The Doctrine of OSAS

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justaname

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veteran said:
What? Just choose to believe two doctrines that ORIGINATED from men when I 'know' neither one came from God in His Word? I would be denying to take God's Word at face value if I did that! Don't you understand the expression "at face value" that you used? It does NOT mean to blindly follow something, which is how you're using it.

What you're really implying is to take MAN'S DOCTRINES (Calvinism and OSAS) at face value, and not The Bible at face value.


NONE of us have attained to Christ's Salvation just yet, we're all still running the race. That's the first real fact of today that puts both in proper perspective. We have the 'promise' by Faith, but it has not yet been completed simply because Christ has not yet returned and our bodies have not been redeemed yet, nor has His Kingdom of the world to come happened yet.

Another fact: Apostle Paul's statement in Romans 8, "If God be for us, who can be against us," is ONLY... for those who remain faithful in Christ Jesus, even to the end.

NOWHERE in Scripture did Apostle Paul promise anyone that they would be saved regardless if they fell away from Christ. Good thing too, because that decision was not Paul's to make, nor any other man's, but our Lord Jesus' only.

What our Lord Jesus prayed in John 17 settles the matter, because there Jesus declared two separate groups of believers that was His desire that they both become one in Him and The Father. The first group represents His chosen elect that were already owned by The Father when He gave them to Christ (John 17:6 & 18). The second group of John 17:20 represent those that only belong to Him once they believe through the preaching of His chosen sent ones, and that group is still on-going today. It's that second group which are deemed elect also as long as they don't fall away. Afterall, as He said there it's His desire that both become one in Him and The Father. Likewise, it was the Apostle's desire that none within the Church would fall away. Didn't mean it was not possible for those.

Judas Iscariot is a separate case, because the prophecy of our Lord Jesus' betrayal had to be fulfilled, and Judas was ordained to fulfill it we know. But once Judas' place was filled among the 12, it did not change again.

Thusly, with what Paul taught in Rom.8 about the idea of being a predestinated one, the commissiion of Christ's Apostles must be weighed in comparison with the rest of the Church. And that's how both your two examples apply to both groups at the same time. The main difference being if one of the called (not sent or chosen but called only) falls away, then Paul's admonition no longer applies to those, for the fallen will have disconnected themselves from Christ's Church of their own will. Not so with His chosen sent ones who cannot fall away, because He will move them to do His Work by His Will and not their's.
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


Perhaps you should tell God His scripture is "mans doctrine"
 

Prentis

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rockytopva said:
It is my belief that the churches unraveled in seven ages as presented in the book of Revelation...

1. Ephesus – Apostolic – Leaving the first love… “All they which are in Asia be turned away…” – II Timothy 1:15
2. Smyrna – Martyrs – Persecutions ten days… Foxes Book of Martyrs describes ten Roman persecutions.
3. Pergamos – Orthodox – A pyrgos is a fortified structure – Needed for the dark ages.
4. Thyatira – Catholic – The Spirit of Jezebel is to persecute, control, and to dominate. Can invade any church!
5. Sardis – Protestant – A sardius is a gem, elegant yet hard and rigid. Doctrine in the head, little in the heart.
6. Philadelphia – Methodist – To obtain sanctification was to do so with love.
7. Laodicea – Charismatic – Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

The doctrine of OSAS is clearly a sardisean protestant age doctrine.
protestant-bible.jpeg
Romans 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

OSAS requires a pretty good pair of scissors! ;)
 

Dodo_David

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Folks, Arminians and Calvinists have been arguing about OSAS for centuries. So, nothing said on this thread thus far changes anything.

What is important is that we remain civil and respectful toward Christians who do not agree with the way we interpret certain Bible passages related to the OSAS controversy. Such civility and respect has been lacking in the responses posted on this thread.
 

justaname

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Prentis said:
Romans 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

OSAS requires a pretty good pair of scissors! ;)
It has been posted several times, yet for your sake I will post this again...

