The Doctrine of OSAS

[ATP]

Yes...there are people who truly do believe that a saved believer can indulge in these kind of vile and horrible sins...even for years...because they have "eternal security". That alone makes it a very dangerous doctrine.

I see you have learned nothing from our discussion. We don't believe in continuing to sin. Satan has put that in your mind. Who is Satan Barrd?

John 8:44 NIV You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[ATP]

So, OSASers....have any of you ever heard of a man named George Sodini?

This damnable doctrine of devils has a lot to answer for in the case of George Sodini,The man who opened fire in a Pittsburgh area gym, killing three and injuring nine others before apparently turning a gun on himself.

Honorable mention:

Tetelestai Church in Pittsburgh, PA – “Be Ye Holy, even as I have been Ye holy! Thus saith the lord thy God!”, as pastor Rick Knapp would proclaim. Holy shit, religion is a waste. But this guy teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him. Call him at (724) 325-2655. If no answer there, he should still live at 439 9th Street, Oakmont, PA 15139. In any case, guilt and fear kept me there 13 long years until Nov 2006. I think his crap did the most damage. Their web site: http://www.tetelestai.org.

http://nypost.com/2009/08/05/full-text-of-gym-killers-blog/

Can you believe that the church that was responsible actually still has a website up?

Stick with scripture Barrd.

 

[justaname]

That was actually more the answer that I expected. However, it is not outside of the realm of possibility that a man might succumb to a temptation you and I shudder at, especially in the realm of sex.
No, I don't expect a heart that has surrendered to Jesus to indulge in such behavior...but the question had to be asked, so that the answer could be given.
I want you, especially, and others like you, to see and understand just what the OSAS doctrine can and does lead to. Yes...there are people who truly do believe that a saved believer can indulge in these kind of vile and horrible sins...even for years...because they have "eternal security". That alone makes it a very dangerous doctrine.

Here I would say it is not the doctrine itself that leads to anything, it is the sin nature that man succumbs to. Just as some might have a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ and give false teachings, some might have a misunderstanding of this doctrine and also give false teachings and come to false conclusions living a lifestyle that is contrary to Christianity.

The danger comes when the doctrine is twisted or contorted. It is then that others will attempt to justify sin.

 

[Barrd]

I see you have learned nothing from our discussion. We don't believe in continuing to sin. Satan has put that in your mind. Who is Satan Barrd?

John 8:44 NIV You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I asked the question...you answered it.
You answered similar questions in the Sabbath Keeping thread the same way.
Yes, a man may commit even the most vile of sins...and still go to heaven...that is what you told me then, and you repeated it tonight.
And you are not the only one who believes that way...

I know who Satan is, ATP.
He is the perpetrator of this lie.

 

[Barrd]

Stick with scripture Barrd.

Tell me more about Gill, ATP.
As my dear sainted Daddy would say....
"it all depends on whose ox is being gored."

 

[Barrd]

Here I would say it is not the doctrine itself that leads to anything, it is the sin nature that man succumbs to. Just as some might have a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ and give false teachings, some might have a misunderstanding of this doctrine and also give false teachings and come to false conclusions living a lifestyle that is contrary to Christianity.

The danger comes when the doctrine is twisted or contorted. It is then that others will attempt to justify sin.

That, at least, is a sane, and a polite answer.
Thank you.
I do not agree...but it is a pleasure talking to someone who knows how to conduct himself in a polite conversation.

 

[ATP]

I asked the question...you answered it.
You answered similar questions in the Sabbath Keeping thread the same way.
Yes, a man may commit even the most vile of sins...and still go to heaven...that is what you told me then, and you repeated it tonight.

Yes the most vile sins. Do you believe Jesus died for ALL sins, even the most vile? Your doctrine makes no sense. If Jesus died for all sins how can one lose their salvation.



1 + 1 is not 3.

 

[Barrd]

Yes the most vile sins. Do you believe Jesus died for ALL sins, even the most vile? Your doctrine makes no sense. If Jesus died for all sins how can one lose their salvation.



