The Criteria of Antichrist.

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brakelite

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Okay, to explain characteristic number one. The little horn, aka Antichrist, was to rise out of Rome.
The little horn arises from the fourth beast (Daniel 7:8). The fourth beast represents Rome, so the little horn must be a Roman power.

Remember the image of Daniel 2? The legs were of iron, but the feet were of iron and clay. What does the clay represent? We know the iron represents pagan Rome. In fact, throughout history Rome has been recognised as the ‘Iron Kingdom’ or Empire. But what of the clay that is in union with the iron, but unable to cleave to one another?
The Bible is its own best expositor, so we shall go to the word of God to find our answer.

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

So according to the above evidence, we see that clay represents God’s people, or His church. Therefore we can justifiably conclude that the feet of the image in Daniel 2, made of iron and clay, is a union of church and state. We see also in the text of Daniel 2 that the clay is miry clay. Miry clay is unworkable. It cannot be shaped by the potter into anything useful; it is fit only to be discarded. It may have begun its life as suitable clay for the fashioning of the potter, but became miry. This is therefore signifying the apostasy Paul spoke of that would take place after he had gone and before Christ comes. Thus it is an apostate church in union with the Roman power. Apostasy as most would appreciate is a falling away from grace, a state where previously the church was in a right relationship with God, but is now separated, the word apostasy in the Greek originally suggesting divorce. Understandable then when we later see the rock of Christ destroying the image, including the iron /clay union.
So according to Daniel 2, there is a union of church and state, and this union is Roman, and continues to be Roman, without pause or break, from the time of paganism to the present day and on until the second coming.
There is only one viable candidate that answers to the description. There is only one church power that grew out of Rome, there is only one church/state union that grew out of the Roman Empire, and continues to the present time. And that is the Roman Catholic Church.
The religion of Rome was adopted by the church. It is well known that Constantine the Great brought all sorts of pagan practices into the church. This is recognised by both secular and church historians. In fact, the name “Supreme Pontiff” (Pontifex Maximus) was used by the pagan Roman emperors. After the Edict of Milan was signed in the year 312 A. D., Christians were restored as bona fide citizens of the Roman empire.

Constantine, emperor of the Roman empire, was the architect of this Edict of Milan.
Regarding Constantine,Dave Hunt remarks:
“A brilliant military commander, Constantine also understood that there could be no political stability without religious unity. Yet to accomplish that feat would require a union between paganism and Christianity. How could it be accomplished? The Empire needed an ecumenical religion that would appeal to every citizen in a multi-cultural society. Giving Christianity official status was not enough to bring internal peace to the Empire: Christianity had to undergo a transformation so that pagans could ‘convert’ without giving up their old beliefs and rituals.
Constantine himself exemplified this expediency. He adopted Christ as the new god that had given him victory in the crucial battle at Milvian Bridge in 312 A. D., and brought him into Rome as its conqueror. Yet, as Caesar, he continued to function as the Pontifex Maximus of the Empire’s pagan priesthood, known as the Pontifical College. . . As a ‘Christian’ Emperor, he automatically became the de facto civil head of the Christian church and seduced her with promises of power. Thus began the destruction of Christianity and the process that created Roman Catholicism as it is today.” (Dave Hunt, Global Peace, pp. 106-107) .
“It was ‘Christianity’, in fact, which gave the Empire a unity and continuity that held it together culturally and religiously. When the Empire later disintegrated politically under the onslaught of the Barbarians, it was held together religiously by the all-pervasive presence of the Roman Catholic Church with its ingenious ecumenical blend of paganism and Christianity still headquartered in Rome.” (Dave Hunt, Global Peace, p.110).

John Henry Cardinal Newman makes this admission:
“We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees, incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness, holy water; asylums; holy days and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments; the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleisen, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the church. (Henry Cardinal Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, p. 373).