Perseverance of the Saints
by Nathan Pitchford

What God begins, he finishes
Psa 138:8 The LORD will fulfill his purpose for me; your steadfast love, O LORD, endures forever. Do not forsake the work of your hands.
Ecc 3:14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.
Isa 46:4 even to your old age I am he, and to gray hairs I will carry you. I have made, and I will bear; I will carry and will save.
Jer 32:40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Phi 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safety into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost
Joh 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Rom 8:28-31 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
God's preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith
1Co 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will
inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Heb 3:14 For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Heb 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Rev 21:7-8 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
1Co 1:30-31 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. Therefore, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
Gal 3:1-6 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain - if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith - just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Phi 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
1Th 5:23-24 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.
Heb 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
Jud 1:24-25 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Most have a distorted view of the doctrine...
 

veteran

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justaname said:
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


Perhaps you should tell God His scripture is "mans doctrine"
Anyone can pull out a single verse of Scripture and interpret it any way they want while disregarding Scripture as a whole within all of God's Word. The many Scriptures Christ's Apostles gave about the possibility of some falling away from Christ ought to be a lesson for you.
 

veteran

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Here's how my KJV Bible renders the John 6 quote:

John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will Which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(KJV)


Those words in bold are not absolutes. Like Apostle Peter said in 2 Pet.3, it is not The Father's will that ANY should perish but that all should come to repentance. That does not mean some will not fall away and perish of their own will.
 

Dodo_David

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musterion said:
The cartoon lampooning protestantism should be worthy of a mod warning. Has it received one?
I submitted a report about the cartoon through the regular process.
I do not yet have permission to use the editing tools that senior moderators have.
 

veteran

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So those who disagree with man's OSAS doctrines are to be moderated? That figures, goes with the "cartooning" of those on the doctrine that don't like what Scripture reveals against it. Maybe the choice of moderators here should be more moderated.
 

Dodo_David

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veteran said:
So those who disagree with man's OSAS doctrines are to be moderated? That figures, goes with the "cartooning" of those on the doctrine that don't like what Scripture reveals against it. Maybe the choice of moderators here should be more moderated.
The cartoon in question does not pertain specifically to OSAS. Instead, the cartoon is blatant ad hominem against at all Protestants.
 

Rach1370

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I have not had time to read all posts on this thread...so forgive me if I'm regurgitating stuff again....

But I wonder.....have any of you considered that the reason so many Christians believe is OSAS is because of the very nature of our God?
We know our God to be all powerful. We know that He does whatever he wills...and that whatever he wills, comes to be. His purposes are never...ever, thwarted.

Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases. (Psalm 115:3)

“I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. (Job 42:2)

Now...we also know that Salvation is not of ourselves. It is from God in it's entirety. We do not seek him, He calls us. He gives us the gift of grace and Justification. We do not hold on to salvation by works (although we do good works out of our salvation), otherwise it would not be a free gift.

“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God. (Romans 3:10-11)

For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. (Romans 3:22-24)

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Ezekiel 36:26-27)


So...knowing these two things about God...his will is never thwarted; and that He chose to redeem us.....I'm wondering why we think that anything outside of God, his grace, his purpose and intent for us; can then separate us from him? It seems quite simple to me....it is not my strength, or even, conversely, my failures that hold me to God....it is him himself. And while people may think that I then believe I am free to 'rest' in that and behave as I choose, I assure you that I do not think that way. The new heart God has given me won't let me. In fact it's quite the opposite. Knowing that God has 'got' me, regardless of my many failures, frees me up to follow him and do good works out of nothing but joy in my Lord. I need not fear that such things must be done to 'stop me from falling'.
 

musterion

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Dodo_David said:
I submitted a report about the cartoon through the regular process.
I do not yet have permission to use the editing tools that senior moderators have.
Thanks. ;)

veteran said:
So those who disagree with man's OSAS doctrines are to be moderated? That figures, goes with the "cartooning" of those on the doctrine that don't like what Scripture reveals against it. Maybe the choice of moderators here should be more moderated.
Wrong. In so many ways.

Rach said:
I have not had time to read all posts on this thread...so forgive me if I'm regurgitating stuff again....

