The Desecration of the Second Temple.

[Keraz]

In Mat. 25:31-34, you seem to have neglected verse 41 of your reference.

Also stated in Matthew 25:45; how those damned peoples will be thrown into the eternal fire.
That this does not happen at the Return, is made clear by Revelation 20:11-15, when the final Judgment will take place.
Thinking it does happen at the Return, conflicts with all the clearly stated prophesies like Zechariah 14:2, Matthew 24:29-30 and Revelation 19:11, which do not say anyone will be thrown into any fire then.

Those that are "remaining", are caught up to meet the Lord at His appearance from Heaven.
It never says that He descends beyond the clouds in the air.

1 Thess 4:17 NEVER says Jesus goes back to heaven, either!
He is Returning, as it is said He would in 1 Thess 4:16; to the earth to reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

The physical change is corruption changing to incorruption. Having a permanent incorruptible physical body allows one to live forever physically. No death or decay in an incorruptible physical body.

The Eternal Kingdom of God, is Spiritual. No physical elements at all.

 

[Earburner]

Everyone who remain, as Paul says in 1 Thess 4:17a.

I have no idea as to what bible you are quoting from, but the word "Everyone" is not used in the KJV Bible.
First and foremost, Paul is specifically talking to Born Again Christians, about what WE should expect to take place when the Lord appears from the 3rd Heaven, into the 1st heaven, the earth's atmosphere.
1 Thes. 4[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Coming back down to this OLD earth, as you suggest, is no comfort!!

 

[Earburner]

Also stated in Matthew 25:45; how those damned peoples will be thrown into the eternal fire.
That this does not happen at the Return, is made clear by Revelation 20:11-15, when the final Judgment will take place.
Thinking it does happen at the Return, conflicts with all the clearly stated prophesies like Zechariah 14:2, Matthew 24:29-30 and Revelation 19:11, which do not say anyone will be thrown into any fire then.

1 Thess 4:17 NEVER says Jesus goes back to heaven, either!
He is Returning, as it is said He would in 1 Thess 4:16; to the earth to reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

The Eternal Kingdom of God, is Spiritual. No physical elements at all.

In all that I write, if I don't come out and say it directly, I usually flag it with a "clue", so that people will search deeper than they do, that they may discover it for themselves by God's Spirit.

I agree to most of what you are saying, but I don't think you are ready to hear all of it. So I will reveal some of it.
Jesus is no longer in His Preincarnate state, as He once was with His Father.
Because He who was always with the Father, but then was made to be flesh for our sake, He is now permanently identified as one with us, but is now Glorified. Such is the Sacrifice that the Father gave to us of Himself for us, His only Son.
Jesus, to usward, is now Himself the Kingdom of God, aka the kingdom Heaven. We, who are Born Again of His Spirit, shall see no other place of anything that looks like this earth or world ever again.

To be blunt and to the point, Jesus Himself IS OUR New Heaven, and WE TO HIM, ARE THE New Earth,
but at the moment, we are not yet glorified with Him.
Hear these words:
2Cor.4[7] But we have this [His] treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Does God's Righteousness dwell within you?
I surely do hope so, because NO OTHER "form of godliness/righteousness" is acceptable to Him!!

So now I ask you, where does the Righteousness of God want to dwell?
On this earthly globe, or in the "earth" of His people?

 

[Earburner]

Also stated in Matthew 25:45; how those damned peoples will be thrown into the eternal fire.
That this does not happen at the Return, is made clear by Revelation 20:11-15, when the final Judgment will take place.
Thinking it does happen at the Return, conflicts with all the clearly stated prophesies like Zechariah 14:2, Matthew 24:29-30 and Revelation 19:11, which do not say anyone will be thrown into any fire then.

As I said earlier,Judgment is clearly spelled out in John 3:18.

It most surely does say that, and quite emphatically of "when". I have already showed that with what Jesus said in Luke 17:29, but you want to ignore the word "when" in KJV 2 Thessalonians 1 verses 7-9 and in verse 10.

It is a simultaneous event of destruction and redemption.
Again, compare that to Luke 17:29.
How it went down on the small scale with Sodom, will happen on the Global scale, in the day of His Glorious return in flaming fire.

