The Doctrine of OSAS

[justaname]

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Was this bunch ever going to be saved in God's eyes?

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Here is an interesting group...they had "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"...but then they were "again entangled therein and overcome."
Not good! Because "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning".

 

[Barrd]

We've posted passages, but you do not believe it seems. That's why they call it believing Butch. He that believes has eternal life.

That passage does not say that it is impossible to fall from grace.
As Butch says, you are inferring that from that passage.

And as I have told you, time and time again....you must take the whole Bible into consideration...not a handful of verses taken out of context.

 

[ATP]

We are sealed until redemption. Eph 4:30 NIV. Amen.

 

[Barrd]

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Was this bunch ever going to be saved in God's eyes?

Looks an awful lot as if it were past tense:

after they have escaped the pollutions

 

[ATP]

Jesus died for all sins, past present and future. Amen. Wow...

John 1:29 NIV, Acts 10:43 NIV, Acts 13:38-39 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:3 NIV, 2 Cor 5:14-15 NIV, Gal 1:3-4 NIV, Gal 2:19-20 NIV, Col 1:13-14 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 8:12 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV, 1 John 2:2 NIV, 1 John 2:12 NIV, 1 John 4:10 NIV, 1 John 4:14 NIV, Rev 1:5-6 NIV

 

[ATP]

2 Peter 2:1 False teachers

 

[ATP]

False teachers will try to err God's grace.

 

[justaname]

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

I like this...

Elsewhere in the New Testament we are told that the Lord will “guard” (phylassō) those who are his, ensuring that they will not fall away irretrievably (2 Thess 3:3; Jude 24). Such promises, however, should never cancel out the injunction to watch ourselves so that we do not apostatize. And this latter thought is precisely what Peter relayed here. He desired his readers to be on guard “so that you may not … fall from your secure position.” The word “fall” (ekpesēte) refers to apostasy (cf. Rom 11:11, 22; 14:4; 1 Cor 10:12; Heb 4:11; Rev 2:5), to departing from the Christian faith. Peter had clarified in the entire letter that those who fall away, like the teachers, are destined for eternal destruction. Believers maintain their secure position, in other words, by heeding warnings, not by ignoring them. Experienced mountain climbers ensure their safety by studying their climb, taking necessary precautions, and knowing their climbing partners. Paying attention to warnings does not quench confidence but is the means to it. So also Peter was not putting a damper on the assurance of his readers. He knew that assurance becomes a reality by heeding warnings. Those who are on their guard will not fall from their secure position, while those who are careless are apt to slip away because they ignored warning signals. We should add here that any who finally do turn aside and fall away reveal that they were never part of the people of God (1 Cor 11:19; 1 John 2:19). But Peter’s purpose in a warning was not to handle that question. The warning is prophylactic and prospective, not a restrospective analysis of those who have departed.

(emphasis added)
New American Commentary

 

[Butch5]

I have clearly supported my position...yet you still use your dodging tactics and now ask what does this verse have to do with modern times...

WOW!

You gave me the opinions of three commentaries. How is that evidence of what Paul said? Yes, I asked you what does what Paul said to the Christians at Philipi have to do with modern Christians. Paul said to the Chrsitians in the Church at Philipi that he was confident that God would continue the good work that He had started in them, What does have to do with a Christian today. Paul didn't say God started a good work in every person that would ever believe throughout all time. This is why context is so important. We can't just go through the Scriptures randomly taking passages out of context and apply them wherever we want to. That's how we get doctrines like OSAS.

 

[Butch5]

We've posted passages, but you do not believe it seems. That's why they call it believing Butch. He that believes has eternal life.

You've posted passages but none say that salvation can't be lost. As I pointed out the idea is inferred yet you've not explained how you've drawn that inference. we can go through those passages one at a time if your willing to explain how you've drawn the inference.

 

[justaname]

You gave me the opinions of three commentaries. How is that evidence of what Paul said? Yes, I asked you what does what Paul said to the Christians at Philipi have to do with modern Christians. Paul said to the Chrsitians in the Church at Philipi that he was confident that God would continue the good work that He had started in them, What does have to do with a Christian today. Paul didn't say God started a good work in every person that would ever believe throughout all time. This is why context is so important. We can't just go through the Scriptures randomly taking passages out of context and apply them wherever we want to. That's how we get doctrines like OSAS.

And you gave me nothing...

Again you are simply purporting...

 

[Butch5]

There are far too many verses in the Bible that very clearly state that a person can fall from grace.
Why would Jesus spend so much time teaching us how to live a righteous life?
Why does He warn us to fear the One Who can destroy body and soul in hell?