But I wonder.....have any of you considered that the reason so many Christians believe is OSAS is because of the very nature of our God?
We know our God to be all powerful. We know that He does whatever he wills...and that whatever he wills, comes to be. His purposes are never...ever, thwarted.

Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases. (Psalm 115:3)

“I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. (Job 42:2)

Now...we also know that Salvation is not of ourselves. It is from God in it's entirety. We do not seek him, He calls us. He gives us the gift of grace and Justification. We do not hold on to salvation by works (although we do good works out of our salvation), otherwise it would not be a free gift.

“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God. (Romans 3:10-11)

For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. (Romans 3:22-24)

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Ezekiel 36:26-27)


So...knowing these two things about God...his will is never thwarted; and that He chose to redeem us.....I'm wondering why we think that anything outside of God, his grace, his purpose and intent for us; can then separate us from him? It seems quite simple to me....it is not my strength, or even, conversely, my failures that hold me to God....it is him himself. And while people may think that I then believe I am free to 'rest' in that and behave as I choose, I assure you that I do not think that way. The new heart God has given me won't let me. In fact it's quite the opposite. Knowing that God has 'got' me, regardless of my many failures, frees me up to follow him and do good works out of nothing but joy in my Lord. I need not fear that such things must be done to 'stop me from falling'.
Very well said. Though I suspect we disagree on the technical reasons WHY we're eternally secure, I have been saying since I came here that anyone who believes salvation can be lost automatically believes the ultimate power in the universe is not God but two other things: the believer's human will and/or the believer's sin.

Anti-OSAS, even if just toyed with theoretically, renders the triune God powerless before the will and/or the sin of man...making it a very subtle form of idolatry.

PS

Resting in Christ absolutely precludes behaving as you choose, if by "you" you meant "the flesh."
 

veteran

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Rach said:
I have not had time to read all posts on this thread...so forgive me if I'm regurgitating stuff again....

But I wonder.....have any of you considered that the reason so many Christians believe is OSAS is because of the very nature of our God?
We know our God to be all powerful. We know that He does whatever he wills...and that whatever he wills, comes to be. His purposes are never...ever, thwarted.

Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases. (Psalm 115:3)

“I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. (Job 42:2)

Now...we also know that Salvation is not of ourselves. It is from God in it's entirety. We do not seek him, He calls us. He gives us the gift of grace and Justification. We do not hold on to salvation by works (although we do good works out of our salvation), otherwise it would not be a free gift.

“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God. (Romans 3:10-11)

For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. (Romans 3:22-24)

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Ezekiel 36:26-27)


So...knowing these two things about God...his will is never thwarted; and that He chose to redeem us.....I'm wondering why we think that anything outside of God, his grace, his purpose and intent for us; can then separate us from him? It seems quite simple to me....it is not my strength, or even, conversely, my failures that hold me to God....it is him himself. And while people may think that I then believe I am free to 'rest' in that and behave as I choose, I assure you that I do not think that way. The new heart God has given me won't let me. In fact it's quite the opposite. Knowing that God has 'got' me, regardless of my many failures, frees me up to follow him and do good works out of nothing but joy in my Lord. I need not fear that such things must be done to 'stop me from falling'.

I can easily see how those on the OSAS doctrines are so reluctant to consider all the NT Scripture warnings against falling away from Christ. It's because of a kind of black and white absolutist mentality they are taught. "Do we have Salvation or not," they might ask. When you say yes IF... they don't like it.

I personally know of some that were believers and baptized, but then renounced their faith on Jesus. It does happen, and we hope it is a rarity. But still with those, it is my belief based on Scripture about Christ's coming Milennium reign that those may be turned back to Him. That was Apostle Paul's wish also per Acts 24:14-15 in his hope that the unjust would be resurrected also. In 1 Cor.5 with the believer among the Corinthian Church that was having intercourse with his own mother, Apostle Paul pointed to the same idea of Acts 24:15, to cast that one out so that his spirit might be saved in the day of The Lord Jesus (1 Cor.5:5).