Philip Schaff, one of the greatest church historians ever to wield a pen, wrote the following:
“But the elevation of Christianity as the religion of the state presents also an opposite aspect to our contemplation. It involved great risk of degeneracy to the church. The Roman state, with its laws, institutions, and usages, was still deeply rooted in heathenism, and could not be transformed by a magical stroke. The christianizing of the state amounted therefore in great measure to a paganizing and secularizing of the church. The world overcame the church, as much as the church overcame the world, and the temporal gain of Christianity was in many respects cancelled by spiritual loss. The mass of the Roman empire was baptized only with water, not with the Spirit of the gospel, and it smuggled heathen manners and practices into the sanctuary under a new name. The very combination of the cross with the military ensign by Constantine was the most doubtful omen, portending an unhappy mixture of the temporal and the spiritual powers.” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, vol. 3, p. 93).

“St. Thomas. . . says that the Roman Empire has not ceased, but is changed from the temporal into the spiritual. . . It was, then, the Apostolic Church, which, spreading throughout the nations, already combined together by the power of the heathen empire of Rome, quickened them with a new life. . . the temporal power in the old heathen empire of Rome, and the spiritual power in the supernatural kingdom of God met together. . . these two powers were blended and fused together; they became one authority, the emperor ruling from his throne within the sphere of his earthly jurisdiction, and the Supreme Pontiff ruling likewise from a throne of a higher sovereignty over the nations. . . the material power which once reigned in Rome [was] consecrated and sanctified by the investiture of the Vicar of Jesus Christ with temporal sovereignty over the city where he dwelt. And now for these twelve hundred years the peace, the perpetuity and faithfulness of the Christian civilisation of Europe, has been owing solely in its principle to this consecration of the power and authority of the great empire of Rome, taken up of old, perpetuated, preserved, as I have said, by the salt which had been sprinkled from heaven, and continued in the person of the Supreme Pontiff, and in that order of Christian civilization of which he has been the creator.” (Cardinal Manning, The Temporal Power of the Vicar of Jesus Christ, pp. 123-128).

...continued below....
 
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brakelite

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Notice the following amazing declaration by Cardinal Manning:
“Now the abandonment of Rome was the liberation of the pontiffs. Whatsoever claims to obedience the emperors may have made, and whatsoever compliance the Pontiff may have yielded, the whole previous relation, anomalous, and annulled again and again by the vices and outrages of the emperors, was finally dissolved by a higher power. The providence of God permitted a succession of irruptions, Gothic, Lombard, and Hungarian, to desolate Italy, and to efface from it every remnant of the empire [remember this fact of history. Protestant futurists rewrite history and deny that the Roman Empire was ever divided]. The pontiffs found themselves alone, the sole fountains of order, peace, law, and safety. And from the hour of this providential liberation, when, by a divine intervention, the chains fell off from the hands of the successor of St. Peter, as once before from his own, no sovereign has ever reigned in Rome except the Vicar of Jesus Christ.” (Henry Edward Manning, The Temporal Power of The Vicar of Jesus Christ, Preface, pp. xxviii, xxix. London: Burns and Lambert, 1862).

This might well be the time to speak of the mysterious “restrainer” that the Apostle Paul refers to in II Thessalonians 2, although I shall speak of it more fully a little later. The early church Fathers were practically unanimous in the opinion that the “restrainer” was a reference to the Roman empire in general and the emperors in particular. Paul indicates that the Church at Thessalonica knew who the restrainer was. And yet Paul speaks in veiled language. And why would this be? Simply because Paul could not speak openly about the empire which was governing in his day. If he had publicly stated that the Roman empire was going to be taken out of the way, the emperors would have had grounds to accuse Paul of sedition. So Paul had to be cautious in his comments. If the restrainer was the Holy Spirit, as many futurists believe, then why was Paul so cautious? It is clear that Paul could not define the “restrainer” openly. It was not necessary to do so because the Thessalonians knew what he was talking about.

So without doubt the Roman Catholic church rose out of Rome, inherited much of the pagan religion of Rome, and is in fact a mere continuation of the Roman Empire, only in another form. A further affirmation of this is in Daniel 8:9,10 which horn represents the whole Roman epoch both pagan and papal, we see a change in direction. Whereas at first its conquests are on a horizontal plane, in verse 11 it changes direction and focus and adopts a vertical focus, toward heaven, thus its interests turn from secular conquest, to spiritual. This kind of spiritual conquest by the Papacy is born out in her lofty claims, among other things, to be the spiritual leader of the world.
 
