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The Doctrine of OSAS

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justaname, May 12, 2013.

  1. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1)

    Either John was speaking in vain, since all sins are already forgiven for us believers, or we have conditions: to continue in the faith and honesty that we began with, that is confessing our sins and pressing on.

    We are offered so great a salvation, and many verses speak to this. But we cannot receive them apart from the verses which speak warnings to us.

    Peter says that IF we add to our faith (therefore continuing in the right course of this very faith) the character of Christ, we will be granted a plentiful entrance into the kingdom.

    The issue many have with OSAS is that for many, not all, it that is often eradicates the healthy fear of God that says 'he who stands, let him fear, lest he fall' and 'perfect holiness in the fear of God'. OSAS as I see it is an incomplete rendering of scripture, which does not take the warnings of God to heart. Rather it answers the warnings with 'surely you shall not die (even if you do what was commanded you not to do).

    God is no respecter of persons. He is merciful indeed, and willing to forgive, but if we are not humble and claim that we receive only good things no matter our lives, then we deceive ourselves.
     
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  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I don't think we treat the warnings Scripture any way special more than the assurance passages. We just don't disregard the warnings Scripture.

    It's like I mentioned to another that was having a struggle with their Church preaching doom and gloom all the time. I reminded them when Apostle John was told to 'eat the Book', and when he did it was sweet to the taste but as soon as he had eaten it his belly was bitter. For this world it's like walking through a jungle laden with booby traps. One can either walk about like Handsel and Grettle without a care, or one can be wise as serpents and harmless as doves like our Lord Jesus said.
     
  3. musterion

    musterion New Member

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    There's a third option: at this point in his letter, John was not addressing the saved but was speaking to unbelieving Jews, as would be his duty per the apostles' agreement of Galatians 2:9.

    Read the first chapter of 1 John with this thought in mind: "John addressed this first chapter to unsaved Jews - almost a short, separate letter unto itself - just like Paul made an evangelical appeal to those in the Corinthian church who might yet be unsaved in 2 Corinthians 5:20."

    Read it that way and watch how the clues in just the first 4 verses of 1 John suddenly pop out clear as day...John's preaching to the LOST.

    Best of all - it totally harmonizes the CONDITIONAL FUTURE-TENSE FORGIVENESS of 1 John 1:9 with the UNCONDITIONAL PAST-TENSE FORGIVENESS of Col 2:13 because they were speaking to different audiences. If UNBELIEVERS confess their sins, God is faithful and just (because of the Cross) to forgive them their sins and cleanse them of all unrighteousness...and if they do so, they are forever cleansed because God will have forgiven them ALL sins (Col 2:13). Go ahead, try reading it against traditional programming just this once.

    PS And 2 Cor 6:3 clarifies exactly what Paul meant about being adokimos in 1 Cor 9:27.
     
  4. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Well see....this was the point I was trying to make. You say that you "don't think we treat the warning scripture any way special more than the assurance passages."

    Which is all well and good....we must treat all scripture as equal...as it is.

    My problem comes when you say that you take the 'warning' passages to mean we can loose our salvation....full stop. You don't go on to then explain a way that you harmonize the 'assurance' passages. So in essence you are asking me to ignore...for no discernable reason...the passages that speak of assurance. You have to do something with them. Becuase just saying you treat them the same as the warning passages...well quite frankly that really not an adequate explination, because if you 'treat' them the same, you must come up against a contradiciton. You cannot ask people to believe that there are passages in the bible that explain that unless we 'measure up', or 'keep up' that we loose our salvation...but then there are also passages that clearly point out that nothing under the sun (or in God's created universe, including the spirit world) that can tear us away from Christ once he's "got us".

    Do you see the problem? There HAS to be a way to harmonize the passages. My previous post was explaining that it is not difficult to find such harmonizing (both rational and with biblical support) for "OSAS" camp.