1 + 1 is not 3.

That is why I say we have very different ideas about who is, and who is not, a believer.
A believer is someone who believes in Jesus Christ...not just in His existence, or even in His resurrection, but in Him...in Who He is, in the things that He taught, in the way that He lived....in everything about Him.
If you believe in Him, you cannot be ambivalent about Him. You will either love Him....or you will hate Him. There is no middle ground for those who truly know Him.

If you love Him, you will keep His commandments....He said so, and He does not lie.

You and I might have a problem figuring out who is truly His disciple and who is not, but I can tell you this with no fear at all that I might be telling you something that you can turn against me or prove me wrong....Jesus knows who is His....and He knows who is not.

Those who are truly His, He will raise up on the last day....and He will take them to that place He has prepared for them.

Those who are not will be in for a very unpleasant shock....

You may call it "works salvation" if you like....I call it a natural response to His love.
As James tells us...."faith without works is dead."

And ATP.....dead faith does not save anyone.

1+1+1=3

 

[ATP]

That is why I say we have very different ideas about who is, and who is not, a believer.

No, we just have very different ideas about who Jesus Christ is.

Good night.

 

[Barrd]

Now, Gentlemen...and you, too, ATP...
It is nearly 1 a.m. here where I live.
As much as I have enjoyed this, it is time for me to be a headin' fer my beddin'....

G'night, kids!

 

[Barrd]

No, we just have very different ideas about who Jesus Christ is.

Good night.

Here's a hint for you, ,ATP:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Sleep well, guys!!

 

[Butch5]

To continue...

Is God attempting to save those He knows will not be saved?

No. Only those who are saved by God obtain any form of salvation. Salvation is not something to be had and then lost. Those who profess belief and then apostate never posses salvation to begin with because God never gave growth to their faith.

Then to the question Barrd is asking...

Can you sin your way out of salvation?
My initial response is Christian believers walk in the Spirit avoiding sin. Your hypothetical scenarios of molestation, rape, and murder with an unrepentant heart is uncharacteristic of a believer and does not flow with the divine nature. Thus it follows this type of fruit would bring into question the faith of the professing believer.

Yet every sin is deliberate, as when we sin we are seeking our desire to serve our selves over serving God. We miss the mark so to speak. When we sin we have a High Priest interceding on our behalf. Jesus' death atoned for the sins of humanity. Scripture reveals only the sin of blaspheme against the Holy Spirit as unpardonable.

Again the question of apostasy. Here the recanting believer was never being saved by God, nor would I say they were ever sealed by the Holy Spirit. What they fall from is fellowship of the saints, not the salvation of God.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Upon belief we are sealed with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit. We do not come into judgement and receive eternal life. We pass from death into life. We are no longer under wrath and we become children of God.

Speculation isn't proof. From the statements you've made here you cannot even know if you are saved now. Most Christians live a fair amount of time during which they experience trials and tribulation. There is no way you or anyone else can say that a person who says they believe today, doesn't actually believe today, simple because they may turn away 10 years from now. That argument doesn't work.

 

[justaname]

Speculation isn't proof. From the statements you've made here you cannot even know if you are saved now. Most Christians live a fair amount of time during which they experience trials and tribulation. There is no way you or anyone else can say that a person who says they believe today, doesn't actually believe today, simple because they may turn away 10 years from now. That argument doesn't work.

Perhaps a big "S" tattooed on the back by God for those being saved would be better proof for you?

Well until He decides to do that, we do have the scriptures...

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

It seems you are asking the doctrine to do something it is not meant to do...tell you who is being saved.

 

[ATP]

Speculation isn't proof. From the statements you've made here you cannot even know if you are saved now. Most Christians live a fair amount of time during which they experience trials and tribulation. There is no way you or anyone else can say that a person who says they believe today, doesn't actually believe today, simple because they may turn away 10 years from now. That argument doesn't work.

How can a believer turn away 10 years from now, or even 50 years. The truth is in us forever. Scripture says we are firm and secure in Him.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

Heb 6:16-19 NIV Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,

 

[Barrd]

Perhaps a big "S" tattooed on the back by God for those being saved would be better proof for you?

