The Doctrine of OSAS

[justaname]

Very nice post, Justaname . I like your reply concerning context. Context is overlooked quite often as the first place to look in order to determine an author's meaning or intent. Context is especially crucial in regards to understanding Heb.10:26. I am disappointed at how many refuse to consider the last verse in that chapter. As far as Heb.6:1-6, I will concede that it appears to be speaking of a person who has fallen away from the gift of life. However, because I see the word "if", it may well be a hypothetical situation used to explain why the foundations need not be repeated, as it insists that salvation cannot be repeated. Blessings, Howie

Hebrews 6:4-8

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Probably the strongest case in scripture that speaks to lose of salvation. I have heard of this referring to the wilderness generation. I have even presented the view here on CYB. This came from a Dr. who did his dissertation on the book of Hebrews.

Personally I liken this to this passage. This interpretation fits and continues the flow of the text within context. Also the language used fits with language used in other verses. I post this one because of it's clear opening statement.

​

A Tree and Its Fruit
15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

As you can see from here these were never being saved, in fact they were spoken of before they even started. Their end is known from the beginning. Not only do the gospels agree, but so do the epistles. This is nothing new and does not speak to lose of salvation in the believer. It does warn the would be believer to not follow these false teachings, that you can simply continue in your sin. This was evidently a problem in the early church, hence all the warnings, and is still a problem in the church today.​

​

To dissect this verse a bit...​

verse 18​

18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.​

God only saves good trees. The bad ones do not get saved. It is not that a bad tree might get saved, because it can only produce bad fruit. Neither is it God starts saving a bad tree, then deems it unworthy. God knows the entire time just exactly which trees are bad.

This coincides with...
Romans 9:18-21

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

The fact is some are made for common use. There are sheep and goats, wheat and tares. God knows who the wheat are before they are even born. God knows the end from the beginning. God knows all His sheep and He calls them by name, and they listen to His voice. God's sheep don't listen for a while, then stop listening.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

2 Peter 1:10-11

10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

This does not speak of lose of salvation, only stumbling in our walk.

And this speaks to the end result of that aspect.

Jude 24

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.


Let me again make note for all to read, I in no way advocate lawlessness. I completely agree that bad trees bear rotten fruit. I also agree that sanctification is a cooperative practice, yet God is the enabler, we are merely cooperators.

[SIZE=small]This is [/SIZE]not[SIZE=small] what the passage is saying at [/SIZE]ALL[SIZE=small]. He’s [/SIZE]not[SIZE=small] saying that [/SIZE]OUR[SIZE=small] life can’t take us away from God. He’s talking about the [/SIZE]THINGS[SIZE=small] in life.[/SIZE]

Then why is life contrasted with death? Paul could have said "things in life" like you suggest yet he didn't.

As far as Sam, can you see into the hearts and minds of men as God does?

Where is my perversion of the Jeremiah text? The text speaks for itself, you are the one adding to the text not me. Perhaps you need to look at the three fingers point back at yourself as opposed to the one you are pointing at me. Why do you bring up Calvin?

My premise is this alone. Those God intends to save, are saved as promised, none will thwart God's intentions, not even ourselves.

Let me make this simpler.


John 6:37-40
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Lets just work with this text for now. Please speak to the passage and explain it in context showing me how I have interpreted it improperly. Please do not grab another verse out of context and attempt to apply it to this verse.

This begs the question. Why should anyone worry about having or losing their salvation? Those who know Christ are assured already. Those who may not know him, aren't. In either case if you follow Peter's directive the above will not occur.

The scriptures also boldly state, that HIS SPIRIT bears witness with OUR SPIRIT, that we are the children of GOD. Jesus himself assures us that he will lose none. Now, if we follow the positive directive then none of this should matter.I tend to think it does in babes who are ignorant at first, and those who are willingly disobedient or are seeking how far they can push the grace of Christ.

Also there are cults who major on this as there's a works based belief - based upon a head knowledge of the historical Jesus and in finding many disobedient dispensationalists, they have a field day.

 

[justaname]

This begs the question. Why should anyone worry about having or losing their salvation? Those who know Christ are assured already. Those who may not know him, aren't. In either case if you follow Peter's directive the above will not occur.

