The Doctrine of OSAS

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
The Barrd said:
The Barrd does understand
Before we go any further, you need to get down the basics first..

1. Bread and wine represent the body and the blood of Jesus.
2. Demons have not accepted salvation and never will.

- ATP
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
It's amazing that this discussion is still going on. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that teaches that one can't lose salvation. Those who argue for it must draw inferences.
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
Butch5 said:
It's amazing that this discussion is still going on. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that teaches that one can't lose salvation. Those who argue for it must draw inferences.
Hi Butch. Good to see you again. How can we lose our salvation when the seed of God remains in us forever..

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
The Barrd said:
The Barrd does understand that God's Holy Angels once enjoyed His favor. They once lived with Him in Heaven. They once were His intimate friends. No human has ever been as close to God as Lucifer once was. If anyone could ever claim that he was secure in God's love, surely it was Lucifer....most beautiful of the angels.
And yet, there was a rebellion in Heaven....Lucifer fell...God cast Him out of Heaven...and he took fully a third of the Holy Angels with him.
You did know that Satan was once one of God's most loved angel, didn't you?
And where is he now?
What demon that you know of has accepted Jesus as Savior after the fall Barrd?
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
OzSpen said:
I'm not sure what you want me 'to expand' on. Would you please clarify?

I don't think I'm on target with your last paragraph. I'm not of the view that God zaps people with unconditional election and they are IN the kingdom, NEVER to be excluded. That's not what happened with the Philippian jailer according to Acts 16:30-31 (ESV): 'Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household”'. They did not say, 'Just leave it to God/Jesus; he decides if you are ever going to be saved'. No, these evangelists said, '(You) believe in the Lord Jesus....' As I understand soteriology, there is no salvation without the human responsibility of believing'. However, you and I know that salvation is of the Lord - from the Lord.

I find a better biblical emphasis than unconditional election to be that found in Titus 2:11 (ESV): 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'. This does not promote universalism, BUT it proves how God's saving grace is universal - is available to all. This is in contrast to Calvin's limited grace. I'll see if I can find this in Calvin's commentary online (I have it in a secondary source). Too often I've left CyB while composing a piece and when I returned, what I'd written had disappeared into the ethereal cloud.

Here it is:

Calvin's commentary on Titus 2:11 states of this phrase:

I find this to be an abominable piece of eisegesis. Calvin, a very accomplished commentator, has made 'all men' refer NOT to all individual men [meaning all human beings] but to individual classes of people and those in various ranks of life, including the race of slaves.

This is as bad a piece of exegesis that I've read anywhere as he makes 'all men' = some slaves and some from other classes and ranks in life. This is what happens when a commentator allows his predisposed presupposition (God's grace cannot be extended to all, but only to the elect) to intrude into his interpretation. Thus exegesis of this phrase in Titus 2;11 has become eisegesis in the hands of a Reformed Calvinist, the founder of the movement.

Oz
The "expand on" was with your view of different hermeneutics. I am seeking clarity in what you meant through that statement.

Let me try to boil this down some because I am still unclear on your position.

Do you believe once a believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit, God allows that individual to go apostate?

From my position God only seals those with the Holy Spirit those who will never go apostate because they are sealed until redemption with the Holy Spirit as their guarantee. Only those sealed with the Holy Spirit are born again into a new imperishable life passing from death into life never to enter judgment. Only these are in Christ. Only these are "saved". These will not lose their salvation because there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

I am under the full agreement atonement is not limited. 1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.


If unconditional election is true in the case of the believer, there would be no "zapping". These are chosen before the foundation of the world. God knowing all of His by name, never loses any. His sheep know His voice and they will not follow another.

Where I am unclear is who the elect are exactly...

