The Doctrine of OSAS

[Butch5]

What does the seed remain in? .....

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Not what, who. Who does the seed remain in.

 

[ATP]

Not what, who. Who does the seed remain in.

Those that are born of God Butch John 3:3, 7 NIV.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

 

[Barrd]

Barrd, what is the Greek word for judgment seat in 2 Cor 5:10 NIV.
The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek silly.
Yes, we will receive rewards and crowns at the Bema seat before the 1,000 reign with Christ.

1 - Crown 1 - Crown of Righteousness— Loved the Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8 NIV
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27 NIV
3 - Crown 3 - Crown of Life— Endured Patiently through Trials - James 1:12 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV
4 - Crown 4 - Crown of Glory— Godly Leaders Who were Examples to Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV
5 - Crown 5 - Crown of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, Dan 12:3 NIV

That's what the web site I pulled up said.
Well, not all that bit about which rewards and crowns, or when this Bema judgment would occur....just that it is comparable to the kind of judgment that takes place at the Olympic Games.

It makes me smile to think of Jesus sitting at the head of a group of angels....as each runner comes before the Bema seat, each angel holds his cardboard over his head...better hope you get a 10!

And I think I explained to you...I have never relied on scholars' opinions....just my Bible. I took Latin in high school...but not Greek. Sorry....

 

[Butch5]

Of course they don't Butch. Glad to have you back buddy.

Inferences aren't facts.

 

[ATP]

That's what the web site I pulled up said.
Well, not all that bit about which rewards and crowns, or when this Bema judgment would occur....just that it is comparable to the kind of judgment that takes place at the Olympic Games.

It makes me smile to think of Jesus sitting at the head of a group of angels....as each runner comes before the Bema seat, each angel holds his cardboard over his head...better hope you get a 10!

And I think I explained to you...I have never relied on scholars' opinions....just my Bible. I took Latin in high school...but not Greek. Sorry....

Why are you going to random websites. Stick to the Greek Barrd. The NT was written in Greek.

 

[ATP]

Inferences aren't facts.

Post 1002.

 

[Barrd]

Of course believers will keep his commandments Barrd...1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

John 13:34-35 NIV “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12 NIV My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

John 15:17 NIV This is my command: Love each other.

Gal 5:6 NIV For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Gal 5:14 NIV For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 Tim 1:3-7 NIV As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

1 John 3:23 NIV And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

1 John 4:21 NIV And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

2 John 1:5-6 NIV And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

As usual, you did not read the entire post.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Why would we need an advocate with the Father, if we did not sin?

I don't know how many times I've heard you OSAS types say that Christ's blood covers all your sins....past, present, and future. You've told me that, yourself.
And no, I'm not going back through reams of pages to find your posts. I'm pretty sure you know you've said it yourself, back when you were trying to convince me that "Joe Bob" could molest his 8 year old son, and still go to heaven, because he had been "saved".
Yes, I know....the lyrics have changed since then....but the melody is the same....

 

[justaname]

Honestly, you are as bad as some of your fanclub, Justaname. Did you actually read what I posted?


Okay, let me explain myself more thoroughly on this one.
First of all, God has not invited me to sit on a committee to decide who is, and who is not saved. And I'm willing to bet my last Jesus fish bumper sticker that He hasn't invited you to sit on such a committee, either.
However, I believe that He has indicated that He will restore the wanderer (i.e. apostate) to His loving Grace.

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

The tale of the Prodigal Son is one of my very favorites:

Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
Luk 15:12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
Luk 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
Luk 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
Luk 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Does God save those who go apostate?
It seems that He does. If not, Jesus is a liar.
However, I would caution anyone who thinks that they can leave Him for a season and go indulge in sin, and then, when they are ready, come back and expect to be restored...I wouldn't recommend it.

It is written "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."


You want me to sit here and tell you what is in the Mind of God?
You don't expect much do you.

IN MY OPINION...and understand, that is all it is, is my opinion...much depends on the individual "apostate".
I believe that everyone who comes to Him receives the Holy Spirit. Which would mean that every one who comes to Him receives that seal. It seems to be kind of like the blood of the Paschal lamb that was put around the doorway of the Hebrew's homes...it protects those who follow Jesus.
However, there is a caveat. God can revoke that seal. Don't say that He can't...remember, nothing is impossible for Him.
He can also renew it, should He restore that wandering apostate to His loving Grace.

I see I did not word the first question bullet proof...