The scriptures also boldly state, that HIS SPIRIT bears witness with OUR SPIRIT, that we are the children of GOD. Jesus himself assures us that he will lose none. Now, if we follow the positive directive then none of this should matter.I tend to think it does in babes who are ignorant at first, and those who are willingly disobedient or are seeking how far they can push the grace of Christ.

Also there are cults who major on this as there's a works based belief - based upon a head knowledge of the historical Jesus and in finding many disobedient dispensationalists, they have a field day.

I find this very relevant in the babes in Christ. These teachings direct to not follow the path of lawlessness...
This pretty much explains it all here.

Luke 8:11-15

11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 “Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
13 “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 “The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 “But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

I think most people have a problem with the seed that fell among the thorns and rocky soil. They see this as God saving these at first and then removing the gift of salvation, yet clearly explained by Jesus Himself, these are not saved. Yes they may have a temporary form of belief, but it is not salvific at all.

So to Peter's warning...
Do not be of the rocky soil or among the thorns and thistles. Yet those who are being saved, will be saved as promised. God knows who are His.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The fact is that those who know they are GOD's lambs fear being separated from him. One cannot enter into, or abide in, the holy place apart from the spirit of fear of YHWH. The fear exists for a good reason.

And conversely, IMO, those who are not GOD's lambs do not fear.

 

[Foreigner]

The guarantee comes from the indwelling presence of the Holy spirit. What Christ requires of us is to believe on Him (John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:50,51) for everlasting life. He who has the Son has life. Knowing He exists is not what gives us life. Does anyone think for a moment that one who has the Son will quit walking with Him altogether? Your dreaming. We do not wrestle against flesh and blood. Read my previous post, please.

-- The Holy Spirit isn't domineering and if you choose not to listen you will not hear his instruction.
Many Christians have given their lives to Christ and received the Holy Spirit in them.
But if you do not strive at that point to grow closer to him and to hear his still small voice, then you are in danger of falling into sin.
How many high profile cases of someone in church leadership sinning do you need to see?
If you do not turn from that sin, then the Holy Spirit eventually grows quiet. It's influence becomes nothing.
Many a person who has sincerely and whole heartedly given their lives to Christ have, due to their own lack of dilligence and willful disobedience fallen away and died in their sin.
This is where someone says, "Then they weren't really saved in the first place." Ridiculous.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

2 Peter 1:10-11

10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

This does not speak of lose of salvation, only stumbling in our walk.

And this speaks to the end result of that aspect.

Jude 24

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.


Let me again make note for all to read, I in no way advocate lawlessness. I completely agree that bad trees bear rotten fruit. I also agree that sanctification is a cooperative practice, yet God is the enabler, we are merely cooperators.

This is not what the passage is saying at ALL. He’s not saying that OUR life can’t take us away from God. He’s talking about the THINGS in life.

Then why is life contrasted with death? Paul could have said "things in life" like you suggest yet he didn't.

As far as Sam, can you see into the hearts and minds of men as God does?

Where is my perversion of the Jeremiah text? The text speaks for itself, you are the one adding to the text not me. Perhaps you need to look at the three fingers point back at yourself as opposed to the one you are pointing at me. Why do you bring up Calvin?

My premise is this alone. Those God intends to save, are saved as promised, none will thwart God's intentions, not even ourselves.

Let me make this simpler.

John 6:37-40
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Lets just work with this text for now. Please speak to the passage and explain it in context showing me how I have interpreted it improperly. Please do not grab another verse out of context and attempt to apply it to this verse.

First of all - I brought up Calvin because he is the inventor of the false doctrine of OSAS that you cling to in vain. You should know that if you're going to follow his heresy..

As for cherry-picking Biblical passages in some desperate attempt to prove this false doctrine, you have to take ALL of Scripture in CONTEXT.
Context is critical when exegeting Scripture. I have presented several passages that refute OSAS - your bizarre eisegesis notwithstanding.

You make the false claim that not even WE can thwart the will of God when it comes to our salvation, but the Scriptures say different. The Parable of the Prodigal Son is a classic example of this. A son of god who was secure - and LOST it. He only got it back because of his repentance.
Another example is when Jesus was rebuking Jerusalem upon his arrival. He told them:

Matt. 23:37
"How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!"

This is a crucial blow to the falsehood of OSAS.