OSAS ideas impart an emotional release that can easily become a drug, so that's part of its draw also. Face it, the idea that nothing we can ever do after having believed on Christ and been baptized in His Name is a very entertaining idea that subjects the concept of future sins we may commit to the garbage heap. In reality what that does is make the believer think they have no need to stay spiritually sober and on watch as our Lord Jesus and His Apostles commanded us.

This is why what Apostle John showed us in 1 John 1 is so important (likewise with Apostle Paul in Galatians with walking by The Spirit instead of our flesh). Our Lord Jesus gave us a way to blot out future sins we may commit. It's called repentance and asking Him forgiveness, and getting back to His work He called us for, staying on the straight and narrow. That is the only... method He gave us to handle future sins to stay in His Grace. This is why Apostle Paul taught about Gentiles that had been following pagan idolatry and abominations that were now cleansed through the Blood of our Lord Jesus by their faith, and also taught to stay failthful to the end.

What OSAS does is deny that repentance method our Lord Jesus gave us once we have believed on Him and been baptized.
 

Dodo_David

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As I see it, some things will remain a mystery while we are on this side of eternity.

Who among mortals is qualified to judge whether or not some wheat has turned into chaff?

I don't have to argue with others about the mystery in order for me to carry out God's will for my own life.
 

justaname

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veteran said:
I can easily see how those on the OSAS doctrines are so reluctant to consider all the NT Scripture warnings against falling away from Christ. It's because of a kind of black and white absolutist mentality they are taught. "Do we have Salvation or not," they might ask. When you say yes IF... they don't like it.

I personally know of some that were believers and baptized, but then renounced their faith on Jesus. It does happen, and we hope it is a rarity. But still with those, it is my belief based on Scripture about Christ's coming Milennium reign that those may be turned back to Him. That was Apostle Paul's wish also per Acts 24:14-15 in his hope that the unjust would be resurrected also. In 1 Cor.5 with the believer among the Corinthian Church that was having intercourse with his own mother, Apostle Paul pointed to the same idea of Acts 24:15, to cast that one out so that his spirit might be saved in the day of The Lord Jesus (1 Cor.5:5).

OSAS ideas impart an emotional release that can easily become a drug, so that's part of its draw also. Face it, the idea that nothing we can ever do after having believed on Christ and been baptized in His Name is a very entertaining idea that subjects the concept of future sins we may commit to the garbage heap. In reality what that does is make the believer think they have no need to stay spiritually sober and on watch as our Lord Jesus and His Apostles commanded us.

This is why what Apostle John showed us in 1 John 1 is so important (likewise with Apostle Paul in Galatians with walking by The Spirit instead of our flesh). Our Lord Jesus gave us a way to blot out future sins we may commit. It's called repentance and asking Him forgiveness, and getting back to His work He called us for, staying on the straight and narrow. That is the only... method He gave us to handle future sins to stay in His Grace. This is why Apostle Paul taught about Gentiles that had been following pagan idolatry and abominations that were now cleansed through the Blood of our Lord Jesus by their faith, and also taught to stay failthful to the end.

What OSAS does is deny that repentance method our Lord Jesus gave us once we have believed on Him and been baptized.
It is those who are against OSAS that make the straw man argument against believers repenting.
 

Prentis

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veteran said:
Anyone can pull out a single verse of Scripture and interpret it any way they want while disregarding Scripture as a whole within all of God's Word. The many Scriptures Christ's Apostles gave about the possibility of some falling away from Christ ought to be a lesson for you.
Yes! We have so many warnings... An apostle who wouldn't even judge himself, and wanted to judge nothing before it's time... Would this be heresy in the modern church? ;)

Would we not chide this apostle thus: 'surely you should know, and be confident, Christ loves you so much, nothing you can do will displease in a way that he will reject you, you are his great apostle'? But this is strangely familiar to other words contained in the Bible: 'no, surely you shall not die'.

In disbelieving the warnings, we only hurt ourselves.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, friends.

I wholly believe in "OSAS." Here's a simple way to view it:

First of all, "salvation" is the WRONG WORD. In the Scriptures, "salvation" refers to the national rescue of Isra'el by God and His Anointed when He returns to earth. The TRUE terms for a right standing with God is either being "born again" or being "justified by God."

