated it for you because you have misunderstood how Rev 2:22 is speaking of great tribulation coming against the church just as Christ said His disciples would be called to endure.

 

[Marty fox]

I'm stuck on words Marty? I wouldn't say you're stuck on words but that you are stuck on the unbiblical doctrine of Preterism. Yes, I know you claim to be PP, but still cannot receive what is written. Even though you say you are only a PP you still insist that great tribulation from God came to apostate Israel, even though the BIBLE shows us it was the wrath from God, and not great tribulation that the church must endure not from God, but from the enemies of Christ and His church. Yes, words have meanings, and great tribulation against the church began to come when Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God. The wrath of God is God’s direct judgment and is often depicted as irreversible and severe. Scripture emphasizes that believers are kept from God's wrath, even though we are appointed to much affliction, (anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.)

I get that your doctrine needs for the wrath of God to be great tribulation against apostate Israel in 70 AD. But the Bible does not agree with your man-made doctrine. It is written great tribulation, affliction, anguish, burdens, persecution, and trouble come against the church on earth. But the wrath from God is always ordained for those who have not been born again, those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, children of disobedience, those who worship the beast, this describes apostate Israel in 70 AD, which is why the wrath of God was poured upon them, not great tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 1:6-10 (KJV) And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

I'm not sure how many times I need to explain this to you but to clarify once and for all this what I believe....

The great tribulation is on the saints from the world.

The wrath of God is on the ungodly.

There can be many tribulations in life for example my wife is going through breast cancer at the moment, so it is a tribulation period in our lives that we are going through.

I'm not saying that our current tribulation is from God, its not, but it is a tribulation in our lives right now.

 

[Marty fox]

I stated it for you because you have misunderstood how Rev 2:22 is speaking of great tribulation coming against the church just as Christ said His disciples would be called to endure.

It was spiritual Israelite who mentioned rev 2.22 not me

 

[rwb]

I'm not sure how many times I need to explain this to you but to clarify once and for all this what I believe....

The great tribulation is on the saints from the world.

The wrath of God is on the ungodly.

There can be many tribulations in life for example my wife is going through breast cancer at the moment, so it is a tribulation period in our lives that we are going through.

I'm not saying that our current tribulation is from God, its not, but it is a tribulation in our lives right now.

I don't disagree Marty, we too have gone through things in life that can only be described as tribulation, even great tribulation. But it would be dishonest of me to speak of the judgment of God against an apostate nation as great tribulation Christ says His disciples must endure as we seek to complete building the Kingdom of God in heaven as we proclaim the Gospel of Christ unto all the nations of the world. The biblical great tribulation is not God's judgment against apostates! That is and shall always be called the WRATH of God!

 

[Marty fox]

I don't disagree Marty, we too have gone through things in life that can only be described as tribulation, even great tribulation. But it would be dishonest of me to speak of the judgment of God against an apostate nation as great tribulation Christ says His disciples must endure as we seek to complete building the Kingdom of God in heaven as we proclaim the Gospel of Christ unto all the nations of the world. The biblical great tribulation is not God's judgment against apostates! That is and shall always be called the WRATH of God!

But it was a tribulation in their eyes

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I stated it for you because you have misunderstood how Rev 2:22 is speaking of great tribulation coming against the church just as Christ said His disciples would be called to endure.

Did you even read the verse? It's not talking about persecution against the church, it's talking about God's punishment against the unrepentant. Just read the verse for yourself in context and see.

Revelation 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

The context of this passage is very clear and it very clearly has nothing to do with persecution against believers that they have to endure. First, Jesus criticizes people in the church in Thyatira for allowing the self-proclaimed prophetess Jezebel to influence them "to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols". Then Jesus said He would "cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds". That's a description of wrath against unrepentant unbelievers, not persecution of believers like the disciples had to endure.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It was spiritual Israelite who mentioned rev 2.22 not me

Right. He has a lot of trouble keeping things straight. But, what he won't acknowledge is that Revelation 2:22 talks about great tribulation in terms of God's wrath coming against the false prophetess Jezebel and anyone else who was influenced by her to do things like commit sexual immortality and eat food sacrificed to idols and refused to repent of it. He is trying to claim that "great tribulation" can't ever refer to God's wrath and that's why Matthew 24:21 can't be referring to God's wrath against the Jews in 70 AD, but Revelation 2:22 proves that "great tribulation" can describe God's wrath.