    I'm simply explaining that you guys need to do more than just point out the warning passages and tell us we're wrong. You need to give a rational reason to suppose we're wrong, and, more importantly...a biblical reason to interpret your warning passages as just that...a warning we can loose our salvation. As of yet, I don't know that I've ever seen a good reason to do so.
     
  5. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    This is where context is key... and background information is helpful.


    8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.


    In the time when this epistle was circulated there were groups who were claiming a different gospel than the apostles. (1 John 2:18-19) One thing they were claiming was they had no sin, all the while displaying sin in their lives. This is John affirming the original teaching of humility... confession and repentance... and dispelling the false claims of these separatists.

    Looking further back we see the apostle showing how if we walk in darkness we do not practice truth, yet if we walk in the light we have fellowship and the cleansing power of Jesus' blood. (1 John 5-7) Walking in the light can be a metaphor for being honest with ourselves and with one another.


    Now we know that those who are saved do walk in the light. We know that those who are saved confess truth because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the reality of being a new creature with a new heart. This verse speaks nothing against OSAS.
     
  6. Dodo_David

    Dodo_David Melmacian in human guise

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    Prentis, on 15 Oct 2013 - 2:16 PM, said:[​IMG]
    Nowhere does 1 John 1 say that the author is speaking to unbelieving Jews only. 1 John 2:12-13 says the following:

    "I am writing to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
    I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning.
    I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one."
     
  7. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Prentis.

    For all that was said above, you need to understand something about the Greek of 1 John 1:9:

    Hal Lindsey said in his book Satan Is Alive and Well on Planet Earth in chapter twelve, "The Guilt Trip," (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1972, page 199)...

    Whatever else you may believe about Hal Lindsey and his eschatological views, he is RIGHT ON THE MONEY in this chapter! So powerful was this chapter in his book, that it soon stood alone in a booklet of its own called The Guilt Trip, and I would STRONGLY recommend it to every believer, particularly those who have a more "Armenian" (as opposed to "Calvinistic") point of view. There are many Pentecostals who have succumbed to adultery and divorce that could have been avoided if they had just learned this powerful message: GOD IS NOT MAD AT YOU ANYMORE!

    I study Greek, and I can verify that this is PRECISELY what the Greek of 1 John 1:9 says:

    Iooanou A 1:9
    9 Ean homologoomen tas hamartias heemoon, pistos estin kai dikaios, hina afee heemin tas hamartias kai katharisee heemas apo pasees adikias.
    The Greek New Testament

    9 Ean = 9 If
    homologoomen = we-use-same-words-for/we-agree-(with-God)-about
    tas = the
    hamartias = sins
    heemoon, = of-us/our
    pistos = trustworthy/loyal/faithful
    estin = is-he
    kai = and
    dikaios, = righteous/just,
    hina = so-that/in-order-that
    afee = he-shall-have-forgiven
    heemin = us
    tas = the
    hamartias = sins
    kai = and
    katharisee = he-shall-have-cleansed
    heemas = us
    apo = away-from
    pasees = all
    adikias. = unrighteousness.

    (I use "e" for epsilon, "ee" for eta, "o" for omicron, "oo" for omega, "th" for theta, and "f" for phi in my transliteration method.)

    So many translate the verbs afee and katharisee as future tense, but they are not in the future tense; they are in the second aorist subjunctive active tense (singular third-person). Thus, Mr. Lindsey's translation is a good one. It is future in relation to the subject, but it is a punctilinear action, treating the action as a single whole without any reference to progress or completion.

    Here's the word-for-word translation put back together:


    9 If we-use-same-words-for/we-agree-(with-God)-about the sins of-us/our trustworthy/loyal/faithful is-he and righteous/just, so-that/in-order-that he-shall-have-forgiven us the sins and he-shall-have-cleansed us away-from all unrighteousness.

    Let this sink in: The verse does NOT mean that we must get new forgiveness every time we sin; what it means is that every time we sin we must agree with God that it is indeed a sin and that it is therefore included in our forgiveness and our cleansing from all unrighteousness. This acknowledgement FREES us from the consequences of that sin because we agree with God that it, too, was included in the propitiation provided by God's Son.