So simply make the substitutions: OSAS is not "Once Saved Always Saved"; it's "Once Born Again, Always Born Again." Or, "Once Justified By God, Always Justified By God."

One can NEVER become "un-born," not physically and certainly not spiritually. What baby can ever say, "I'm not going to be your child anymore?" And, even if he could is there ANYTHING that's going to change his genetics?

One can NEVER become "unjustified by God" if he's been already declared "justified by God!" Who can undo what GOD has done?! It's NOT dependent upon what we do or don't do. Even repentance is an EFFECT, not a CAUSE!


Romans 8:29-39
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
KJV

That's why I can say with confidence that God WILL rescue Isra'el and, in the process, justify them as well:


Romans 11:26-29
26 And so all Israel shall be saved (rescued): as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

The children of Isra'el SHALL have their sins taken away because they are LOVED, and that because they are the children of the PATRIARCHS! God is all about FAMILY - MISHPACHAH in Hebrew!

The point of the "perseverance of the saints" is worded wrongly; it should be the "perseverance of God FOR His saints!"

Look. To those who think that justification comes from repentance, repentance is the OUTWARD evidence of the inward transformation. Without the inward transformation, NO amount of outward working would qualify one for God's kingdom, because "even our RIGHTEOUS deeds are as FILTHY RAGS (in His sight)!"


Isaiah 64:6-9
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
8 But now, O Lord , thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
9 Be not wroth very sore, O Lord , neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.
KJV

How can ANYTHING we do make a difference to a THRICE-HOLY GOD?! What was the publican saying in Yeshua`s account of the Parush (Pharisee) and the publican?


Luke 18:10-14
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
KJV

It is a good idea to go back to Galatians and read Paul's words to that congregation:


Galatians 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect (mature) by the flesh?
KJV

We cannot please God or appease Him without His own help!
When we come to the place where we realize that we cannot please Him or appease Him, we come humbly to His presence and ask for HIS intervention.
When HE intervenes, He forgives our sins, past, present, and FUTURE, because if He hasn't forgiven us for ALL our sins, then He hasn't forgiven us for ANY of our sins! He is a HOLY GOD! He declares the end from the beginning! Even our FUTURE sins are known to Him! Think about it: When Yeshua` (Jesus) died on the cross in our place, how many of our sins were in the future? When our fates were decided before the world began, how many of our sins were in the future? ALL OF THEM!


Titus 1:1-4
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope (confidence) of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
KJV

Being cleanly forgiven and justified by God (in SPITE of our sins), He gives us the down-payment of eternal life, the Ruach haQodesh, the Holy Spirit.
Then, it is the SPIRIT who works in us and through us to do God's Will! Thus, any righteous deeds that we do are the OUTWARD FLOW of the inward transformation!


Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV


Romans 8:1-10
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit (do mind) the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
KJV

Thus, we do not repent (change our actions 180 degrees) to get right with God; we repent BECAUSE we are MADE right with God (justified)! It's the INDICATOR of God's true work in us through His Spirit! It's a transformation that GOD performs, and we have no power to affect the transformation positively at all! Therefore, it is also a transformation that we have no power to affect the transformation negatively, either! "It is GOD that justifieth!"


2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he (God the Father) hath made him (Yeshua`) to be sin for us, who (Yeshua`) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (Yeshua`).
KJV

Therefore, take heart! Rejoice! For ...


Philippians 1:3-6
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he (God) which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
KJV
 

Rach1370

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veteran said:
I can easily see how those on the OSAS doctrines are so reluctant to consider all the NT Scripture warnings against falling away from Christ. It's because of a kind of black and white absolutist mentality they are taught. "Do we have Salvation or not," they might ask. When you say yes IF... they don't like it.

I personally know of some that were believers and baptized, but then renounced their faith on Jesus. It does happen, and we hope it is a rarity. But still with those, it is my belief based on Scripture about Christ's coming Milennium reign that those may be turned back to Him. That was Apostle Paul's wish also per Acts 24:14-15 in his hope that the unjust would be resurrected also. In 1 Cor.5 with the believer among the Corinthian Church that was having intercourse with his own mother, Apostle Paul pointed to the same idea of Acts 24:15, to cast that one out so that his spirit might be saved in the day of The Lord Jesus (1 Cor.5:5).