Edit: the Lake of fire, will be caused by Jesus' Glorious appearance from Heaven.
We will NOT be waiting another 1000 years for this, His vengeance. He has already told those who were under the altar that had to rest a little longer, FROM Pentecost. Yes, they are the faithful of Israel of the Old Covenant- Malachi 3:16 who had died before the Promise had come, who did Give the Holy Spirit to them also on that day. They are NOT Christian martyrs!

Stop thinking linear or chronologically like a man.
God thinks in the past, present and future, all at the same time. Put on the mind of Christ, if He is within you.

 

[Earburner]

1 Thess 4:17 NEVER says Jesus goes back to heaven, either!
He is Returning, as it is said He would in 1 Thess 4:16; to the earth to reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

I don't know if you have noticed, but in the KJV, wherever it says that we shall reign with Him as priests and kings UNTO God, it's in the present tense.

 

[Keraz]

I have no idea as to what bible you are quoting from, but the word "Everyone" is not used in the KJV Bible.

I use the Revised English Bible as recommended by the Wickliffe translators. The best translation avaliable from the most ancient sources. The KJV is superseded by all the modern translations.
Adhering to it is a bad mistake and just leads to confusion.

By 'everyone' it means; all the people alive when Jesus returns. They will all be Christians.

Coming back down to this OLD earth, as you suggest, is no comfort!!

Shows how little you know of God's Promises to His people. Isaiah 35:1-10; for starters.

So now I ask you, where does the Righteousness of God want to dwell?
On this earthly globe, or in the "earth" of His people?

Both.
That King Jesus will reign on earth, over His people in peace and prosperity, is clearly prophesied.

Stop thinking linear or chronologically like a man.

But I am a man. And God has given us His Prophetic Word in the way we can understand it.
Spiritualizing it, or shuffling the prophesies around is serious error.

Jesus does not Return in fire and the Lake of Fire is not part of the scene until the GWT Judgment.
Jesus does SEND fire, on His terrible Day of wrath; when He will not be seen. Amos 1, Psalms 18:11, Hab 3:4, +

I don't know if you have noticed, but in the KJV, wherever it says that we shall reign with Him as priests and kings UNTO God, it's in the present tense.

Most Prophecy is in the present tense. That is to reinforce the sureness of its fulfilment.
What exactly , EB; are you reigning over now? What does your wife say?

 

[Earburner]

By 'everyone' it means; all the people alive when Jesus returns. They will all be Christians.

Since Pentecost, the Gospel has been, and is still being preached. This is the ONLY time of God's Grace. "When" God the Father determines His Age of Grace has come to an end, for lack of faith, then shall Jesus return. Luke 18:8.
That is why Jesus does not know of the time of His Glorious return.

The key word there is "when", as it is stated two times in the KJV- 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 10.
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
> The reasoning for God's vengeance, is that all of such believed not the Gospel of God, who is Jesus Himself.
See John 3:18 for the two judgments of God.
This judgment is for eternal DEATH because of unbelief through Adam.

[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
> The reasoning for God's salvation, is that all of such believed the Gospel of God, who is Jesus Himself.
See John 3:18 for the two judgments of God.
This judgment is for eternal LIFE because of belief through Jesus.

John 3:18 encompasses the entirety of God's judgment upon man. Therefore, as the Gospel of Christ is still being preached in the world today, WHEN He does appear from Heaven, that will be the end of God's Age of Grace. We are in the thousand years of our reigning with Him, who hath (has now) made us to be priests and kings UNTO God, being His ambassadors in His stead.

Our differences of understanding, is how we comprehend what the thousand years is, and when it will be.
I see the thousand years as being totally spiritual, having begun since Pentecost, being that of Him depositing within us His free Gift of His Holy Spirit, simply because of having faith in the shed Blood of Jesus Christ. All of such have been taking part in His Resurrection, who alone is THE Firstborn from the dead.
Therefore, the time frame of God's Grace will end, due to lack of faith by people, to believe that God is.
Hebrews 11:6.
Luke.18[8] I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless "when" the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

 

[Earburner]

^ Just as we, who are of faith in Jesus, have each appeared before (come to) the Judgement Seat Christ, and are now no longer condemned, so also for those without faith, who HAVE NOT appeared (come to) the Judgment Seat of Christ, they REMAIN condemned already by the judgment of God upon Adam.
They never converted to Christ in their lifetime. There will be NO second chances for God's Grace unto them ever again. They are lost.
NOW is the day of His salvation.