    God's acceptance of us is NOT performance-based! To the contrary, we are accepted FOR WHO WE ARE! We are IN HIS SON, the BELOVED SON IN WHOM HE IS WELL PLEASED!

    NOW HEAR THIS:


    Ephesians 1:3-12
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved.
    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
    8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    KJV

    I honestly hope that this message falls on the eyes of everyone in this forum that God's power to forgive sins may be liberating to all!
     
  8. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    That's an easy way of brushing aside the warnings! So all the promises are for us and all the warnings for them.

    Only this doesn't work with the whole of scriptures, that Laodiceans are called a 'church', and threatened of rejection, and Hebrews speaks of those who are (and I quote) 'partakers of the Holy Ghost' warning them that if they do not bear the good fruit, they are good only to be burnt.

    Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    Tell me now, is this a warning to unbelievers, though they are called 'brethren'? Or is it another 'vain warning' of impossible things?

    People who look to save their own lives look for a God who forgives sin while leaving us sinners and powerless in our carnal nature, because they love to be so. But those who truly love God seek to lay their lives on the altar for him. Is flesh more powerful than God? Is God not able to transform us into his image?

    The gospel does not stop at the forgiveness received when we first believe, but bids us continue to be conformed to him, completely rid of our old ways and walking in his. There are warnings for those who would receive his forgiveness but desire and choose to remain carnal.
     
  9. Dodo_David

    Dodo_David Melmacian in human guise

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    Do we all agree that God is sovereign and omnipotent?

    Do we agree that God will do whatever He wants to do?

    Do we agree that God doesn't think the same way as mere mortals think?

    Do we agree that God can do something that baffles the mortal mind?

    Do we agree that God doesn't have to explain to mere mortals why He does what He does?

    I ask the above questions for this reason:

    We mere mortals have a bad habit of thinking that God will not do anything that doesn't make sense to us.

    It is as if we insist that every spiritual mystery must be solved by us while we are on this side of eternity. Otherwise, we refuse to acknowledge the existence of the spiritual mystery.

    Who among mere mortals has the ability to proclaim with 100% certainty, "X, Y and Z are no longer saved"?

    God will know whether or not X, Y and Z are still saved, because He has perfect knowledge.

    So, how about if we keep encouraging believers to stay in the faith and let God figure out who is in the faith and who isn't.
     
  10. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I have a book ministry at work in which I share Christian material with my fellow work mates. One guy read a book and wanted to get saved. As he was afraid of my Pentecostal Holiness church he said that he would prefer a Baptist church like the one he was brought up in.

    Well, a soul saved is a soul saved. So I talked around and understood that a local Baptist church was showing a Franklin Graham testimonial film. So I took my friend. At the end of the film they had an alter call in which I followed my friend up. On looking around... There was no alter! They then took my friend (with me following) to a prayer room where they proceeded to talk him out of the thing. I am like... The guy has tears running down his cheek for the crying out loud! Say the sinners prayer and accept him in!

    Problems...

    1. They took the alter along with the alter rails out of the church
    2. They took my friend to a back room and shoved Calvin down his throat.

    It is my belief that they had the long ordeal because they did not want that guy to embarrass the Calvin doctrine by accepting Christ and then turning away. How they justify having an altar call when there is no altar in the church I will never know. But, knowing the Calvinist, they will find a way to justify it!
     
  11. Dodo_David

    Dodo_David Melmacian in human guise

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    Uh, did you ask anyone in that Baptist church to explain to you why they did what they did?

    If you didn't, then aren't you just guessing as to why they did what they did?

    Also, why fuss about the lack of certain physical features within a church sanctuary?

    Anyway, there is a difference between the OSAS doctrine and Calvinism. The fact that a church accepts the OSAS doctrine doesn't necessarily imply that the church accepts Calvinism.
     