Finally, as I pointed out earlier, 1 Tim. 2:4 tells us that God wills the salvation of ALL. Tell me something - are ALL saved??
Has God's will been fulfilled - or thwarted?

 

[jiggyfly]

Here's a scripture worth consideration.


1 Then what’s the advantage of being a Jew? Is there any value in the ceremony of circumcision?2 Yes, there are great benefits! First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the whole revelation of God. 3 True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?4 Of course not! Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say about him,
“You will be proved right in what you say, and you will win your case in court.”
5 “But,” some might say, “our sinfulness serves a good purpose, for it helps people see how righteous God is. Isn’t it unfair, then, for him to punish us?” (This is merely a human point of view.)6 Of course not! If God were not entirely fair, how would he be qualified to judge the world?7 “But,” someone might still argue, “how can God condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?”8 And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things deserve to be condemned.
Romans 3:1-8 (NLT)

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Here's a scripture worth consideration.


1 Then what’s the advantage of being a Jew? Is there any value in the ceremony of circumcision?2 Yes, there are great benefits! First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the whole revelation of God. 3 True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?4 Of course not! Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say about him,
“You will be proved right in what you say, and you will win your case in court.”
5 “But,” some might say, “our sinfulness serves a good purpose, for it helps people see how righteous God is. Isn’t it unfair, then, for him to punish us?” (This is merely a human point of view.)6 Of course not! If God were not entirely fair, how would he be qualified to judge the world?7 “But,” someone might still argue, “how can God condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?”8 And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things deserve to be condemned.
Romans 3:1-8 (NLT)

This passage is telling us that God is never unfaithful - which is absolutely true.
Hoever, this doesn't mean that WE can't be unfaithful. Read the Old Testament. God was NEVER unfaithful to the Jews - but they were unfaithful to HIM.

This is why the New Testament spends so much time driving the point home about marriage and faithfulness to each other. It is not only true for married couples but it also serves as a metaphor for God's relationship with His Church. We are the Bride of Christ.

 

[jiggyfly]

This passage is telling us that God is never unfaithful - which is absolutely true.
Hoever, this doesn't mean that WE can't be unfaithful. Read the Old Testament. God was NEVER unfaithful to the Jews - but they were unfaithful to HIM.

This is why the New Testament spends so much time driving the point home about marriage and faithfulness to each other. It is not only true for married couples but it also serves as a metaphor for God's relationship with His Church. We are the Bride of Christ.

Exactly, we can be unfaithful but our unfaithfulness doesn't prevent God from being faithful. I agree.

 

[justaname]

First of all - I brought up Calvin because he is the inventor of the false doctrine of OSAS that you cling to in vain. You should know that if you're going to follow his heresy..

As for cherry-picking Biblical passages in some desperate attempt to prove this false doctrine, you have to take ALL of Scripture in CONTEXT.
Context is critical when exegeting Scripture. I have presented several passages that refute OSAS - your bizarre eisegesis notwithstanding.

You make the false claim that not even WE can thwart the will of God when it comes to our salvation, but the Scriptures say different. The Parable of the Prodigal Son is a classic example of this. A son of god who was secure - and LOST it. He only got it back because of his repentance.
Another example is when Jesus was rebuking Jerusalem upon his arrival. He told them:

Matt. 23:37
"How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!"

This is a crucial blow to the falsehood of OSAS.

Finally, as I pointed out earlier, 1 Tim. 2:4 tells us that God wills the salvation of ALL. Tell me something - are ALL saved??
Has God's will been fulfilled - or thwarted?

So you decide not to comment on the text I posted... and cherry pick some more texts you don't seem to comprehend.

Let me explain these ones for you now.

1. The prodigal son was saved!

Matthew 23:37
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

2. This is before the cross! These were Jews under the Old Covenant. We are talking about God's plan of salvation under the New Covenant.

1 Timothy 2:4
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

3. There is nothing inconsistent with this and OSAS. God's plan of salvation is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus the Christ and the belief in such. Upon obedience to the Father's will, Jesus became the propitiation for the sin of humanity, yet not all will believe, and God knows who will and who will not believe. Being that God is love, He desires all to be saved.

For your sake I am going to repost this...This pretty much explains it all here.

