The Covering Dynamic

[David in NJ]

Where do you see a covered mind in these verses?

Much love!

This is called do not overlook the 'obvious'

obvious point (a): "Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you,"

obvious point (b): "you (Apostlic commandment) be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

obvious point(c): "For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren..... that there are contentions among you."

obvious CAUSE and NEGATIVE EFFECT = " Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"

PEACE my Brother marks

 

[Timtofly]

Enoch was raptured way before all the tribulation started. He certainly did not go through the judgment with a boatload of animals.

He also did not come back to earth with that boatload of animals.

 

[Enoch111]

NT Gospel, Apostle writings and Revelation only speak of His 1st and 2nd Coming

Do you know why? Because when Christ comes at the Resurrection/Rapture He DOES NOT return to earth. He comes "in the air" and immediately returns to Heaven. So that is not a coming as described in His Second Coming (Rev 1:7).

Christ first revealed the truth of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture just before His crucifixion, and prior to that in His parables. Then Paul spoke about it many times, and the apostolic churches expected Christ to come for His saints within their lifetimes. The reason being that the Rapture was always an imminent event -- unexpected and unannounced (unlike the Second Coming).

 

[David in NJ]

Do you know why? Because when Christ comes at the Resurrection/Rapture He DOES NOT return to earth. He comes "in the air" and immediately returns to Heaven. So that is not a coming as described in His Second Coming (Rev 1:7).

Christ first revealed the truth of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture just before His crucifixion, and prior to that in His parables. Then Paul spoke about it many times, and the apostolic churches expected Christ to come for His saints within their lifetimes. The reason being that the Rapture was always an imminent event -- unexpected and unannounced (unlike the Second Coming).

Good Morning Enoch111

What would be great is for you to bring forth the Scripture(s) that show what you claim to be true.

Like this one which you claim = "Christ first revealed the truth of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture just before His crucifixion."

Thank you

 

[David in NJ]

Enoch was raptured way before all the tribulation started. He certainly did not go through the judgment with a boatload of animals.

He also did not come back to earth with that boatload of animals.

Enoch was in the midst of tribulation = fallen angels were on earth.

God took Enoch and will send him back to finish his witness against the fallen angels = Revelation

Tribulation entered the world the moment sin took over.

 

[rwb]

Very true, and in the rapture there is nothing that says He does this in front of the world.

So I fully agree, He came to earth once as a baby, born to die, and once as a King, to rule in power. Of course, Jesus had been here before. He visited Abraham, at the very least.

There is a terrestrial realm and celestial realm. Jesus comes to gather us to Him into the celestial realm while the earth-dwellers are being tested and proven. God took Enoch into the celestial realm. God took Elijah into the celestial realm. Why prohibit God from taking others into the celestial realm, if that is what He intends to do?

Much love!

After His resurrection Christ ascended to heaven and He was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom that all people, nations and languages should serve Him. His dominion everlasting, and His kingdom shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:13 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Daniel 7:14 (KJV) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

You understand there is a celestial realm of God, but you don't seem to understand that man of faith may only enter into the celestial Kingdom of God in heaven in spirit after we physically die??? It was only after His death that even Christ's spirit ascended to the celestial realm of heaven into the Father's hand. (Lu 23:46) It is from there where Christ is now, since His ascension there, ruling and reigning as King over His people who have died and gone through spirit to heaven, and also His people still physically alive on the earth. Nowhere in Scripture is it written that Christ our Lord will rule and reign ON this earth physically! Scripture states that Christ reigns OVER His people with the Father from His celestial throne there.

 

[rwb]

1 Corinthians 13:11-13 KJV
11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

There is no "covering of the mind" here in this passage.

Only that we see partially.

The veil is over the Jewish unbeliever, and is removed when the heart turns to Christ.

I'm going to stick to exactly what these passages say.

Much love!

Yes, but even the knowledge of the man of God is in part. If man of faith had all knowledge and understanding now in this mortal age we would possess faith, hope and love without ever doubting. Who among those born again can truly say we no longer have any doubt, but are of perfect understanding? Even Paul struggled to do that which is right always, because, like us, he too had an internal struggle within between our old man and the new man we've become.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, but even the knowledge of the man of God is in part. If man of faith had all knowledge and understanding now in this mortal age we would possess faith, hope and love without ever doubting. Who among those born again can truly say we no longer have any doubt, but are of perfect understanding? Even Paul struggled to do that which is right always, because, like us, he too had an internal struggle within between our old man and the new man we've become.