 

[Earburner]

But I am a man. And God has given us His Prophetic Word in the way we can understand it.
Spiritualizing it, or shuffling the prophesies around is serious error

Wrong! If you are in Christ Jesus, then you are now "a new creature (creation)".
However, if you are not born again of His Holy Spirit, then you DO remain as "man", having not the Spirit of God, and therefore you still are "none of His".
Romans 8:8-9.

KJV- Revelation 3:20 reveals the very act of being born again by His Spirit (John 3:3-8).
Rev.3[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[Timtofly]

The Eternal Kingdom of God, is Spiritual. No physical elements at all.

So you reject any new creation. You think God has turned creation into God?

 

[Keraz]

Wrong! If you are in Christ Jesus, then you are now "a new creature (creation)".
However, if you are not born again of His Holy Spirit, then you DO remain as "man", having not the Spirit of God, and therefore you still are "none of His".
Romans 8:8-9.

KJV- Revelation 3:20 reveals the very act of being born again by His Spirit (John 3:3-8).
Rev.3[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Save your hyper- spiritual preaching for those with itching ears.
We are 'changed' at our conversion, but still remain human.

So you reject any new creation. You think God has turned creation into God?

The new heavens and earth and the new Jerusalem are not physical objects, which wear out. God's Eternal Kingdom must be Spiritual. Revelation 22:5

 

[Earburner]

1. I use the Revised English Bible as recommended by the Wickliffe translators. The best translation avaliable from the most ancient sources. The KJV is superseded by all the modern translations.
Adhering to it is a bad mistake and just leads to confusion.

2. By 'everyone' it means; all the people alive when Jesus returns. They will all be Christians.

3. Shows how little you know of God's Promises to His people. Isaiah 35:1-10; for starters.

4. Both.
That King Jesus will reign on earth, over His people in peace and prosperity, is clearly prophesied.

5. But I am a man. And God has given us His Prophetic Word in the way we can understand it.
Spiritualizing it, or shuffling the prophesies around is serious error.

6. Jesus does not Return in fire and the Lake of Fire is not part of the scene until the GWT Judgment.
Jesus does SEND fire, on His terrible Day of wrath; when He will not be seen. Amos 1, Psalms 18:11, Hab 3:4, +

7. Most Prophecy is in the present tense. That is to reinforce the sureness of its fulfilment.
What exactly , EB; are you reigning over now? What does your wife say?

1. Although I do adhere to the TRGreek/KJV, you should know by now, that any and all other versions are running rampant in all the churches.
There is nothing more confusing than 30 or more congregants trying follow along with a bible reading from the pulpit, by a version that only one or two have. Group bible studies are even more nuts!
I once had a parallel eight translation NT. I literally tore it apart, so that no one else would find it, in order to prevent the confusion that happened to me.
Nope! Never again.
For me my motto is, "Until that Day, stay with the KJV way" :)

2. I strongly disagree.
That maybe true for churchianity, but not for Christianity.
There will be "a falling away" from faith in the truth.
One sure sign of it, is the confusion about which bible one should use.
I say: "Until that Day, stay the KJV way".

3. And there are many verses out of Psalms and Zechariah, that Jesus fulfilled upon His first appearance. Try seeing that in Zech Ch. 14.
Jesus used a number of those words sporadically. KJV, of course!

4. You missed my point. We are that clay, being the New earth in which God's Righteousness dwells.

5. Jesus often times used singular words or groups of words, pointing to Himself as spiritually fulfilling the OT prophecies. That is why the Jews did not know their time if visitation. They tried to see everything that was prophetic, as being literal and verbatim.

6. I didn't know that Paul, Peter and John lied.
As there is no literal Judgment Seat of Christ, so also there is no literal GWT Judgment.
John 3:18 tells of it in the simplest of terms, whether we repent towards God through Jesus, or we don't.
Our names are "engraved" on the palms of His hands, and we both know that those palms are of Jesus, sitting at the right hand of God in Heaven.

7. I disagree. God is foretelling from His foreknowledge of events, that are to be brought about by the free will of man. Therefore, He knows exactly when to intertvene with His divine will.

I am not reigning OVER any thing or anyone.
I am IN the kingdom of God, and I am reigning with Jesus unto God NOW, during God's Age of Grace.
As an ambassador in His stead, I am a priest and a king for the salvation of others.

 

[Earburner]

Save your hyper- spiritual preaching for those with itching ears.
We are 'changed' at our conversion, but still remain human.

