The Doctrine of OSAS

[Barrd]

Can any OSASer explain this passage?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[justaname]

As long as I walk with God, yes, I am protected.
As long as I remain in Jesus, yes, He intercedes on my behalf.
Yes, Jesus died for my sins...and if I will confess my sin, He is righteous and just to forgive my sin. But if I think that "eternal security" means that I may willfully sin, and hey...I'm covered...then there is a problem.
Can I thwart God's plan of salvation? That's a loaded question. God's plan is for me to follow His Son, Whom He sent. If I begin to follow, but then turn back, have I "thwarted God's plan"? No...but unless I repent and return, then I am lost....

I simply want to point something out here...

Do you notice in all of these you feel you must maintain control here?

You answer if I walk
if I remain
if I confess

Where is you confidence? Surely not in God's ability, rather in your own...

 

[Butch5]

Only the blood of Jesus keeps you until redemption. How is this relevant to OSAS. Is this what you're asking?


But justification only comes once Butch. How is possible to stop believing.

Where do you find that first statement in Scripture?

How can one stop believing? There are lots of ways, the bottom line is they turn away from Christ.

 

[Barrd]

Or these:
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

 

[Butch5]

Well, no. It is precisely because they are in the same sentence that salvation can't be lost. Eternal life = forever.

Scripture tells me that after I believe not only do I have eternal life, but I am also sealed until redemption and only justified once.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

And that none of them can be lost is assumed. Yes, the believer is sealed until the day of redemption. However, the one who used to believe is not. You keep talking about the believer, that is a straw man. If you want to prove OSAS you have to prove that a person cannot turn away. Yet, we have clear instances of that in the Scriptures.

 

[justaname]

I agree, however, that's not the issue. The issue is the one who stops believing/trusting. In this passage believes is a present tense participle. It literally translates "is believing." Here is Young's Literal Translation.

YLT John 5:24 'Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life. (Jn. 5:24 YLT)

Jesus' words pertain to the one who "is hearing" and "is believing". There is nothing here promised for the one who "used" to believe. So, yes the one who "Is believing" has eternal life, however, that says nothing about the person who stops believing.

Can any OSASer explain this passage?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Or these:
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

We should add here that any who finally do turn aside and fall away reveal that they were never part of the people of God (1 Cor 11:19; 1 John 2:19).

Perhaps it is not the doctrine that is skewed, rather your view of it or your interpretation of it...

 

[Butch5]

More nothing...

Simply continuing the attempt to change the subject. Rabbit trails...

You can reject it. However it is a logical question. I don't see how you can claim something that was said to have been done by God in one specific church 2000 years ago. It's all about context.

 

[ATP]

I agree, however, that's not the issue. The issue is the one who stops believing/trusting. In this passage believes is a present tense participle. It literally translates "is believing." Here is Young's Literal Translation.

YLT John 5:24 'Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life. (Jn. 5:24 YLT)

Jesus' words pertain to the one who "is hearing" and "is believing". There is nothing here promised for the one who "used" to believe. So, yet the one who "Is believing has eternal life, however, that says nothing about the person who stops believing.

You are adding "the one who stops believing" into scripture. There is not one scripture that says a believer can stop believing.

Can any OSASer explain this passage?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Read verse 7 and 8 for me. What do they say Barrd. These passages all go back to the Crop / Farmer / Root / Seed / Soil / Thorns and Thistles / Unbelief / Vine. Unbelieving jews who had no root of salvation...

THE WORD "PARTAKERS" - Partakers is not referring to believers. None of the terms used below here are used anywhere else in Scripture to refer to salvation. Nor are any of the normal New Testament terms and synonyms for salvation used in this passage. Nowhere is it stated that these people have been justified, sanctified, born again, regenerated, or saved. No mention is made of faith or of eternal life. Verse 6 does not say that these people cannot be renewed to salvation, but that they cannot be renewed to repentance.

1. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened
2. who have tasted the heavenly gift
3. who have shared in the Holy Spirit
4. who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
5. and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

Notice the term "fallen away" here. This passage is speaking to non-believing Jews specifically in Israel, being that Hebrews is a JEWISH book. Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation! It all goes back to the verses you are ignoring, verses 7-8..

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Heb 6:4-8 NIV It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

 

[Butch5]

We should add here that any who finally do turn aside and fall away reveal that they were never part of the people of God (1 Cor 11:19; 1 John 2:19).

Perhaps it is not the doctrine that is skewed, rather your view of it or your interpretation of it...