CORRECT

This thread is not about 'who is smarter' but that all of us are completely reliant upon the LORD, upon the Holy Spirit and upon the words of God.
These THREE are our Salvation, which is complete in HIM who died for us and has Risen to the Right Hand of the FATHER.

Divisions in the Body of Christ come not from God but from 'human conjecture' upon the Holy Scriptures.
It is this 'human conjecture' that creates coverings over our minds - no one is excluded but we are all called to One Truth.

Peace to ALL the Brethren in Christ whereby we have been accepted and placed into One Body = the Body of Christ

 

[Timtofly]

Enoch was in the midst of tribulation = fallen angels were on earth.

God took Enoch and will send him back to finish his witness against the fallen angels = Revelation

Tribulation entered the world the moment sin took over.

You require Scripture, yet point out nonsense outside of Scripture. No rebel angels come to the earth until the 5th Trumpet sounds. That is the first woe.

Enoch left 604 years before the Flood. Enoch left before Noah was born. You sure give those angels a very, very, very, long vacation between their disobedience and punishment. Do you think Adam was punished 600 years after he disobeyed God?

 

[Gottservant]

You guys believe scripture so quickly, but forget inspiration so fast!

All scripture is given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that should give you a heart of agreement, with your other brothers.

If there is no pre-trib rapture, fine, but what should those who have been waiting for it pray? What do you want me to pray for you, if you're wrong?

I understand we are all waiting for the Holy Spirit to guide us to all truth, but can you work out how to help people hold on to their faith - not let it go! Remember that the end does not come immediately (gospels, from memory)? Well, so if it doesn't come immediately, neither does forgetting it!

 

[David in NJ]

You require Scripture, yet point out nonsense outside of Scripture. No rebel angels come to the earth until the 5th Trumpet sounds. That is the first woe.

Enoch left 604 years before the Flood. Enoch left before Noah was born. You sure give those angels a very, very, very, long vacation between their disobedience and punishment. Do you think Adam was punished 600 years after he disobeyed God?

It has been at least 7,000 years since satan's rebellion with his angels and yet they still roam free.

 

[Cassandra]

If there is no pre-trib rapture, fine, but what should those who have been waiting for it pray? What do you want me to pray for you, if you're wrong?

Do you really think that if someone is walking with the Lord, and studies His Word, but doesn't believe in a pre-trib rapture, that they would not be a part of it because they didn't believe in it? I thought you guys thought that all Christians would be taken. So are you saying that if someone doesn't believe in a pretrib rapture, they are going to have to suffer here through tribulation, and that the pretrib teaching is essential to become a Christian in the first place?
I thought it was "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved", not believe on the pretrib rapture as well as the Lord, and thou shalt be saved.

What do you want me to pray for you, if you're wrong?

You should pray for the health of your brethren, friends and families,those who you want to coe to Christ, and that the Gospel shall be preached to all the world. Do you not pray for your brethren as a norm?

 

[David in NJ]

You guys believe scripture so quickly, but forget inspiration so fast!

All scripture is given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that should give you a heart of agreement, with your other brothers.

If there is no pre-trib rapture, fine, but what should those who have been waiting for it pray? What do you want me to pray for you, if you're wrong?

I understand we are all waiting for the Holy Spirit to guide us to all truth, but can you work out how to help people hold on to their faith - not let it go! Remember that the end does not come immediately (gospels, from memory)? Well, so if it doesn't come immediately, neither does forgetting it!

2 Peter 1:16-21
For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

There are no 'pre-trib rapture' prophecys/parables/allegories/declarations in Scripture.

We should be like the Apostles = "do not follow cunningly devised fables"

Our sanctification comes from believing the Truth of God's Word = John chapter 17

 

[David in NJ]

You require Scripture, yet point out nonsense outside of Scripture. No rebel angels come to the earth until the 5th Trumpet sounds. That is the first woe.

Enoch left 604 years before the Flood. Enoch left before Noah was born. You sure give those angels a very, very, very, long vacation between their disobedience and punishment. Do you think Adam was punished 600 years after he disobeyed God?

Job 21:30 - “That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.”

2 Peter 3:1-7
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

These are the kinds of comments that take away my enthusiasm. I mean seriously, I like you, you know that, and I don't want to offend, so it's best to just walk away.

Did you know I've held other rapture timing views? Did you know I've studied this for at least the past 20 years, in depth, myself? Do you know I can likely articulate the various rapture timing views better than most who hold those views?

You describe me as someone indoctrinated by others and unwilling to let go of my error. I don't think you know me very well at all.