Does God save the apostate who remains apostate until they die would have been a better question...I digress.


It is your In My Opinion I am interested in here really...

Here is how Paul explains the process...

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

What I want you to zero in on is that we are sealed with a view to the redemption of God's own possession.

Here is the KJV...

3 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

This is stating the Holy Spirit is the guarantee or down payment or the signed deed or signed title of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. Purchased possession meaning the believer purchased through the blood of Christ.

To keep things in context...this is the section just before this. Listen to the language carefully...

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
9 He amade known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.


In this context it would not seem Paul nor God had a caveat in mind... where would you gather such a notion? To be clear I want to keep this question to this context. That would mean do not bring your preconceived notions to this portion of the text...

 

[Butch5]

Those that are born of God Butch John 3:3, 7 NIV.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Who is that?

 

[Barrd]

Why are you going to random websites. Stick to the Greek Barrd. The NT was written in Greek.

I don't speak Koine Greek, ATP.
And neither do you.

But I will look up a definition....it isn't hard.
It's how I learned what an "antinomian" is....remember? You had copied Justaname's little paragraph....but you couldn't tell me what the word meant?
It wasn't in your Strong's, was it?

 

[ATP]

As usual, you did not read the entire post.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Why would we need an advocate with the Father, if we did not sin?

1 John 3:9 NIV is about being convicted of specific sin and not going back to that sin. Sinning and then repenting is an ongoing process throughout life. Real repentance is a continuing repentance of that sin you were in five years ago. You will actually feel disgust for that old sin and never go back. That is the power of God at work in your life. True repentance is a blessing from God.

Rom 2:4 NIV Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

 

[Butch5]

Post 1002.

I read that post. It says nothing about whether or not salvation can be lost. Inferences are not facts.

 

[ATP]

Who is that?

Born again believers, John 3:3, 7 NIV.

I don't speak Koine Greek, ATP.
And neither do you.

But I will look up a definition....it isn't hard.
It's how I learned what an "antinomian" is....remember? You had copied Justaname's little paragraph....but you couldn't tell me what the word meant?
It wasn't in your Strong's, was it?

You ever heard of a Greek dictionary......http://biblehub.com/

 

[ATP]

I read that post. It says nothing about whether or not salvation can be lost. Inferences are not facts.

So those who are born of God are not born again?

 

[justaname]

Sure there are. However, my point stands. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that says what OSAS supporters claim. That doesn't even take into account that the doctrine has it's roots in Gnositcism.

You make assertions without evidence...that is simply opinion my friend.

 

[Butch5]

Born again believers, John 3:3, 7 NIV.


You ever heard of a Greek dictionary......http://biblehub.com/

Ah, so it's believers that the seed remains in, not those who stop believing.

 

[ATP]

Ah, so it's believers that the seed remains in, not those who stop believing.

When we are born again, justification only comes once Rom 10:9-10 NIV. How can we stop believing when the seed of God remains in us forever. Don't think too hard Butch.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

 

[ATP]

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[Butch5]

You make assertions without evidence...that is simply opinion my friend.

Not at all. I've posted passages and early church quotes showing that salvation can be lost and that this was the original teaching in the church. However, it wouldn't matter how much evidence I posted you guys would simply reject it. You're holding to your irrational arguments not matter what evidence is presented. This is what Oz was talking about in another thread when he said it's not possible to have a conversation when people are being illogical. He's right. You see there is not a single passage of Scripture that says salvation cannot be lost. Therefore you guys have to draw conclusions from inference. Do you guys not think we know of the passages you post? I know the passages are there and yet I don't believe in OSAS. That means I understand those passages differently that you guys do. The inferences you guys draw are not necessary inferences and in many cases not rational one, thus they are logical fallacies. However, it seems to me that you guys won't even recognize the fallacies. You guys post these passages as if your inferences are Scripture. This basically sets you up as the ultimate authority, thus anyone who says something different is simply wrong. However, the bottom line is that one cannot come to truth through illogical and irrational reasoning.

 

[Butch5]

When we are born again, justification only comes once Rom 10:9-10 NIV. How can we stop believing when the seed of God remains in us forever. Don't think too hard Butch.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

More inferences. How do you know they are correct inferences?

You've taken three passages of Scripture out of context. None of these are talking about whether or not salvation can be lost. Let me ask a question, If you want to know to know how to use a computer program do you go get the repair manual for your car? If not, then why post passages that don't deal with the subject in an attempt to prove the subject?