OSAS ideas impart an emotional release that can easily become a drug, so that's part of its draw also. Face it, the idea that nothing we can ever do after having believed on Christ and been baptized in His Name is a very entertaining idea that subjects the concept of future sins we may commit to the garbage heap. In reality what that does is make the believer think they have no need to stay spiritually sober and on watch as our Lord Jesus and His Apostles commanded us.

This is why what Apostle John showed us in 1 John 1 is so important (likewise with Apostle Paul in Galatians with walking by The Spirit instead of our flesh). Our Lord Jesus gave us a way to blot out future sins we may commit. It's called repentance and asking Him forgiveness, and getting back to His work He called us for, staying on the straight and narrow. That is the only... method He gave us to handle future sins to stay in His Grace. This is why Apostle Paul taught about Gentiles that had been following pagan idolatry and abominations that were now cleansed through the Blood of our Lord Jesus by their faith, and also taught to stay failthful to the end.

What OSAS does is deny that repentance method our Lord Jesus gave us once we have believed on Him and been baptized.

Ok....here is one problem I have with what you guys are saying. It seems to me that you are saying that we must place the "warning" passages over the passages that speak of assurance (and they do exist).

But I have trouble accepting such arguements. It's not biblically sound to dismiss such strong verses on the basis of other verses. Because that's what you're asking us to do. Ignore when scripture says we CAN know.

Before I even entertain the possibility that I could loose my salvation, I'll be wanting a way to harmonize both passages. Passages such as:

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30, ESV)

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:30, ESV)

Note how it all flows from God? He predestined us...He chose to awake our hearts (which, as we know, is necesary, because on our own we do not seek or find God - Rom 3:10-11) to faith and in that faith Justify us...and those of us he justified, he also glorified. We know, from other passages, that our 'glorification' will come once we die and recieve our glorified bodies. But this passage speaks as if it's such a done deal, it's already come about...not "he will also glorify"....but "he also glorified".

Or what about the passage just below that one?

Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:33-39, ESV)

I mean...come on! It just said that NOTHING....and it pretty much covers everything....can shake us or take us away from Jesus.

You say that the parable of the sower shows that "tribulation or persecution" or "the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches" proves that people who were saved can indeed fall away. But I question that. And I have to question that on so many levels...but frankly on rational ones most. Because if nothing else, the verses above tell us that these things clearly are not enough to part a true believer from Christ. So either the parable of the sower has another meaning we can glean from it, or the bible clearly contradicts itself. I refuse to entertain the notion that contradictions exist in scripture, so...clearly and rationally, another meaning it is. And it's not like I have to dig all that hard to 'come up' with something that harmonizes. All I need to do is use my eyes.

Have you not ever come across people who outwardly both live and love living the life of a 'christian'? Have you never seen a young woman or man who claim to love Jesus; who are so involved in the 'youth' scene...they sing in the band and have a WWJD sticker on their car. They know all the 'right talk'...but then suddenly 'fall in love' with someone, and before you know it they're living with that person and never darken the church door again. Or what about the couple who you swore were the very backbone of the Church. The man was the youth leader for as long as you can remember, and the wife leads sunday school and is always the first in the door with a dish for community lunches. Then you find that she's been an alcholic forever and he's had about 10 affairs, and once its all out in the open, the marriage fractures, and the next thing you know it's the Churches fault for not supporting them at all, and you never see them again...unless it's because you suddenly hear of one of them joining the SDAists.....