Luke 8:11-15
11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 “Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
13 “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 “The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 “But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

I think most people have a problem with the seed that fell among the thorns and rocky soil. They see this as God saving these at first and then removing the gift of salvation, yet clearly explained by Jesus Himself, these are not saved. Yes they may have a temporary form of belief, but it is not salvific at all.


Lets look at a little quote from Paul...
2 Timothy 4:7-8

7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Paul seemed to be sure of His salvation.

You accuse me of eisegesis yet I have done nothing of the sort. Lets look at one of your posts...
[SIZE=small]You have perverted [/SIZE]Jeremiah 32:40[SIZE=small], making it say something it doesn’t.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]God certainly puts the fear of Him in our hearts so we won’t turn away – HOWEVER, many do anyway. 1 Timothy 2:4 tells us that ALL men to be saved and to come to the [/SIZE]knowledge of the truth. Does that mean that ALL will be saved?? NOTaccording to Jesus (Matt. 7:13-14, 21-23).

According to you, your finite observations supersede the word of God... Sounds like eisegesis to me.

Jeremiah 32:40
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Now we have the dilemma of those who were "Christians" walking away from the faith. We can look at this and say well the word of God must be wrong (arrogance); exactly what you did.

Or maybe what I perceive happening is actually different than what I think. Perhaps these who were self professed "Christians" were just that, only self professed. Perhaps God never put the fear of Himself in them. Perhaps they were never really endowed with the HolySpirit. Perhaps they had a false faith. Perhaps they were of rocky or thorny soil.

Lets try this again...

John 6:37-40
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Lets just work with this text for now. Please speak to the passage and explain it in context showing me how I have interpreted it improperly. Please do not grab another verse out of context and attempt to apply it to this verse.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

So you decide not to comment on the text I posted... and cherry pick some more texts you don't seem to comprehend.

Let me explain these ones for you now.

1. The prodigal son was saved!

Matthew 23:37

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

2. This is before the cross! These were Jews under the Old Covenant. We are talking about God's plan of salvation under the New Covenant.

1 Timothy 2:4

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

3. There is nothing inconsistent with this and OSAS. God's plan of salvation is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus the Christ and the belief in such. Upon obedience to the Father's will, Jesus became the propitiation for the sin of humanity, yet not all will believe, and God knows who will and who will not believe. Being that God is love, He desires all to be saved.

For your sake I am going to repost this...


This pretty much explains it all here.

Luke 8:11-15
11 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 “Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
13 “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 “The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 “But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

I think most people have a problem with the seed that fell among the thorns and rocky soil. They see this as God saving these at first and then removing the gift of salvation, yet clearly explained by Jesus Himself, these are not saved. Yes they may have a temporary form of belief, but it is not salvific at all.

Lets look at a little quote from Paul...
2 Timothy 4:7-8

7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Paul seemed to be sure of His salvation.

You accuse me of eisegesis yet I have done nothing of the sort. Lets look at one of your posts...


[SIZE=small]You have perverted Jeremiah 32:40, making it say something it doesn’t.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]God certainly puts the fear of Him in our hearts so we won’t turn away – HOWEVER, many do anyway. 1 Timothy 2:4 tells us that ALL men to be saved and to come to the [/SIZE]knowledge of the truth. Does that mean that ALL will be saved?? NOTaccording to Jesus (Matt. 7:13-14, 21-23).

According to you, your finite observations supersede the word of God... Sounds like eisegesis to me.

Jeremiah 32:40

40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Now we have the dilemma of those who were "Christians" walking away from the faith. We can look at this and say well the word of God must be wrong (arrogance) exactly what you did.

Or maybe what I perceive happening is actually different than what I think. Perhaps these who were self professed "Christians" were just that, only self professed. Perhaps God never put the fear of Himself in them. Perhaps they were never really endowed with the HolySpirit. Perhaps they had a false faith. Perhaps they were of rocky or thorny soil.

WRONG on all counts, my Scripturally-challenged friend.

First of all - Paul was NOT certain iof his salvation. He was onley sure of it from the stance that he would be saved IF he stayed faithful to the end. This is why I told you NOT to cherry-pick and to view ALL Scripture in context - but you just don't listen.