  12. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    There is no crown of life without a crown of thorns. Men seek to avoid the cross for themselves and save their carnal lives. OSAS is usually used to enable this.

    Peter also despised the cross at one point, right after he so well answered to the question 'Who do you say that I am?', Christ explained what he must go through, that is the cross and the sufferings, and Peter rebuked him. But those thoughts were not of God, but of Satan.

    So it is today: many have had a revelation of the divinity of Christ and that he is the Messiah, but when they are told that they must be also now crucified with him, they reject this as a lie.

    To leave nothing to doubt, Christ continued after this by saying 'whoever desires to follow me must take up his own cross.' (This whole scenario is laid out in Matthew 16)

    To come to the knowledge of Christ and a revelation of Him is to be but the beginning of a supernatural walk in Christ Jesus. From there we are equipped with all things pertaining to godliness and called to be 'perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect' and 'holy as he is holy'. OSAS renders all the things we are called to attained and move forward to unnecessary and optional. Thus it is an unhealthy view that distorts the high calling in Christ Jesus.

    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matt. 16)

    We are called to do the works prepared in advance and walk in the Spirit, being conformed to his image. Anything that takes us away from this is not healthy doctrine.

    We are called into his perfection according to the new creation and his strength which is made perfect in our weakness. Anything that distances us from this distances us from the abundant life in Christ Jesus, and from the tree of life.
     
  13. musterion

    musterion New Member

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    Do you mean they actually tried to test him to see if this repentent sinner was truly one of their elect??? Seriously?

     
  14. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    At first glance you would definitely say that sounded dodgy....until you think it through. How many people do you know that have been swept up in the emotion of an 'alter call', and gone up, said the prayer...then never gone back to church? I know many. Hec....I even know many people who have gone on to be baptised...and then gone on to live a life that was clearly not for Christ.
    So...and I wasn't there, so I can't say for certain....I would actually say it might be a very wise thing indeed to take someone aside and make sure they understand what 'being saved and reborn' actually means. Making them say 'the prayer', and having both you and them think they're saved, when in truth they're not....how harmful would that be? Devistating. They would never feel the need to grow, or search, if they think they are already saved. No....it is far, far better to really stress the gospel again, and walk through what regeneration actually is....and really, going over Jesus, his work, his gospel...it can hardly hurt, can it??
    As far as the 'alter'....it's just wood. Just like the church building is wood, or concrete, or stone. The bible says such things don't really matter...it's the Spirit that matters, and when He moves, nothing can stand in his way. Saying that not having an alter is a stumbling block, is a little like saying that a baptism without water is null and void. And we know that even people in a place (like Africa) where water is scarce, that the Spirit still moves and baptises there. I mean...we could have a service or baptism in the middle of a paddock or desert and people would still be saved, still respond to the 'alter' call....because it's about Jesus, not a block of wood up the front.

    I'm sorry, but I find this post both a little offending, and also greatly indicative of your misunderstanding of OSAS...or whatever you want to call it.

    Firstly, I find it a little offensive because clearly you think that people who believe in eternal assurance are people who 'despise the cross'...in other words, not only don't we take the cross and the suffering that goes with it, seriously, but reject it. That simply isn't true....couldn't be further from the truth.

    Secondly you seem to understand that OSAS means that "Men seek to avoid the cross for themselves and save their carnal lives. OSAS is usually used to enable this." Again...you show that you have no idea of what we've been trying to explain.

    Let me see if I can put this a little more clearly....