Some may show the signs of being saved. Us human fruit inspectors may be fooled. Some going so far as to fool themselves, yet they go apostate and God was never fooled.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Butch5 said:
It's amazing that this discussion is still going on. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that teaches that one can't lose salvation. Those who argue for it must draw inferences.
It's amazing that this discussion is still going on. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that teaches that one can lose salvation. Those who argue for it must draw inferences.
 

rockytopva

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 31, 2010
5,159
2,360
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Believe in OSAS and you will have a liscence even to murder! On John Calvin toasting Michael Servetus....

"Neither God nor his Spirit have counselled such an action. Christ did not treat those who negated him that way." - Italian poet Camillo Renato on the Servetus execution
"To kill a man is not to protect a doctrine, but it is to kill a man." - French humanist Sébastien Chateillon on the Servetus execution
"I consider it a serious matter to kill men because they are in error on some question of scriptural interpretation, when we know that even the elect ones may be led astray into error." - Michael Servetus

In which John Calvin counters... "Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin

It seemed like Calvin himself would pay for such criminal deeds in this life (not to mention what awaits him in eternity) as his health receded in his fifties.

Fatally ill, and with blood flowing from his mouth, the 54 year-old pastor-theologian was carried to Saint Pierre in a chair. He was a man acquainted with pain. He suffered from terrible hemorrhoids, asthma, kidney stones, pulmonary tuberculosis, and gout. Fever was a consistent companion, and now he had ruptured blood vessels in his lungs due to his violent coughing spells. This same month he wrote of his tribulations to the doctors of Montpellier:

"But at that time [20 years ago] I was not attacked by gout, knew nothing of the stone or the gravel, was not tormented with the gripings of colic nor afflicted with piles nor threatened with haemorrhages. At present all these enemies charge me like troops. As soon as I recovered from a quartan fever, I was taken with severe and acute pains in my calves, which, after being partly relieved, returned a second and then third time. At last they turned into a disease of the joints, which spread from my feet to my knees. An ulcer in the haemorrhoid veins long tortured me ..." - John Calvin
 

rockytopva

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 31, 2010
5,159
2,360
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
justaname said:
It's amazing that this discussion is still going on. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that teaches that one can lose salvation. Those who argue for it must draw inferences.
As this doctrine came out of the Sardisean church age so the Lord gave his two cent in on this one...

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." - Revelation 3:5

So scripturally eternal security is granted to him 'who overcometh.' In which the Lord repeats over and over in scripture...

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. - Matthew 10:22
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Mark 13:13
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
The Barrd said:
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment...
This passage is about false prophets Barrd. We can clearly see that the godly are believers and the unrighteous are non believers. Notice it says the day of judgment here...2 Pet 2:9 NIV if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

Matt 10:15 NIV Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

John 5:29 ESV and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

John 6:39 NIV And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:54 NIV Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 11:24 NIV Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

John 12:48 NIV There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Rom 2:5 NIV But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

1 John 4:17 NIV This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

- ATP
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
ATP said:
Before we go any further, you need to get down the basics first..

1. Bread and wine represent the body and the blood of Jesus.
2. Demons have not accepted salvation and never will.

- ATP
I never said that the bread and wine represent anything else, ATP.
What I did say was that Jesus was not carving off bits of Himself to feed His Apostles, nor was He slitting His wrists to give them His blood to drink. I said that the bread and wine were figures.

And I never said that demons would or could accept salvation. Nor did they need to. The point was that they WERE secure in the Father's love....but they sinned.
Again, you did not read what I posted. As usual you are so eager to prove your point that you jump right in without checking for hazards first.

What I actually said:
The Barrd does understand that God's Holy Angels once enjoyed His favor. They once lived with Him in Heaven. They once were His intimate friends. No human has ever been as close to God as Lucifer once was. If anyone could ever claim that he was secure in God's love, surely it was Lucifer....most beautiful of the angels.
And yet, there was a rebellion in Heaven....Lucifer fell...God cast Him out of Heaven...and he took fully a third of the Holy Angels with him.
You did know that Satan was once one of God's most loved angel, didn't you?
And where is he now?