Paul ALSO said this about his salvation:
[SIZE=10pt]1 Cor. 9:27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]"I pummel my body and subdue it,[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]1 Cor. 4:4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]"I am not aware of anything against myself,[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me."[/SIZE]

Secondly - you're STILL perverting Jeremiah 32:40 by trying to make it say something it doesn't. In the CONTEXT of Scripture, this passage is saying what I have said ALL along:
God will NOT abandon us - but we can abandon Him. He puts the fear of Him inside of us so that we won't turn away - but we DO, EVERY time we sin. Many completely turn away from Him.

The Jews in the desert saw the wonders and might of God FIRSTHAND - and they STILL turned away from Him. The only ones in ALL of Scripture who thought they had a 100% guarantee of heaven and could not lose it were the Pharisees.
Good luck with that.

 

[justaname]

WRONG on all counts, my Scripturally-challenged friend.

First of all - Paul was NOT certain iof his salvation. He was onley sure of it from the stance that he would be saved IF he stayed faithful to the end. This is why I told you NOT to cherry-pick and to view ALL Scripture in context - but you just don't listen.

Paul ALSO said this about his salvation:
1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

1 Cor. 4:4
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me."

Secondly - you're STILL perverting Jeremiah 32:40 by trying to make it say something it doesn't. In the CONTEXT of Scripture, this passage is saying what I have said ALL along:
God will NOT abandon us - but we can abandon Him. He puts the fear of Him inside of us so that we won't turn away - but we DO, EVERY time we sin. Many completely turn away from Him.

The Jews in the desert saw the wonders and might of God FIRSTHAND - and they STILL turned away from Him. The only ones in ALL of Scripture who thought they had a 100% guarantee of heaven and could not lose it were the Pharisees.
Good luck with that.

Now the insults begin... Real Christlike.


7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Where is the "if" you are talking about?

The Jeremiah text speaks for itself... We will not turn from Him because of the fear He instilled in our hearts. You can read all your false doctrine and imperfect observations into that verse you want... That does not change the truth God conveys in His text.

1 Corinthians 9:27 Pauls says he practices what he preaches.
1 Corinthians 4:4 Pauls states he is not justified because of his own righteousness, or that he does not justify himself, or that because he is unaware of anything against himself does not mean he is justified... God is the judge.

It seems self evident you refuse to comment on the John 6:37-40 verse...
Lets try a different one.

Ephesians 1:3-13

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,​

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love​

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,​

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.​

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace​

8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight​

9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him​

10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him​

11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,​

12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.​

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,​

14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

Honestly this is a big chunk... so lets start small. This gives the context around the text though so we can make educated decisions on what the text means.​

A little lesson on context, since you seem to have the wrong impression. When looking at context. you must look to the surrounding text to see if you can gain understanding as to what the author is conveying. When looking into other books, this is not looking at the context of the immediate text but rather attempting to glean from another source to see if comprehension can be reached. Usually you attempt to stick with the same author, but this is not what is meant by context.​

We do know all scripture is useful 2Timothy 3:16... Yet not all scripture will explain or give insight to another given scripture. This is why context of a text is important in discovering the author's intent.​

Back to the discussion.​

Ephesians 1:4-6​

​

4​

​

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love​

​

5​

​

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,​

​

6​

​

to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.​

According to the word of God, those who are saved have been chosen before the foundation of the world. This is according to God's intention, not our free will decision. Those who are saved are predestined, and chosen, that they would be blameless. Because God knows the end from the beginning, these were going to be saved before they were born and their lives were not going to get in the way of their salvation. This is the same for all He saves.​

​

​

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Now the insults begin... Real Christlike.


7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Where is the "if" you are talking about?

The Jeremiah text speaks for itself... We will not turn from Him because of the fear He instilled in our hearts. You can read all your false doctrine and imperfect observations into that verse you want... That does not change the truth God conveys in His text.

1 Corinthians 9:27 Pauls says he practices what he preaches.
1 Corinthians 4:4 Pauls states he is not justified because of his own righteousness, or that he does not justify himself, or that because he is unaware of anything against himself does not mean he is justified... God is the judge.

It seems self evident you refuse to comment on the John 6:37-40 verse...
Lets try a different one.