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brakelite

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truck's been packed since Wed lol, waiting on the women now.
do you get the symbolism of worm, bl?
Oh, I thought you ust have been and returned. Well, have a great trip whenever that is. I know what that kind of waiting can be like. But regarding the worm, no. YOu have me at a disadvantage there, I don't actually recall mentioning a worm. Pray , please enlighten me.
 

CoreIssue

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The one major change since the reformers is the hermeneutic used in understanding prophecy. You are a dyed in the wool futurist, and you are welcome to use that hermeneutic if you wish. If it suits you, and it makes sense to you, then by all means go for it. Just be aware of the fact that futurism as a hermeneutic did not evolve until the time of the counter reformation. The reformers were historicistys, as were the early church fathers, as was Jesus Himself. (See Mark 13:29; Luke 21:28,31; John 13:19;14:29.)
I choose to use historicism. That is the hermeneutic through which I will be presenting the following study. By arguing with me from your perspective that I am wrong and you correct, is like arguing the difference between apples and pomegranates. You have your opinion as to how futurism best suits your understanding of prophecy, I am going to present mine, but from a completely different perspective...and it does fit history, and it does fit prophecy, if you use the historicist hermeneutic. You cannot argue with my conclusions from a futurist perspective. Let us debate the pros and cons between futurism and preterism and historicism if you like, but that is another topic entirely. The following evidence for the CC as being the antichrist is correct, from an historicist hermeneutic. If you look at my presentation from a futurist hermeneutic, then of course, it is going to look all wonky and out of place. What I suggest is however that you try looking at things from my perspective. Then you may see things you have never considered before. That is what discussion is all about. We look at other's perspectives, how they read scripture, try and understand where they are coming from, then judge accordingly. What we do not do is judge prior to them even presenting their case based on their church membership or your own personal tradition and opinion.
I once was a futurist. Hal Lindsay's The Late Great Planet Earth was to me like a second Bible. That was a long time ago. I have learned much since then, and having a Catholic background I more fully appreciate the reformers' views, and believe historicism, for me, is the more logical and reasonable hermeneutic to use particularly in identifying the Antichrist.

Yep. am a futurist. So is the Bible.

Jesus was a futurist. Prophecy is future.

Historicism is a minority view.

And of course I can disagree with your view when it disagrees with the Bible.

What makes you think in 57 years I have not already examined you view?

Time for you to be honest, What you claim came from the SDA false prophet White.


 

bbyrd009

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Oh, I thought you ust have been and returned. Well, have a great trip whenever that is. I know what that kind of waiting can be like. But regarding the worm, no. YOu have me at a disadvantage there, I don't actually recall mentioning a worm. Pray , please enlighten me.
ah well idk, it isn't specified, so i have only my impressions, but it seemed to me that worm is what i did as a kid trying to get my way?
 
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brakelite

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Yep. am a futurist. So is the Bible.

Jesus was a futurist. Prophecy is future.
Prophecy was future from the time it was given. That doesn't mean it still is...at least not all of it. Is the conquest of Jerusalem by Babylon still future?

Historicism is a minority view.
Thankyou for that encouragement. I have never known the majority to be right in anything regarding religious faith and practice.

What makes you think in 57 years I have not already examined you view?
It has been 2000 years since Christ, and Christians still believe He went to hell and preached to the lost while He was dead. What's 57 years to discover or learn anything? Time is nothing. Having the holy Spirit to teach you is everything.

Time for you to be honest, What you claim came from the SDA false prophet White.
I have never hid from anyone on this forum the fact that I am Seventh Day Adventist. There is absolutely no reason I should hide that fact nor be dishonest about it. Nothing I write isn't from an SDA perspective. Except for the trinity. But that's another topic entirely. To attempt to discredit what I am teaching here on the basis of your biases against my church I find somewhat shallow and empty.
 
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brakelite

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ah well idk, it isn't specified, so i have only my impressions, but it seemed to me that worm is what i did as a kid trying to get my way?
Oh right. Okay. Like worming ones way into someone's good books...or worming one self out of trouble right? So who's doing the worming, and in what direction 009?
 