    Eternal Assurance means:

    • That not even a single bit of salvation rests on us. Its is from God, by God and upheld by God. That way we have nothing to boast in. It was God's purpose to 'choose' us, to give us the Holy Spirit, who guarantees our 'inheritance', all for His glory. This is the main reason we can be 'sure'...it doesn't rest on human understanding, performance or mistakes...it rest on God, and he is strong enough and perfect enough to 'come through'....
    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10, ESV)

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
    In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14, ESV)

    • If our Salvation rests entirely on God, who is perfect in strength and in promise, then weight comes off our sholders to perform and not make mistakes. It means we don't have to 'work' to gain, or keep, our salvation, and that leaves us to follow Christ and walk in the good works he has prepared for us, with nothing but joy. We see Joy in Christ becoming a major theme in the NT:
    May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Colossians 1:11-14, ESV)

    If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. (John 15:10-11, ESV)

    And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 13:52, ESV)

    May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. (Romans 15:13, ESV)

    • And if we rest in both assurance of God's strength and perfection (his will to save us) and our joy in his promises, then not only do we delight to do good works, but we also delight in our sufferings for Him.
    Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
    For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (Romans 5:1-11, ESV)

    If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. (2 Corinthians 11:30, ESV)

    But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Corinthians 12:9-10, ESV)

    The verses above don't necessarily argue for eternal security (although please note the red highlights. The language speaks in the now...'we have', not 'we will have')...but they do speak to your opinions on it. We do not sit back thinking that because our salvation is assured we can 'take it easy', live the 'high life' and avoid the Cross and it's suffering. NO. All eternal security means is that I go forth to do good works and to take up my cross with nothing but joy in Christ in my heart. There is no room for worry over my performance or mistakes, because they might 'undo' what Christ has already done. Resting in Gods promises mean that I can focus on Christ with love and praise...even in the hard times. And how, I ask you, can that be wrong or unbiblical? I don't think it can be, as that is exactly what we see in Paul. (Although I have a good distance to travel on my path yet to even see Paul in the distance! What an amazing godly man!)
     
  15. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Actually, I have covered the harmonizing you speak of, many times. It's why I (and others) keep quoting the 1 John 1 Scripture.


    Let's break it down line upon line now...

    I Jn 1:6-10
    6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:


    John was not speaking to non-believers here, but to the Church. Note the word "If" he used. That's a conditional word to show one or more routes. Here he covered the condition of walking in darness while saying it's fellowship with Christ. That means to deceive oneself.


    7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Then John gives the other condition, the other "if", and it's about walking in the light, as He is in the light, which is to fellowship with Him. Only from this kind walk does His Blood shed for us on the cross cleanse us from all sin. Now John is going to tell us more about the difference between these two conditions.

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    Here come the 'if's again. If we say we do not still sin at times, falling short of God's glory (for that is John's idea here), then we only deceive ourselves. Why? Because in the flesh there can be ONLY ONE Saviour Who was without sin, i.e, our Lord Jesus Christ. While we are yet in the flesh, we ever will be falling short of God's Glory. And that's the most important... truth to understand about this, since Satan's temptation is to try and make us think we can be perfect as gods in this flesh.

    Does our Lord Jesus not know our struggle against sin? Does He not know that we will ever be falling short with this body of sin? Yes! He does know of our struggle here in this body of sin. And that's what the walk with Him is about, for by that walk we overcome sin through His Blood. What we could never do ourselves because of our on-going imperfections, He did for us upon His cross. But were we 'changed' then, given redeemed bodies with no sin, the spiritual bodies Apostle Paul spoke of? No, not yet. We have His Promise of redemption, but the body without sin is of the world to come, not of this present world we're in.


    Now the method He gave us to stay in that walk with Him, even after we have slipped up because of the imperfections of our flesh...

    9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Even after having believed on Him and been baptized, confessing our future slip ups is very important because that's how we stay in the walk with Him. This is what holy communion with Him is about when we partake of the Lord's Supper. It's a time of introspection with Him, confessing our sins to Him and asking Him forgiveness. He knows we are going to fall short, and this He has provided for all His Church during this present time until His return and the redemption of our body.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
    (KJV)


    With that last verse Apostle John seals the Message with a warning. It's because God obviously wants us to understand the difference of denying that we still sin vs. looking at ourselves to recognize when we slip up and admit we need to repent and ask Him forgiveness, and then get on with the work He gave us.

    So how do we do this in the practical sense?