Well until He decides to do that, we do have the scriptures...

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

It seems you are asking the doctrine to do something it is not meant to do...tell you who is being saved.

Don't you think that there is some response to God's love for us?
What is the hallmark of a Christian, according to Jesus Christ (Who ought to know).

 

[Barrd]

Now, understand, I have nothing against Paul...in fact, it is my opinion that he has been woefully misunderstood on a couple of issues for millenia.
But I do have to ask...why do OSASers seem to spend a whole lot of time in Paul's epistles....and so little time at the feet of Christ?
Paul didn't die for you, Paul cannot save you....Paul says that even he struggles with temptation.

Why do you think Jesus spent three years teaching us how to walk with Him?
Why did He tell His apostles to go make disciples, and teach them all that Jesus had taught?
Why should we learn these things, if He doesn't expect us to do them?

Even Paul says that we are to be doers of the law, and not hearers only.

And why does James go to such great lengths to tell us that faith without works is dead?

Or why does Peter talk about a pig who has been washed going back to wallow in the mire?

No, kids....there are far to many places where we are told that we are to produce fruits meet for repentance...

 

[justaname]

Don't you think that there is some response to God's love for us?
What is the hallmark of a Christian, according to Jesus Christ (Who ought to know).

35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

 

[justaname]

Now, understand, I have nothing against Paul...in fact, it is my opinion that he has been woefully misunderstood on a couple of issues for millenia.
But I do have to ask...why do OSASers seem to spend a whole lot of time in Paul's epistles....and so little time at the feet of Christ?
Paul didn't die for you, Paul cannot save you....Paul says that even he struggles with temptation.

Why do you think Jesus spent three years teaching us how to walk with Him?
Why did He tell His apostles to go make disciples, and teach them all that Jesus had taught?
Why should we learn these things, if He doesn't expect us to do them?

Even Paul says that we are to be doers of the law, and not hearers only.

And why does James go to such great lengths to tell us that faith without works is dead?

Or why does Peter talk about a pig who has been washed going back to wallow in the mire?

No, kids....there are far to many places where we are told that we are to produce fruits meet for repentance...

This is a hollow argument...it is the whole cannon of Scripture that is studied.

This is like saying Why do so many Armenians spend so much time only reading the negative passages. No Armenian even believes anything positive the Bible says.

 

[Barrd]

35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Those are my favorite verses in the entire Bible, Justaname.
If more OSASers would show that love, I might be more impressed.

Why is it that so many seem to be so arrogant? Is it because they are so sure of their salvation that they don't think they need to consider anyone else's feelings?
If this is the fruit OSAS produces, I don't want it.

 

[Barrd]

This is a hollow argument...it is the whole cannon of Scripture that is studied.

This is like saying Why do so many Armenians spend so much time only reading the negative passages. No Armenian even believes anything positive the Bible says.

Yes, the WHOLE canon of Scripture. All of it. Every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
BOTH the "Blessed Assurance" verses...all wonderful, glorious verses, no doubt...
And also what you call the "negative passages".
You may not like them, but they are in there.
Now, I'm not exactly sure what an "Armenian" is....as I told ATP (and he hasn't gotten over it yet), I was just a little girl of 12 the first time I read the Bible through, cover to cover. (Okay, so I skipped through Leviticus, Numbers, and Dueteronomy...those three still bore me to this day). Jesus became my Hero...I became a devoted Christian at the age of 12. At that time, I had never heard the term "doctrine", and I probably wouldn't have been interested if I had. I didn't know about "exigesis" nor had I ever heard of any "church fathers". The only thing that was important to me was the story.
Nothing else mattered.

I will not say I've been perfect ever since...i wouldn't even believe me if I were to say such a thing. But I have read that Bible from cover to cover many, many, many times since those early days.
I am now about to turn 65.
IOW, I've been a Christian for over 50 years.
And I still come to Jesus with the open and trusting heart of that long ago little girl...