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment...

Dare we, then, to suppose that our own "security" might not be compromised, should we also rebel?
And what is sin, but rebellion against God?

Forget the web sites. Any idiot can put up a web site....and you'd be surprised at how many of them do. Sure there are thousands-even millions-of sites that support OSAS. But I can pull up just as many that refute it.
Forget what you may have heard from behind some pulpit. Pastors and preachers are going to preach whatever their denomination requires...if they didn't, they wouldn't have a job. Can you imagine how tough things could get for an out-of-work pastor? These days, they don't even have to write their own stuff....you can download sermons from the internet. Even laymen like you and me can do it, and it's free.
Forget the scholars....they don't even agree with each other, let alone with Jesus.

Jesus. Yeah, remember Him?
There is a lot more to Him than the Blood He shed at Calvary. Much, much more. If you could manage to leave Paul for a bit, and flip back to the gospels, you'd find that He had quite a bit to say.

I've suggested to ATP before....read the Sermon on the Mount.
Really READ it.
You can find it in the Gospel according to Matthew, chapters 5, 6, and 7.
Some of the most beautiful words ever spoken are there....but I never hear any of you OSASers quoting them.
I wonder why not?
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
rockytopva said:
Believe in OSAS and you will have a liscence even to murder! On John Calvin toasting Michael Servetus....

"Neither God nor his Spirit have counselled such an action. Christ did not treat those who negated him that way." - Italian poet Camillo Renato on the Servetus execution
"To kill a man is not to protect a doctrine, but it is to kill a man." - French humanist Sébastien Chateillon on the Servetus execution
"I consider it a serious matter to kill men because they are in error on some question of scriptural interpretation, when we know that even the elect ones may be led astray into error." - Michael Servetus

In which John Calvin counters... "Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin

It seemed like Calvin himself would pay for such criminal deeds in this life (not to mention what awaits him in eternity) as his health receded in his fifties.

Fatally ill, and with blood flowing from his mouth, the 54 year-old pastor-theologian was carried to Saint Pierre in a chair. He was a man acquainted with pain. He suffered from terrible hemorrhoids, asthma, kidney stones, pulmonary tuberculosis, and gout. Fever was a consistent companion, and now he had ruptured blood vessels in his lungs due to his violent coughing spells. This same month he wrote of his tribulations to the doctors of Montpellier:

"But at that time [20 years ago] I was not attacked by gout, knew nothing of the stone or the gravel, was not tormented with the gripings of colic nor afflicted with piles nor threatened with haemorrhages. At present all these enemies charge me like troops. As soon as I recovered from a quartan fever, I was taken with severe and acute pains in my calves, which, after being partly relieved, returned a second and then third time. At last they turned into a disease of the joints, which spread from my feet to my knees. An ulcer in the haemorrhoid veins long tortured me ..." - John Calvin
YIKES!
Poor guy, I actually feel sorry for him...
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
The Barrd said:
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Now, I could post the entire passage, but it is very long...and you won't read it all anyway. What is happening here is that Jesus is talking about what we now call the eucharist, or the Lord's Supper, which He says is His body and His blood, and further says that unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood we have no part with Him.
Understandably, this idea confused and upset many of His disciples...and who can blame them? As you probably know, there are Catholics who firmly believe that the bread and wine actually do become real flesh and blood...an idea that makes me nauseous. Of course, I believe that He was talking figuratively.
Anyway, I am not the only one with a weak stomach. Evidently, many of His disciples were also sickened by this idea...and they didn't seem to think He was speaking figuratively:
You had said John 6:47 is figurative language. That is false Barrd.
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
ATP said:
This passage is about false prophets Barrd. We can clearly see that the godly are believers and the unrighteous are non believers. Notice it says the day of judgment here...2 Pet 2:9 NIV if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

Matt 10:15 NIV Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

John 5:29 ESV and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

John 6:39 NIV And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:54 NIV Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 11:24 NIV Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