    Well, I'm not a Catholic, so I certainly do not believe we have to go through an ordained priest everytime we slip up and need to repent (not that I'm against conversing with one who is ordained, I know a truly ordained one is going to tell me to pray and repent to our Father through His Son also). I go directly to The Father through His Son, in prayer. And boy, He well knows I ain't perfect and that I probably need to repent and ask Him forgiveness daily!

    Something I can attest to personally, and I mean this strongly, especially for the times we're in today. When I recognize my sin and go to Him with it, asking forgiveness, then I'm usually given more understanding in His Word, especially if it's something I've been struggling to grasp. I feel that applies to whatever administration by The Holy Spirit given to each one of us and that we were called for. But when I'm in a bad mood, feeling down on this world and myself, and don't take it to Him, then the gifts start tapering off, and it's my own fault. We can willfully disconnect the spiritual 'bridge' with Him by not making our walk careful. That is why I have a problem with man's OSAS doctrines, because I know it can lead one to that disconnect with denying they still sin at times.
     
  16. Dodo_David

    Dodo_David Melmacian in human guise

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    I, for one, have decided that God alone knows if a person is permanently saved.

    * * *

    Because God is omnipotent and sovereign, if He wants to, then He can make it so that a person is permanently saved.

    Who am I to deny that God has the ability and the authority to do such a thing?

    What requires us mere mortals to understand why God would do such a thing before He can do it?

    * * *

    Because God is omnipotent and sovereign, if He wants to, then He can permit a saved person to become unsaved again.

    Who am I to deny that God has the ability and the authority to do such a thing?

    What requires us mere mortals to understand why God would do such a thing before He can do it?

    * * *

    I prefer to say, "I do not know," than to argue about something that I don't need to argue about.

    Must I know the answer to a spiritual mystery before I can do the work that God has given me to do?
     
  17. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Firstly, thanks for taking the time to reply...and if I did indeed miss those passages before, then I appreciate you repeating them for me.

    Now...as to these 1 John passages. I'm afraid I cannot see how the link to the assurance eternal salvation, or the lack of it. Bear with me a minute:

    If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:6-10)

    This is not a warning that we can loose our salvation...this is talking about people who claim to be saved, but clearly are not. Note the comparisons....those who SAY they are Christians, but have no or bad fruit, clearly are not. Where as those who ARE saved, walk in the light. Consider these other passages that talk about being in darkness. They are talking of those who are NOT saved.

    But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. (1 John 2:11, ESV)

    Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14, ESV)

    Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), (Ephesians 5:7-9, ESV)
    Now consider all that talks about a person being known by his 'fuit':

    “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. (Matthew 12:33-34, ESV)

    So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. (Matthew 7:17-20, ESV)

    The very fact that Christ and Paul thinks to warn us to 'know a person' by their fruit, is because of the many people that claim to be 'one of us', but are not, in fact, saved. Their fruit is bad, and the walk in darkness.

    “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? (Matthew 7:15-16, ESV)

    Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:21-23, ESV)

    Our fruit reveals the state of our hearts. Good fruit does not lead to salvation, but the other way around. So it is with the passages in 1 John about being in the light.

    By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. (John 15:8, ESV)

    If our hearts are true, we walk in the light, confessing our sins. If our hearts are not true, then we walk in darkness, making a liar out of him and we ourselves lie. Note the last part of the verse:

    If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:1,4-5 ESV)

    Men who walk in the darkness, do not have the Word (read Jesus) in them.

    I suspect here is where you say: Yup, you just made my point...if you start to walk in darkness, Jesus in not in you and you are not saved.

    But the problem with that is that this passage in no way gives us leave to assume that is what John is speaking of. In line with other bible passages (and what we see every day in Churches) we can say very easily that John is contrasting between those who have been saved, who are in the light and are bearing good fruit...and those who only say they are in the light, but are clearly not.

    There is nothing in the passage, before it, or after it, that allows us to suppose this is talking about how we can actually be "un-reborn".

    See...I think there is a huge chasm of misunderstanding here, because I don't disagree with what you've said above...but that doesn't mean I have to be against OSAS.