Your statement is a logical fallacy. A person cannot turn from where they never were. It's not possible to fall away from where one has never been. Jesus Himself said that some believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[Barrd]

I simply want to point something out here...

Do you notice in all of these you feel you must maintain control here?

You answer if I walk
if I remain
if I confess

Where is you confidence? Surely not in God's ability, rather in your own...

Have you not heard that Christianity is a relationship?

 

[ATP]

Where do you find that first statement in Scripture?

How can one stop believing? There are lots of ways, the bottom line is they turn away from Christ.

Where is your scripture to prove this??

Or these:
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

You're basing your proof off an allegory. Lord help us.

And that none of them can be lost is assumed. Yes, the believer is sealed until the day of redemption. However, the one who used to believe is not. You keep talking about the believer, that is a straw man. If you want to prove OSAS you have to prove that a person cannot turn away. Yet, we have clear instances of that in the Scriptures.

No, there is no "however". You're adding to scripture Butch.

 

[Butch5]

You are adding "the one who stops believing" into scripture.


Read verse 7 and 8 for me. What do they say Barrd. These passages all go back to the Crop / Farmer / Root / Seed / Soil / Thorns and Thistles / Unbelief / Vine. Unbelieving jews who had no root of salvation...

THE WORD "PARTAKERS" - Partakers is not referring to believers. None of the terms used below here are used anywhere else in Scripture to refer to salvation. Nor are any of the normal New Testament terms and synonyms for salvation used in this passage. Nowhere is it stated that these people have been justified, sanctified, born again, regenerated, or saved. No mention is made of faith or of eternal life. Verse 6 does not say that these people cannot be renewed to salvation, but that they cannot be renewed to repentance.

1. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened
2. who have tasted the heavenly gift
3. who have shared in the Holy Spirit
4. who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
5. and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

Notice the term "fallen away" here. This passage is speaking to non-believing Jews specifically in Israel, being that Hebrews is a JEWISH book. Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation! It all goes back to the verses you are ignoring, verses 7-8..

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Heb 6:4-8 NIV It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Sure there is.

15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (Heb. 3:15-19 NKJ)

They were God's people and they hardened their heart which Paul concludes as unbelief.

 

[ATP]

Have you not heard that Christianity is a relationship?

and yet you depend on your works to keep you out of hell? The irony, oh my..............

 

[justaname]

You can reject it. However it is a logical question. I don't see how you can claim something that was said to have been done by God in one specific church 2000 years ago. It's all about context.

You do realize 100% of the Bible was written to a specific audience....your same logic can be applied to any passage

 

[justaname]

Have you not heard that Christianity is a relationship?

Yes and in that relationship we are to trust God, not our own abilities. Adam broke that trust in the garden, we are to now believe His Word.

 

[ATP]

Sure there is.

15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (Heb. 3:15-19 NKJ)

They were God's people and they hardened their heart which Paul concludes as unbelief.

They were unbelieving Jews brother. What does "enter His rest" mean here? There's that word believe again....

Heb 4:1-3 ESV Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[justaname]

Your statement is a logical fallacy. A person cannot turn from where they never were. It's not possible to fall away from where one has never been. Jesus Himself said that some believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

The falling away is from the fellowship of Christian Believers, not from salvation...

Oh and the parable of the four soils...

How many of the soils are saved?

 

[Butch5]

Where is your scripture to prove this??


You're basing your proof off an allegory. Lord help us.


No, there is no "however". You're adding to scripture Butch.

I've not added anything. if you've concluded that a person can't stop believing you'll need to prove that from Scripture. The logical thing is that I can stop believing anything I want to. If you're gonna claim that this one subject is beyond that you'll need to prove it.

However, as I said in the PM's this is getting ridiculous and is why I usually don't get into these debates. You guys haven't attempted an argument you've simply hurled passages from which you've inferred the doctrine. That's not a logical argument. It seems it just pages of tossing passages back and forth. That gets nowhere. If your doctrine was in the Scriptures you would be able to make a logical argument for it as we saw in the discussion about what happens when people die. That doctrine is in the Scriptures and can be laid out and shown.

 

[ATP]

The falling away is from the fellowship of Christian Believers, not from salvation...

Oh and the parable of the four soils...

How many of the soils are saved?

Yup, fellowship and relationship, not the same. We can lose fellowship but not relationship.

 

[justaname]

I guess this is the question...

Does God know who is going to be saved?
Is God attempting to save those He knows will not be saved?