Ephesians 1:3-13

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,​

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love​

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,​

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.​

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace​

8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight​

9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him​

10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him​

11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,​

12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.​

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,​

14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

Honestly this is a big chunk... so lets start small. This gives the context around the text though so we can make educated decisions on what the text means.​

A little lesson on context, since you seem to have the wrong impression. When looking at context. you must look to the surrounding text to see if you can gain understanding as to what the author is conveying. When looking into other books, this is not looking at the context of the immediate text but rather attempting to glean from another source to see if comprehension can be reached. Usually you attempt to stick with the same author, but this is not what is meant by context.​

We do know all scripture is useful 2Timothy 3:16... Yet not all scripture will explain or give insight to another given scripture. This is why context of a text is important in discovering the author's intent.​

Back to the discussion.​

Ephesians 1:4-6​

​

4​

​

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love​

​

5​

​

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,​

​

6​

​

to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.​

According to the word of God, those who are saved have been chosen before the foundation of the world. This is according to God's intention, not our free will decision. Those who are saved are predestined, and chosen, that they would be blameless. Because God knows the end from the beginning, these were going to be saved before they were born and their lives were not going to get in the way of their salvation. This is the same for all He saves.​

ALL Scripture must harmonize or it is ALL a lie. You can cherry-pick all of the verses you want but if they don't harmonize with the other Scriptures, they don't mean squat. This is the tragic confusion that is Protestantism - building false doctrines based on the feelings and opinions of so many individuals. I can show you a verse that states emphatically, "There is no God" (Psalm 14:1) - but that is not the point it is making in CONTEXT.

I have given you verse after verse after verse and have watched as you rationalize the truth away each and every time. Look at the origins of the false doctrines of Protestantism. They were built upon rebellion and divorce from the Church - which, by the way, never taught these Calvinist falsehoods in the frist 1500 years of Christianity.

As for words like "predestined" amd "foreknew", I have already illustrated that the Biblical writers used terms that a mostly illiterate audience could understand. God doesn't foreknow ANYTHING. He is in the Eternal NOW and sees all time as a finished painting because He is not bound by time. The Bible says that with God - ALL things are possible - however, there are some things that are impossible for God. For instance, He cannot move from Point A to Point B because He is already there. He cannot create something that is too heavy for Him to life because He is ALL-Powerful.

Many Protestants simply cannot see context when it comes to Scripture because they are too busy picking everything apart and inventing new doctrines - instead of reading it as it was intended. Unfortunately, your posts are no different . . .

 

[justaname]

ALL Scripture must harmonize or it is ALL a lie. You can cherry-pick all of the verses you want but if they don't harmonize with the other Scriptures, they don't mean squat. This is the tragic confusion that is Protestantism - building false doctrines based on the feelings and opinions of so many individuals. I can show you a verse that states emphatically, "There is no God" (Psalm 14:1) - but that is not the point it is making in CONTEXT.

I have given you verse after verse after verse and have watched as you rationalize the truth away each and every time. Look at the origins of the false doctrines of Protestantism. They were built upon rebellion and divorce from the Church - which, by the way, never taught these Calvinist falsehoods in the frist 1500 years of Christianity.

As for words like "predestined" amd "foreknew", I have already illustrated that the Biblical writers used terms that a mostly illiterate audience could understand. God doesn't foreknow ANYTHING. He is in the Eternal NOW and sees all time as a finished painting because He is not bound by time. The Bible says that with God - ALL things are possible - however, there are some things that are impossible for God. For instance, He cannot move from Point A to Point B because He is already there. He cannot create something that is too heavy for Him to life because He is ALL-Powerful.

Many Protestants simply cannot see context when it comes to Scripture because they are too busy picking everything apart and inventing new doctrines - instead of reading it as it was intended. Unfortunately, your posts are no different . . .

Well again you refuse to comment on topic... and as I have illustrated from all the texts given in this thread all scripture does agree with OSAS.

But you do also illustrate my point very well, thank you.
Those who are saved, are saved through their entire lives in the sight of God, because there were always in God's saving plan of salvation for them. For God it is not an on again off again relationship because He is already at the end of our lives, He, like you said is eternal. Once you are on God's path of salvation you are never off it. Brilliant!

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Well again you refuse to comment on topic... and as I have illustrated from all the texts given in this thread all scripture does agree with OSAS.

But you do also illustrate my point very well, thank you.
Those who are saved, are saved through their entire lives in the sight of God, because there were always in God's saving plan of salvation for them. For God it is not an on again off again relationship because He is already at the end of our lives, He, like you said is eternal. Once you are on God's path of salvation you are never off it. Brilliant!