Let me put it in another way...one that you might understand.... After years of trying to loose weight (or, for you guys, make it rich), you hear of this new 'method'. You go to the meeting, and man...you just want it to be your lottery ticket. You want to believe it will work so bad....so you sit, and you listen....and it sounds GREAT! Look at all the people that it's worked for...and it makes so much sense...how can it NOT work??!! You leave on cloud nine, clutching your new diet (or 10 steps to wealth....or bible) in your hands, determined to win. You'll be diligent...you'll go to weight loss (or investment meetings....or church) to keep you motivated. You'll emerse yourself in the culture...because you've just seen that if you do that....it works!
So you do....and for the next week....month...year....you go, and it's good. You feel included, you feel like you're sharing with others who are the same, who know you. But slowly....slowly it dawns on you that something is missing. It's not quite 'working' like it should...you're friends seem so much happier, so much more sucessful than you...and man, it's just so hard to keep going when life hands you nothing but garbage. Maybe if you just try harder? But no....after throwing youself at it, you come to the conclusion (either through a slow realisation or a crash and burn scenario) that while you 'believe' in the method (clearly it had worked for some), you don't believe it will work for you. Your life is different, your situation not compatible, and it's just too hard to keep going...it's not worth the cost.

Can you relate? You should be able to in some manner. Because it's human nature to do just that....how many people have you known to rave about something...but then give it up.
Such is, I believe, the parable of the sower. How many people want to believe in Jesus, in everlasting life in heaven...and then strive to fit into the culture or to 'suceed at being saved'? We see it all too often, and that's exactly what the parable of the sower it reiterating. We can't do it ourselves, it doesn't matter how much we try, or how desperately we want it to work...if we have 'bad soil', life will wear us down and out. It's only for those who are called, who have God reach inside and give a new heart, a new birth, a firtile 'soil' that will recieve the glorification in the end.

It is not hard to 'harmonize' such 'warning' passages in such a way, especially when we combine it with understandings from Paul....his constant warnings that there are those in the churches who decieve, and are out for there own gains...and of those who are 'with us, but not one of us'.

So unless, and until, I see a convincingly rational and biblical arguement that harmonizes both 'warning' and 'assurance' passages, I will go on believing as I do...that God holds me and in that I may have perfect assurance.


Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. (Hebrews 10:19-23, ESV)
 

musterion

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I've been having this...um..."discussion" for over 10 years now and the more I have it, four things become ever clearer to me:

(1) people who oppose OS-AS (or whatever you call it, I prefer UESIC, Unconditional Eternal Security In Christ) not only disagree with it, they truly HATE and LOATHE it. I have personally seen many otherwise sweet-natured professing Christians become LOUD, MEAN and STEAMING MAD when the subject is even brought up. Perhaps there are exceptions to this but, in person, I have never met one and I've talked to many. Why do they do this? Because they believe OSAS is an affront or insult to God? No - even if you disagree with it, it is impossible to frame it that way. So exactly why are they so full of hatred on this?

(2) I am convinced the main reason for it is the blessed peace those who accept their place in Christ tend to possess. We can't hide it. Anti-OSAS folks, though, are very insecure - who couldn't be if you believed there was even a 1 in 1,000 chance that you might lose your salvation and end up in Hell? Because they're so insecure and so untrusting of Christ's completed work on their behalf, they will go out of their way to ensure no one else fully trusts Him, no matter WHAT Bible passages are crystal clear on the matter of eternal assurance. We've seen that here...for them, warnings (no matter who beside the Body of Christ they were directed to) trump promises of security. Again, perhaps there are exceptions to this but I've not met one yet. So exactly why are they so insecure?

(3) This observation was made long before any of us was born and stands firm today: show me someone who believes a person can be saved but then sin away or just walk away from their justification, and I'll show you someone who believes a gospel that DEMANDS the very "works of righteousness" which the true Gospel of grace precludes. THAT'S why they're so insecure: they can't stand the thought that others rest in Christ while they must work to remain in Him.

(4) For that reason, in conversations with you every OSAS opponent will graciously allow you to believe on Christ for your initial justification of past sins - many right here on this board have said exactly that - but NO FURTHER. They will castigate you as a heretic and a fool if you dare trust Him for the forgiveness of ALL sins, as the apostle Paul said in Romans 8:1 and Colossians 2:13 (to which verse, despite posting it in multiple threads, I have yet to receive even ONE reply from any OSAS hater here...I'm waiting, boys).