    I agree that Jesus understands our struggles. I agree that we must confess our sins...not just 'at the beginning', but as we live, ongoing.
    But this is not a case of 'keep confessing or loose your salvation'. No....it's for sanctification. If we live without confessing sin and stumbles, it hurts our walk with Jesus...one of the most precious things ever! The bible says the walk of sanctification is to bring us even closer to him, to make us more Christ like. It does not say that confessing and then not confessing jerks us from saved to unsaved all through our lives.
    Most Christians I know are eager to walk with their Saviour, and feel it strongly when they feel their walk is slowly or even halting.
    Lets see what the bible says about sanctification, because after our Justification (which is in that moment of redemption) it is what takes up our entire lives, right up until we die and recieve Glorification.

    But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
    For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:17-23, ESV)

    For this is the will of God, your sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3a, ESV)

    They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. (John 17:16-19, ESV)


    Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, (Ephesians 5:25-26, ESV)

    Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it. (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, ESV)
     
  18. Dodo_David

    Dodo_David Melmacian in human guise

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    Uh, in this thread, the question is whether or not one can lose one's salvation.
    I suppose that one's salvation can become loose, too. :p
     
  19. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Pffft! Don't you love it when people stuff up words like that!? I do...just not when it's me!
     
  20. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    I am sorry if you took offense Rach, and I concede this: I might not of been clear on the fact that OSAS leads many to despise the cross, but I do believe that you can doctrinally hold the OSAS view and accept the cross presented you and it's suffering.

    If that is your case, that is good. But then I'm speaking to you on a doctrinal basis: while OSAS might not have led you to hold back from God, what is it teaching others when we present it as truth? How is our doctrine leading others who might not have had the same revelation of God as us, of his love, his nature, and might not be so moved as us to be crucified with him? How many gladly take on a free eternal salvation that is offered them selfishly, for their own safety? Meanwhile, Christ speaking to the disciples says 'whoever will follow me must take up his own cross', if we omit this from our teaching, how can we expect to make true disciples. True doctrine needs to work for anyone who believes after hearing, whether he has experienced anything of God or not.

    We could, on the first day, preach of OSAS, and then the next day about taking up our own cross. But how many would, after believing they have received a free salvation, come back the second day to hear the message of the cross? If we take the example of the ten lepers, probably one out of ten.

    This is why we must preach Christ crucified. We must die with him also, and it is imperative that we preach this truth along with the gospel, because it is indeed the gospel, it is an inseparable part of it.

    I do understand your concern for harmonize the verses you consider of 'assurance' and those you consider 'warnings'. But if we make the assurance unquestionable, we make some of the warnings verse false. Some say directly, 'brethren', and say "lest you depart from the living God", that is being there already, you depart, leave.

    However, consider that we are given assurance of protection in him. The great ark of our salvation does promise and assure protection, but only in himself. We have assurance that in him there is safety, if we make him our tower, yes we are safe, in the tower.

    The verses of 'assurance' assure safety in him, they 'omit' (so to speak) the fact that it is precisely dependent upon our abiding and remaining under his protection. They can do this because it is in the rest of scripture, and because the context often makes it clear. I have found it impossible to make the promises unconditional without making the warnings false, but have found great clarity when the promises are given proper context: it gives full meaning both to the promises and to the warnings. Reading it this way, I've found the promises to be exceeding great and the warnings fearful (inspiring the fear of God we are called to).

    Israel also received great promises, but Jesus said "how longed to gather you under my wings, but you would not". Jesus goes on "behold, your house is left desolate". They had similar promises of protection and prosperity (in a less spiritual way, more physical, but still real promises), and yet because they would not make God their ark, judgment happened upon them.

    Are we better than them? Are we God's favorites so that even if we disobey as they did, we do not receive the same punishment? There lies my contention. God is no respecter of persons, we are only safe if we allow him to gather under his wings, and learn to abide and remain there.

    Blessings!
     
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