John 12:48 NIV There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Rom 2:5 NIV But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

1 John 4:17 NIV This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

- ATP
Oh, you mean these guys:

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The ones who had escaped the pollutions of the world...that would be sin....through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ....there is no other escape. Yet the got tangled back up in sin again, and over come....and they are worse off now than they were before? Before what, then, ATP?
The ones who had once known the way of righteousness, but who turned from the holy commandment delivered unto them? Are those the people you are talking about?
The ones that God, through the mouth of His Apostle, compares to dogs returning to their vomit? Or to pigs who were washed returning to wallowing in filth?

These are obviously apostates, ATP.
In case you still don't know what that word means, it means that they had hold of faith, but they lost it.
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
The Barrd said:
Oh, you mean these guys:

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The ones who had escaped the pollutions of the world...that would be sin....through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ....there is no other escape. Yet the got tangled back up in sin again, and over come....and they are worse off now than they were before? Before what, then, ATP?
The ones who had once known the way of righteousness, but who turned from the holy commandment delivered unto them? Are those the people you are talking about?
The ones that God, through the mouth of His Apostle, compares to dogs returning to their vomit? Or to pigs who were washed returning to wallowing in filth?

These are obviously apostates, ATP.
In case you still don't know what that word means, it means that they had hold of faith, but they lost it.
The chapter starts off by telling us who the audience is, false prophets and false teachers. This verse also explains how they deny Christ. Those who deny the deity of Christ are nonbelievers and are of the antichrist spirit Tit 1:15-16 NIV, 1 John 2:22 NIV, Jude 1:4-7 NIV.

2 Peter 2:3 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are still condemned, but believers in Christ are no longer condemned by God...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV.

2 Pet 2:14 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people never stop sinning, but believers in Christ no longer keep on sinning...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV.

2 Peter 2:17 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are springs without water, but scripture tells us that believers in Christ are springs WITH water...John 4:13-14 NIV, John 7:38-39 NIV, 1 Pet 3:21 NIV, Rev 7:17 NIV, Rev 21:6 NIV, Rev 22:1-2 NIV, Rev 22:17 NIV.

2 Peter 2:20 NIV Escaped / Just like any man that escapes sin. If he's an alcoholic then he will stop going to the liquor store, but not going to the liquor store doesn't cleanse you of your addiction. Only the free gift of salvation can do that and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The word "escaped" here in Greek is apopheugó, which means to flee from. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world,.... The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said (q),
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
ATP said:
You had said John 6:47 is figurative language. That is false Barrd.
Obviously you did not read the entire post.
I don't know why I even waste my time with you, I honestly don't.

As you probably know, there are Catholics who firmly believe that the bread and wine actually do become real flesh and blood...an idea that makes me nauseous. Of course, I believe that He was talking figuratively.

If you can't figure out that I was referring to the idea that the bread and wine were actually real flesh and blood, there is no more to say.
I know you can read, ATP....you carefully read every word that other OSASers type.
Is it just me you pull this silly charade with?
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
The Barrd said:
Obviously you did not read the entire post.
I don't know why I even waste my time with you, I honestly don't.

As you probably know, there are Catholics who firmly believe that the bread and wine actually do become real flesh and blood...an idea that makes me nauseous. Of course, I believe that He was talking figuratively.

If you can't figure out that I was referring to the idea that the bread and wine were actually real flesh and blood, there is no more to say.
I know you can read, ATP....you carefully read every word that other OSASers type.
Is it just me you pull this silly charade with?
Good, now that we have it settled, once we believe we have eternal life Barrd. Justification only comes once. What are we believing in Barrd Rom 10:9-10 NIV, John 6:47 NIV?
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
ATP said:
The chapter starts off by telling us who the audience is, false prophets and false teachers. This verse also explains how they deny Christ. Those who deny the deity of Christ are nonbelievers and are of the antichrist spirit Tit 1:15-16 NIV, 1 John 2:22 NIV, Jude 1:4-7 NIV.