The new heavens and earth and the new Jerusalem are not physical objects, which wear out. God's Eternal Kingdom must be Spiritual. Revelation 22:5

As I said, I agree with you on the KoG being spiritual.
But when is the question. I say now, you say future.

As New creatures in Christ Jesus, Jesus said:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto you, ye MUST BE BORN
AGAIN. That has been happening on a global scale since Pentecost.
Heavenly Jerusalem has been filling up.

 

[Earburner]

Save your hyper- spiritual preaching for those with itching ears.
We are 'changed' at our conversion, but still remain human.

Yes!!! And we all, who are Born Again are waiting, not for another 1000 years, but rather for His soon to be Glorious appearance, so that we may be given the likeness of His immortality. THAT is all we are waiting for.
THEN there really will be no death, pain or crying.

I am not concerned about those with "itching ears",
It's those who are "dull of hearing" that are of my concern.

 

[Timtofly]

The new heavens and earth and the new Jerusalem are not physical objects, which wear out. God's Eternal Kingdom must be Spiritual. Revelation 22:5

The only reason why the physical cannot last is sin and decay. Remove sin and decay, and the physical would last forever. You are not giving Genesis 1 a good review, because you see it through the lense of Genesis 3, after sin and death entered creation.

 

[Keraz]

The only reason why the physical cannot last is sin and decay. Remove sin and decay, and the physical would last forever. You are not giving Genesis 1 a good review, because you see it through the lense of Genesis 3, after sin and death entered creation.

Sorry, I don't buy this idea either.
It is plain that there will be no physical world after the GWT Judgement. All we are and all we live in cannot be a part of the Kingdom of God.

 

[Timtofly]

Sorry, I don't buy this idea either.
It is plain that there will be no physical world after the GWT Judgement. All we are and all we live in cannot be a part of the Kingdom of God.

There was no physical world prior to the GWT. I think you are stuck out of creation at the GWT. There is no creation nor time for those dead at the GWT. Those living on the earth skip past the GWT. The new earth is immediately experienced as the old one passes away.

It is the same change at physical death, when the soul passes from one physical body to the next. Humans will just pass from one creation to the next creation.

Those dead will not experience life, but are outside of reality for the GWT.

 

[Keraz]

There was no physical world prior to the GWT. I think you are stuck out of creation at the GWT. There is no creation nor time for those dead at the GWT. Those living on the earth skip past the GWT. The new earth is immediately experienced as the old one passes away.

It is the same change at physical death, when the soul passes from one physical body to the next. Humans will just pass from one creation to the next creation.

Those dead will not experience life, but are outside of reality for the GWT.

If anyone can make head or tail of this ramble; good luck!

The end times Prophesies are not confusion, but a logical and coherent narrative.
'no physical world prior to the GWT'. ???? The world we are in now will continue until AFTER the GWT. Rev 21:1

 

[Timtofly]

If anyone can make head or tail of this ramble; good luck!

The end times Prophesies are not confusion, but a logical and coherent narrative.
'no physical world prior to the GWT'. ???? The world we are in now will continue until AFTER the GWT. Rev 21:1

Read the verse:

After heaven and earth pass away, only the GWT is left, for the dead. So the event does not exist in time nor creation. You claimed the GWT was before heaven and earth passed away.

No the NHNE will take place immediately. Not after the GWT. Only the dead are judged when time and creation do not exist. Time does not cease for the leaving. You put the living where they do not belong.

Creation does not happen after a non time event. Creation immediately replaces creation. The GWT is not a holding pattern where time does not exist. If there is no creation, then the dead exist outside of that creation. But the living are not suspended outside of time or creation, waiting for God to judge or create.

The living move from one creation to the next as if nothing happened. The GWT is not even an event, because that denotes time. When the dead stand at the GWT, there is no time.

The NHNE is not eternity where time does not exist. It is just a new reality and we are not told how time or reality will really work, but all creation has parameters that define that creation. How much different do you think it will be without any parameter we have now? Why would time not exist in the NHNE if it exists in this creation?

 

[Keraz]

After heaven and earth pass away, only the GWT is left, for the dead. So the event does not exist in time nor creation. You claimed the GWT was before heaven and earth passed away.

Well; all that is over a thousand years away yet.
We will have Jesus to teach us during the Millennium, so all that final stuff and Eternity, will become clear then.

But the confusion and shocking ignorance of events about the end of this age, is the tragedy. Many are deceived and that sets them up to fall away when what they expected doesn't happen.