OSAS is Satan's most ingenuous lie ever...

The straw man is created to deal with those passages. As I said, the arguments are either passage out of context or fallacious.

 

[ATP]

You've posted passages but none say that salvation can't be lost. As I pointed out the idea is inferred yet you've not explained how you've drawn that inference. we can go through those passages one at a time if your willing to explain how you've drawn the inference.

Well, if the word believe and eternal life are in the same sentence then what is your conclusion brother.

 

[Butch5]

And you gave me nothing...

Again you are simply purporting...

Not at all. I asked a logical question. The verse you quoted was written to a Church about something God had done in that church about 2000 years ago. What does that have to do with a Christian today. If I quoted this from an American history book would you apply it to Americans today? George Washington said the American soldiers only have muskets. If you read that would assume that 21st century American soldiers only have musket to battle with? I seriously doubt you would assume that 21st century American soldiers only have muskets just because Washington's statement is about American soldiers. Yet it seems that's exactly what you're doing with this passage in Philippians 1. How is that logical?

 

[justaname]

You've posted passages but none say that salvation can't be lost. As I pointed out the idea is inferred yet you've not explained how you've drawn that inference. we can go through those passages one at a time if your willing to explain how you've drawn the inference.

4 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

I can start here...

This says the believer "has" eternal life...does not come into judgement...has passed out of death into life.

Plain language here...my inference

Belief results in eternal life and averts judgement.

The one who hears and believes in this way has eternal life and will not be condemned (krinō, here meaning ‘judged adversely’, as in 3:18). The idea is virtually indistinguishable from the negative component of Paul’s doctrine of justification: the believer does not come to the final judgment, but leaves the court already acquitted. Nor is it necessary for the believer to wait until the last day to experience something of resurrection life: the believer has eternal life and has crossed over from death to life (cf. Col. 1:13).

The Pillar New Testament Commentary

 

[Butch5]

Well, if the word believe and eternal life are in the same sentence then what is your conclusion brother.

It depends on what the sentence says. However, just because the words are in the same sentence doesn't mean salvation can't be lost. Besides you keep going back to the believer. Who is saying the believer will be lost? Not me. As I've said its the believer who rejects Christ.

 

[ATP]

I'm not sure how this is relevant.

Only the blood of Jesus keeps you until redemption. How is this relevant to OSAS. Is this what you're asking?

This is speaking of one who believes in Jesus. I don't think anyone said a believer will be lost. It's the one who stop believing/trusting.

But justification only comes once Butch. How is possible to stop believing.

 

[justaname]

Not at all. I asked a logical question. The verse you quoted was written to a Church about something God had done in that church about 2000 years ago. What does that have to do with a Christian today. If I quoted this from an American history book would you apply it to Americans today? George Washington said the American soldiers only have muskets. If you read that would assume that 21st century American soldiers only have musket to battle with? I seriously doubt you would assume that 21st century American soldiers only have muskets just because Washington's statement is about American soldiers. Yet it seems that's exactly what you're doing with this passage in Philippians 1. How is that logical?

More nothing...

Simply continuing the attempt to change the subject. Rabbit trails...

 

[ATP]

However, just because the words are in the same sentence doesn't mean salvation can't be lost.

Well, no. It is precisely because they are in the same sentence that salvation can't be lost. Eternal life = forever.

Scripture tells me that after I believe not only do I have eternal life, but I am also sealed until redemption and only justified once.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[Butch5]

4 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

I can start here...

This says the believer "has" eternal life...does not come into judgement...has passed out of death into life.

Plain language here...my inference

Belief results in eternal life and averts judgement.

The one who hears and believes in this way has eternal life and will not be condemned (krinō, here meaning ‘judged adversely’, as in 3:18). The idea is virtually indistinguishable from the negative component of Paul’s doctrine of justification: the believer does not come to the final judgment, but leaves the court already acquitted. Nor is it necessary for the believer to wait until the last day to experience something of resurrection life: the believer has eternal life and has crossed over from death to life (cf. Col. 1:13).

The Pillar New Testament Commentary

I agree, however, that's not the issue. The issue is the one who stops believing/trusting. In this passage believes is a present tense participle. It literally translates "is believing." Here is Young's Literal Translation.

YLT John 5:24 'Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life. (Jn. 5:24 YLT)

Jesus' words pertain to the one who "is hearing" and "is believing". There is nothing here promised for the one who "used" to believe. So, yes the one who "Is believing" has eternal life, however, that says nothing about the person who stops believing.