Just like the Prodigal Son who was secure - then LOST - then was found again, the same goes for us.
"He was dead and is alive again. He was LOST and is found" (Luke 15:24, 32).

Note that Jesus tells us that the son who was secure with his father was dead and is alive AGAIN. OSAS is nothing more than a resurgence of the Pharisaic hypocrisy that Jesus constantly rebuked.

 

[justaname]

Just like the Prodigal Son who was secure - then LOST - then was found again, the same goes for us.
"He was dead and is alive again. He was LOST and is found" (Luke 15:24, 32).

Note that Jesus tells us that the son who was secure with his father was dead and is alive AGAIN. OSAS is nothing more than a resurgence of the Pharisaic hypocrisy that Jesus constantly rebuked.

I do agree, we are lost until we come to Jesus on our knees. Repentance was/is always a part of the gospel. John the Baptist taught repentance, Jesus taught repentance, the apostles taught repentance. Nobody doubts this. The doctrine of OSAS does not speak against repenting or of being lost. Yet God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. We from a human perspective we are lost, yet God knows exactly where we are at all times.


Can you please expand on that last statement a bit. Since Jesus constantly rebuked OSAS or a similar hypocrisy, in a time when the salvation plan was not even instituted. Remember the law kills but the Spirit gives life...

Do you have supporting scripture on your theory?

 

[williemac]

I do agree, we are lost until we come to Jesus on our knees. Repentance was/is always a part of the gospel. John the Baptist taught repentance, Jesus taught repentance, the apostles taught repentance. Nobody doubts this. The doctrine of OSAS does not speak against repenting or of being lost. Yet God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. We from a human perspective we are lost, yet God knows exactly where we are at all times.


Can you please expand on that last statement a bit. Since Jesus constantly rebuked OSAS or a similar hypocrisy, in a time when the salvation plan was not even instituted. Remember the law kills but the Spirit gives life...

Do you have supporting scripture on your theory?

I am going to jump in and disagree with or at least clarify the subject of repentance. That word is taken from the Greek 'meta' and 'noia, or noya.'. The one means change, the other, 'mind' (as in paranoia). In fact, in the KJV, it is even said that God repented of making man at one point. The word is incorrectly used by many and most as they are taught; that it means to turn from sin.
The turning from sin or abstinence from sin comes about as a result of having been born from above and given everlasting life. The error that is common is putting repentance from sin into the arena of justification for life.

On the day of Pentecost when the crowd witnessed the strange events and some suggested that they were drunk, Peter stood up and corrected them. He informed them that this was what had been prophesied and that they had rejected and killed the One who was actually sent as their Messiah, and whom God raised up from death (Act 2:23,24). In vs.37, we read that they were cut to the heart and asked "what shall we do?" Peter's reply was "repent and let every one of you be baptized in His name for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Peter told them to repent, to change their mind. About what? What were they cut to the heart about? Did Peter mention anywhere about their lifestyles or their transgression of law? No. He informed them that they had rejected and killed the Messiah. This is what they were told to change their minds about. This is what they had been cut to the heart about. They repented from their unbelief, were baptized rather in His name, and received the remission (removal) of sin. The context reveals what the repentance is from.

Repentance unto salvation is the turning to Christ for forgiveness of sin and the gift of life. It includes the acknowledgment of sin and even confession of sin, but not repentance from sin. Repentance specifically from sin is an ongoing path in the life of a believer. It does not qualify one for salvation from sin.

This is why repentance from sin is not mentioned in Rom.10:9,10, nor in John 3:16, nor in John 6:50,51, nor in John 5:24, etc. Those passages tell us how to be saved. There is a turning that is implied in these passages. It is a turning from unbelief. The repentance that God is looking for is first, from unbelief. In fact for the Jews, it is repentance from dead works (Heb.6:1). These are the works of the law...works that cannot bring life. The turning to faith instead, is also mentioned in the passage.

The key to life is found in humility (God gives grace to the humble), and faith. The repentance that is required is the turning from the opposite of these.
When we mis-define the word repent, then we turn our walk and our justification before God into a mix of grace and law; faith, and works of law. This is leaven. This is double mindedness.

 

[justaname]

Acts 26:19-20

19 “So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

I agree with everything you say except "The word is incorrectly used by many and most as they are taught; that it means to turn from sin."
Repentance from sin and repentance from our thinking go hand in hand.