2 Peter 2:3 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are still condemned, but believers in Christ are no longer condemned by God...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV.

2 Pet 2:14 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people never stop sinning, but believers in Christ no longer keep on sinning...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV.

2 Peter 2:17 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are springs without water, but scripture tells us that believers in Christ are springs WITH water...John 4:13-14 NIV, John 7:38-39 NIV, 1 Pet 3:21 NIV, Rev 7:17 NIV, Rev 21:6 NIV, Rev 22:1-2 NIV, Rev 22:17 NIV.

2 Peter 2:20 NIV Escaped / Just like any man that escapes sin. If he's an alcoholic then he will stop going to the liquor store, but not going to the liquor store doesn't cleanse you of your addiction. Only the free gift of salvation can do that and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The word "escaped" here in Greek is apopheugó, which means to flee from. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world,.... The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said (q),
First of all, I don't recognize Gill, whoever he is, as any kind of authority. Why should I? Did he walk with Jesus? Is his name anywhere in the Bible?
Second, yes, I realize that these people are false teachers....but evidently, at one time, they did have real faith, because the scripture says that they had known the way of righteousness, but they turned from the holy commandment.
There is only one way to escape from our sins, ATP....and that is through the Son of God.
Those comparisons show that they had been purged....but like the dog returning to it's vomit, they went back to their sin.
They had been washed clean....but like a whitewashed pig will return to her filth, they went back to their sin.

None of those other verses have anything to do with this scripture, nor do I intend to waste the next hour or so looking them up for you, since by this time it is obvious that any such effort on my part is wasted.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
rockytopva said:
As this doctrine came out of the Sardisean church age so the Lord gave his two cent in on this one...

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." - Revelation 3:5

So scripturally eternal security is granted to him 'who overcometh.' In which the Lord repeats over and over in scripture...

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. - Matthew 10:22
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Mark 13:13
Augustine was among the first to affirm this doctrine...perseverance of the saints...

Also I am not in disagreement. Those who are saved are those who endure to the end. Those who endure to the end are those who are saved.

God does not save, nor does He begin saving those who do not endure to the end...this is why one can not "lose their salvation".
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
2 Pet 2:8-9 NIV - This verse clearly separates the righteous from the lawless, and scripture clearly states that believers are no longer condemned as lawless. We are no longer of the antichrist spirit 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, 2 Thess 2:7-9 NIV, Heb 10:17 NIV, 2 Pet 2:7-8 NIV.
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
ATP said:
Good, now that we have it settled, once we believe we have eternal life Barrd. Justification only comes once. What are we believing in Barrd Rom 10:9-10 NIV, John 6:47 NIV?
Well, I don't know about you, but I've spent the last 53 years of my life following a Jewish carpenter called Jesus the Christ.

He sent me an angel when I had been mauled by a dog and bled to death....yes, I was pronounced DOA...maybe if you are very good I will tell you the story sometime. Then again, maybe I'll save it for someone who might actually read it.

He took my epilepsy from me. I'm sure I've mentioned this once or twice in these threads.

I came to Him as a child of 12, and though I have learned much since then, I have never allowed anyone to come between us...although I did tell you once about the time I nearly did just that....but you have probably forgotten, if you even did bother to read what I had posted. Too bad, because I'm not going to parade my sin for all to mock at again. It is enough that I sinned, and He chastised me.

I have never given much attention to web sites, or scholars, or preachers, or things like "doctrines" or "exegesis" or "hermeneutics" or "soteriology"...nor do I intend to start now. For most of my life, Jesus Himself has been enough for me, and I see no reason to change that. From what I've seen folks who do mind such things can't agree among themselves, anyway, so evidently, they are no better off.

You ask me what I am believing in, and my answer is simple. One word will do it.
What am I believing in? Jesus.