Can you tell me where a description of all of the chaos and destruction that would result from millions of people disappearing at once can be found in scripture? Surely, if such an event was going to happen, it would be described in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you know why? Because when Christ comes at the Resurrection/Rapture He DOES NOT return to earth. He comes "in the air" and immediately returns to Heaven. So that is not a coming as described in His Second Coming (Rev 1:7).

Where does scripture teach that He immediately returns to heaven after we meet Him in the air? Why would He do that? Why would we not just meet Him in heaven instead of in the air if we're going to heaven at that time?

Christ first revealed the truth of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture just before His crucifixion, and prior to that in His parables.

Where do you think He did that exactly? Back up your claims with scripture if you wish to be taken seriously.

Then Paul spoke about it many times, and the apostolic churches expected Christ to come for His saints within their lifetimes. The reason being that the Rapture was always an imminent event -- unexpected and unannounced (unlike the Second Coming).

Where does scripture teach that he rapture was always an imminent event?

 

[marks]

Can you tell me where a description of all of the chaos and destruction that would result from millions of people disappearing at once can be found in scripture? Surely, if such an event was going to happen, it would be described in scripture.

That depends on when it happens. The end comes as a sudden destruction.

Look, there's a lot to this, and if your interest is to just destroy my argument, then there's a lot of effort we don't need to spend.

In basic outline, when Gog/Magog invade Israel, there is a worldwide earthquake, apparently the same earthquake in the Revelation, just after the church stops being in Revelation.

War, possible nuclear attacks, and worldwide earthquake. Millions will be dead and missing, with governments in chaos. And "No, that wasn't the rapture, look at all the "christians" still here!"

"Surely, if such an event was going to happen, it would be described in scripture."

Really? What makes you so certain? I can tell you as an absolute fact that not everything is revealed. Witness the 7 thunders, who spoke, and John was not allowed to record it. God isn't required to tell us what we think He should or would.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why would He do that? Why would we not just meet Him in heaven instead of in the air if we're going to heaven at that time?

Because it's His choice, and this is what He chose.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

These are the kinds of comments that take away my enthusiasm. I mean seriously, I like you, you know that, and I don't want to offend, so it's best to just walk away.

Did you know I've held other rapture timing views? Did you know I've studied this for at least the past 20 years, in depth, myself? Do you know I can likely articulate the various rapture timing views better than most who hold those views?

You describe me as someone indoctrinated by others and unwilling to let go of my error. I don't think you know me very well at all.

Much love!

So we have common ground in our lives as i also once believed in pre-trib rapture.

It was when i realized that JESUS said "Immediately after the tribulation............I will come!"

That began my search for the TRUTH.

The Script/Application/Procedure to receiving Truth from the LORD is the same for all of us = no one is exempt.

If anyone of us deviates even slightly from the Truth then our minds will be obscured from clear understanding.

Matthew 5:18
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, nor one stroke of a letter, shall pass away from the law, until everything should happen."

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

God never gave anyone the authority to add 'human conjecture' upon His words = this is where/how coverings are formed over us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That depends on when it happens. The end comes as a sudden destruction.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that you believe it is described in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3?

Look, there's a lot to this, and if your interest is to just destroy my argument, then there's a lot of effort we don't need to spend.

Why are you so sensitive about me asking you that question? I find that to be very strange. Do you believe the chaos and destruction that would certainly result from millions of people disappearing at once is described in scripture or not? I think this is a legitimate question to ask and you should not be offended by it.

In basic outline, when Gog/Magog invade Israel, there is a worldwide earthquake, apparently the same earthquake in the Revelation, just after the church stops being in Revelation.

War, possible nuclear attacks, and worldwide earthquake. Millions will be dead and missing, with governments in chaos. And "No, that wasn't the rapture, look at all the "christians" still here!"

I'm not sure what your point is here. Is this your answer to my question? Where is the scripture that speaks of millions being dead and inexplicably missing?

"Surely, if such an event was going to happen, it would be described in scripture."

Really? What makes you so certain?

Because every other event prophesied in scripture contains details related to it including the consequences and effects of it. Why not this one? I don't think it's reasonable at all to believe that scripture would prophesy about a rapture while saying absolutely nothing about the effects that would have on the earth.

I can tell you as an absolute fact that not everything is revealed.

I'm not talking about every little detail about what the effects of it would be, but there is nothing at all (unless you can show me something?). I don't think that is reasonable.

Witness the 7 thunders, who spoke, and John was not allowed to record it. God isn't required to tell us what we think He should or would.

I'm sorry, but I believe this is a weak response to my question if this is all you have. If you think God decided to not say even one word about the effects such an event would have, then why do you think that is?