We are to turn from sin also...
1John 7-9
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

When we mis-define the word repent, then we turn our walk and our justification before God into a mix of grace and law; faith, and works of law. This is leaven. This is double mindedness.

Very good. When we repent of unbelief, we find the problem of sin is taken care of.

I do learn things from you.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

I do agree, we are lost until we come to Jesus on our knees. Repentance was/is always a part of the gospel. John the Baptist taught repentance, Jesus taught repentance, the apostles taught repentance. Nobody doubts this. The doctrine of OSAS does not speak against repenting or of being lost. Yet God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. We from a human perspective we are lost, yet God knows exactly where we are at all times.


Can you please expand on that last statement a bit. Since Jesus constantly rebuked OSAS or a similar hypocrisy, in a time when the salvation plan was not even instituted. Remember the law kills but the Spirit gives life...

Do you have supporting scripture on your theory?

It's silly to say that Jesus could not have said or done somethng because "the salvation plan was not even instituted". THAT'S why he came.
He CAME to show us how to get to heaven. He hadn't died on the cross but He was teaching the people God's plan for salvation.

OSAS falsely asserts that there is nothing you can do to lose your "secure" place with God - but the Scriptures say different. This flies in the face of repentance.
If you are "saved" - eternally secure - and you commit a grave sin today (adultery, murder, etc.) without repenting, guess what?? Your salvation is not secure. Had the Prodigal son NOT repented - he would not have come back to life. He would not have been found.
This is the entire message of that Parable.

[SIZE=10pt]2 Peter 3:17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]"Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]We ARE secure - IF we continue to walk in the Spirit and DO the will of God (Matt. 7:21).[/SIZE]

I am going to jump in and disagree with or at least clarify the subject of repentance. That word is taken from the Greek 'meta' and 'noia, or noya.'. The one means change, the other, 'mind' (as in paranoia). In fact, in the KJV, it is even said that God repented of making man at one point. The word is incorrectly used by many and most as they are taught; that it means to turn from sin.
The turning from sin or abstinence from sin comes about as a result of having been born from above and given everlasting life. The error that is common is putting repentance from sin into the arena of justification for life.

On the day of Pentecost when the crowd witnessed the strange events and some suggested that they were drunk, Peter stood up and corrected them. He informed them that this was what had been prophesied and that they had rejected and killed the One who was actually sent as their Messiah, and whom God raised up from death (Act 2:23,24). In vs.37, we read that they were cut to the heart and asked "what shall we do?" Peter's reply was "repent and let every one of you be baptized in His name for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Peter told them to repent, to change their mind. About what? What were they cut to the heart about? Did Peter mention anywhere about their lifestyles or their transgression of law? No. He informed them that they had rejected and killed the Messiah. This is what they were told to change their minds about. This is what they had been cut to the heart about. They repented from their unbelief, were baptized rather in His name, and received the remission (removal) of sin. The context reveals what the repentance is from.

Repentance unto salvation is the turning to Christ for forgiveness of sin and the gift of life. It includes the acknowledgment of sin and even confession of sin, but not repentance from sin. Repentance specifically from sin is an ongoing path in the life of a believer. It does not qualify one for salvation from sin.

This is why repentance from sin is not mentioned in Rom.10:9,10, nor in John 3:16, nor in John 6:50,51, nor in John 5:24, etc. Those passages tell us how to be saved. There is a turning that is implied in these passages. It is a turning from unbelief. The repentance that God is looking for is first, from unbelief. In fact for the Jews, it is repentance from dead works (Heb.6:1). These are the works of the law...works that cannot bring life. The turning to faith instead, is also mentioned in the passage.

The key to life is found in humility (God gives grace to the humble), and faith. The repentance that is required is the turning from the opposite of these.
When we mis-define the word repent, then we turn our walk and our justification before God into a mix of grace and law; faith, and works of law. This is leaven. This is double mindedness.

When Paul spoke of works of the Law - he was speaking about the MOSAIC Law - which was a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ.
Works are not simply a "good idea" or something that uncontrollably flows out of us becaue of our faith. They are essential, in that. not only are they proof of our faith, they are required as we walk in the Lord and continue our journey. This is what the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is all about (Matt. 25:31-46).