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CoreIssue

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Prophecy was future from the time it was given. That doesn't mean it still is...at least not all of it. Is the conquest of Jerusalem by Babylon still future?

No, but that does not make still unfulfilled prophecy something for the rear view mirror.


Thankyou for that encouragement. I have never known the majority to be right in anything regarding religious faith and practice.

So, the Apostles, the first majority, were wrong?

For sure, the SDA minority following white are wrong.



It has been 2000 years since Christ, and Christians still believe He went to hell and preached to the lost while He was dead. What's 57 years to discover or learn anything? Time is nothing. Having the holy Spirit to teach you is everything.

SDA spin. His very much alive spirit descended to Paradise and preached to the OT saints who had not heard the Gospel. He led them to Heaven at his resurrection.

Did White tell you the Bible was wrong? Descended then ascended.

I have never hid from anyone on this forum the fact that I am Seventh Day Adventist. There is absolutely no reason I should hide that fact nor be dishonest about it. Nothing I write isn't from an SDA perspective. Except for the trinity. But that's another topic entirely. To attempt to discredit what I am teaching here on the basis of your biases against my church I find somewhat shallow and empty.

You said you are SDA. But paint SDA doctrine as if you found it in the Bible, when you did not.
 

Nancy

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More than that Nancy. If you read carefully ...okay, I guess here we are going into another criteria, only this one is still future so cannot be corroborated by history as my 10 above....anyway, read Revelation 13:14 and it says regarding the second beast, that "they should make an image to the [first] beast" . Now the "they" spoken of here are the people. Here is a beast...a state power...asking the people to make an image. This is a democratic decision here. The government , at least this government, cannot make the decision on its own. It needs the people's approval, and because the "image" means a change in the constitution (the original beast is a union of church and state aka the Papacy) this second beast cannot become a union of church and state without the peoples' vote in repudiating the constitution of the state which denies any meddling with the church. Yes Nancy, I believe that second beast is the USA. Can we today imagine the US changing its constitution in order to establish a union of church and state? Can we imagine the American people approving of this, even welcoming it? An image of the Antichrist resulting in the implementation of the mark of the Antichrist? Yep Nancy, this has nothing to do with Muslims.

Everything goes around in a circle it seems. Man has since the beginning created their own gods. Images to be knelt before. Spirit is not seen yet...

"so cannot be corroborated by history"

Yeah, kind of hard to speak to something that has not yet come to pass, lol

"Yes Nancy, I believe that second beast is the USA. Can we today imagine the US changing its constitution in order to establish a union of church and state? Can we imagine the American people approving of this, even welcoming it?"

Yes, I can imagine this happening...if/when all the supposed "Christian" politicians get in office-convince their base that they and they alone are the "moral majority" and will surely fall off the cliff with the false governments forced "religion".

"It needs the people's approval, and because the "image" means a change in the constitution "

I can also imagine the extreme left getting voted in and doing the very same thing. 'Anything goes!' 'Create your OWN god,(as long as it is NOT Christian!' 'you ARE your own god!' so on and so forth.
 

Hidden In Him

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The fear today for many Protestants ought not be the resurgence of Islam, but in light of the above, rather the majority held position of Catholics on the Supreme Court.

Ok, I was hoping to deal with individual passages relative to the issue, Brakelite, so let me at least try and address one of them:

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. 5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. 6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. (Daniel 7:4-7)

Now the first three beasts (Babylon, Persia and Greece) were conquering empires. You seem to pass this over and claim we should be looking more at Catholicism than Islam. But which appears to be more amenable to military conquest in the earth today? Catholicism or Islam? Tell me what you think it means "it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet."
 

CoreIssue

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Let's get back to what the Bible literally says.

The AOD is the statue of the AC erected in the holy of holies and brought to life by Satan.

The AC is not the papacy. The AC rises out of the population of the people of the 10 toes, the little horn.

The United States has to be the western island that intervenes against the AC and turns him back, where he invades Israel instead of continuing his invasion of the Middle East. Who else in the West has the strength to stop the AC army?

The first beast is the AC, arising out of the sea, which in the Bible is figurative of a population. In this case the EU restored Roman Empire.

The second beast is the false prophet, the demon of which comes out of the pit. Most likely this is the Pope.

Catholicism is pagan Roman religion pretending to be Christian. The harlot of revelations.

The Dragon is Satan who is cast down from heaven Mid-Trib. He tries to kill the woman, which is Israel, specifically the 144,000 chosen and sealed by God. But they flee Jerusalem as told to do and are protected for 3 1/2 years in Petra.

There are no Christians or church in the trib. They were raptured.

The Bible is clear the AC false prophet are individual men. Not governments or religious systems.

Remember, Brakelite his SDA and all he is preaching comes from the false prophet Ellen G White.
 

Hidden In Him

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Just be aware of the fact that futurism as a hermeneutic did not evolve until the time of the counter reformation. The reformers were historicistys, as were the early church fathers, as was Jesus Himself. (See Mark 13:29; Luke 21:28,31; John 13:19;14:29.)

Ok, now stop this. I don't think it's deliberate, but you are giving false information here. The reformers were clearly historicists, yes, because they knew no better. But Irenaeus was by no means a historicist; he was so much a futurist I still marvel at how he could see as far into the future as he did. As for Jesus, every one of the passages you cite have Him referring to these events as set to take place in the future. How can you say those verses prove He was not a futurist?!
 
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farouk

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Everything goes around in a circle it seems. Man has since the beginning created their own gods. Images to be knelt before. Spirit is not seen yet...

"so cannot be corroborated by history"

Yeah, kind of hard to speak to something that has not yet come to pass, lol

"Yes Nancy, I believe that second beast is the USA. Can we today imagine the US changing its constitution in order to establish a union of church and state? Can we imagine the American people approving of this, even welcoming it?"

Yes, I can imagine this happening...if/when all the supposed "Christian" politicians get in office-convince their base that they and they alone are the "moral majority" and will surely fall off the cliff with the false governments forced "religion".

"It needs the people's approval, and because the "image" means a change in the constitution "

I can also imagine the extreme left getting voted in and doing the very same thing. 'Anything goes!' 'Create your OWN god,(as long as it is NOT Christian!' 'you ARE your own god!' so on and so forth.
What goes round, comes round.

There's plenty about Antichrist in John's First Epistle.
 
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amadeus

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... 'Anything goes!' 'Create your OWN god,(as long as it is NOT Christian!' 'you ARE your own god!' so on and so forth.
Oh but it will probably be called "Christian" but according to the now developing newer and politically correct definition of the word, Christian.
 
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CoreIssue

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Oh but it will probably be called "Christian" but according to the now developing newer and politically correct definition of the word, Christian.

I do not think there will be anything politically correct about it.

They hate the name Christ and the word Christian.

In mysticism, they talk a lot about ascended Masters and them returning to the earth to occupy human golems. Very demonic.

I have no idea what the labels will be. But it won't be Christian.

To be a tribulation saint means death.
 

amadeus

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I do not think there will be anything politically correct about it.

They hate the name Christ and the word Christian.

In mysticism, they talk a lot about ascended Masters and them returning to the earth to occupy human golems. Very demonic.

I have no idea what the labels will be. But it won't be Christian...
You may well be correct, but the definition of the word, Christian, for many has already changed. For a politician [elected government official] in our country [USA], he still wants to be known as a Christian for any support it will bring him and even if his reputation has already seemingly depicted him in the eyes of many as a devil. There are certainly seem to be few church groups [denominations] today that even actively direct their members toward a lifestyle moving really becoming like Jesus.
 

CoreIssue

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Revelation 16:13-14 New International Version (NIV)
13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
You may well be correct, but the definition of the word, Christian, for many has already changed. For a politician [elected government official] in our country [USA], he still wants to be known as a Christian for any support it will bring him and even if his reputation has already seemingly depicted him in the eyes of many as a devil. There are certainly seem to be few church groups [denominations] today that even actively direct their members toward a lifestyle moving really becoming like Jesus.

I agree. For many it has become more of a philosophy than a reality.

But it is irrelevant in the tribulation. The church will be gone.

Instead of Christian, tribulation saints is used.

Glad I won't be here.