The Doctrine of OSAS

[ATP]

I know the passages are there and yet I don't believe in OSAS.

Because your heart is closed buddy. You made up your mind a long long time ago.

 

[ATP]

More inferences. How do you know they are correct inferences?

You've taken three passages of Scripture out of context. None of these are talking about whether or not salvation can be lost. Let me ask a question, If you want to know to know how to use a computer program do you go get the repair manual for your car? If not, then why post passages that don't deal with the subject in an attempt to prove the subject?

What does scripture mean when they say "the seed" or "God's seed"?

 

[justaname]

Not at all. I've posted passages and early church quotes showing that salvation can be lost and that this was the original teaching in the church. However, it wouldn't matter how much evidence I posted you guys would simply reject it. You're holding to your irrational arguments not matter what evidence is presented. This is what Oz was talking about in another thread when he said it's not possible to have a conversation when people are being illogical. He's right. You see there is not a single passage of Scripture that says salvation cannot be lost. Therefore you guys have to draw conclusions from inference. Do you guys not think we know of the passages you post? I know the passages are there and yet I don't believe in OSAS. That means I understand those passages differently that you guys do. The inferences you guys draw are not necessary inferences and in many cases not rational one, thus they are logical fallacies. However, it seems to me that you guys won't even recognize the fallacies. You guys post these passages as if your inferences are Scripture. This basically sets you up as the ultimate authority, thus anyone who says something different is simply wrong. However, the bottom line is that one cannot come to truth through illogical and irrational reasoning.

I have not seen one passage that states or shows "salvation can be lost". You would first have to prove God intended on saving said person, then you would have to prove that person superseded God's will and authority.

Neither have I seen any post from anyone that supports the idea the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is gnostic in it's roots.

The floor is yours my friend...and remember no inferences...

 

[Butch5]

Because your heart is closed buddy. You made up your mind a long long time ago.

How do you know my heart? You're espousing a doctrine that doesn't have a single verse of Scripture. In addition you're using irrational arguments laced with logical fallacies and you're saying my heart is closed? Hmm....

 

[ATP]

How do you know my heart? You're espousing a doctrine that doesn't have a single verse of Scripture. In addition you're using irrational arguments laced with logical fallacies and you're saying my heart is closed? Hmm....

What does scripture mean when they say "the seed" or "God's seed"? And why is this seed imperishable. Butch.

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[Barrd]

I see I did not word the first question bullet proof...

That would have been a loaded question. Of course, there could be only one answer.
I would have told you that your premise was false. Obviously, not every apostate remains apostate till he dies.

It is your In My Opinion I am interested in here really...

I can't imagine why. I've told you that I'm no scholar. I wasn't lying to you, Justaname. I really did come to Christ as a girl of twelve, through a Bible my Grandma gave me for Christmas that year.
And I really am about to celebrate my 65th birthday....my age is not hidden. You can check my profile.
Obviously, I've done other reading since then. I did a lot of research for my magnum opus....a book entitled "The First Sinner"...but you aren't interested in all that. Just wanted you to know....I was not being dishonest with you. I've no reason to be.

Here is how Paul explains the process...

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

What I want you to zero in on is that we are sealed with a view to the redemption of God's own possession.

Obviously.

Here is the KJV...

3 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

This is stating the Holy Spirit is the guarantee or down payment or the signed deed or signed title of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. Purchased possession meaning the believer purchased through the blood of Christ.

Well, not quite.
"Earnest money" is not the full down payment...it is only a partial payment, to hold the property so that the Realtor will not sell it to anyone else before the buyer can complete the loan process. It is not exactly the signed title....it is more of a promise to purchase at a later date.
At least, that's the way it worked when I bought my little Poor Widow's Shack here in Alabama.

To keep things in context...this is the section just before this. Listen to the language carefully...

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
9 He amade known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Why did you leave the KJV?
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

That word "predestinated" bothers me. If God truly predestined a few people to be saved, that would mean that He purposely created the vast majority of people to suffer the torments of hell through eternity, which would make Him not a God of love, but a cruel monster...a psychotic child, torturing his pets just for the fun of it.

My Strongs defines the word translated as "predestinated" in this way:

G4309 (Strong)

προορίζω

proorizō

pro-or-id'-zo

From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

Total KJV occurrences: 6

So, evidently, this term could simply mean that God knew in advance, which isn't the same thing at all.
Still, I will freely admit that this passage makes me feel uncomfortable.
And then I remember that Paul is a Jewish lawyer....and he often writes like a Jewish lawyer.
That is why Paul says that there are some things in his letters that are hard to understand...and please don't be offended, Justaname....there will be those who are unstable and unlearned who will wrest those scriptures to their own destruction. Now, remembering that Peter was a hick from the sticks....an uneducated fisherman who spoke with a heavy Galilean accent, one highly doubts if he meant "book larnin'". I would say that he meant the kind of learning one received from the mouth of Christ, Himself...not the kind of learning Paul had received from his teacher, the great Gamilael...which, as we know, didn't do him much good when it came to understanding Who Jesus was.

In this context it would not seem Paul nor God had a caveat in mind... where would you gather such a notion? To be clear I want to keep this question to this context. That would mean do not bring your preconceived notions to this portion of the text...

And now, my dear brother, you are being quite unfair. Your remark that neither Paul nor God had a caveat in mind is pure inference...the text does not say any such thing.
And that would mean....do not bring YOUR preconceived notions to this portion of the text.

 

[Barrd]

I have not seen one passage that states or shows "salvation can be lost". You would first have to prove God intended on saving said person, then you would have to prove that person superseded God's will and authority.

Neither have I seen any post from anyone that supports the idea the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is gnostic in it's roots.

The floor is yours my friend...and remember no inferences...

I'm sure Butch will not mind if I borrow his floor for a second....I'm little, I won't hurt it much...

Here is a verse you might have to think about for at least a minute, Hun:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

The Spirit has to be the Holy Spirit (is that an inference?)....and the Spirit says that some shall depart from the faith.

Now, I may not be the brightest bulb in the box...but even I can figure out that, in order to depart from the faith, they had to have had faith to depart from.
??

 

[ATP]

That word "predestinated" bothers me.

Predestination refers to conforming to Christ after salvation, not before. I know, it bothers me too. Everyone has free will to come to faith in Christ...https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/784-ephesians-1-4-predestination

 

[Barrd]

Predestination refers to conforming to Christ after salvation, not before. I know, it bothers me too. Everyone has free will to come to faith in Christ...https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/784-ephesians-1-4-predestination

How about that, ATP...
Not only do we find ourselves in agreement....which has to be a first for you and me....
But you took me to a web site where I learned something new.

There really are such things as miracles...

 

[rockytopva]

I think it best to let the Spirit of God justify us, and not some man made doctrine...

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of God.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[justaname]

That would have been a loaded question. Of course, there could be only one answer.
I would have told you that your premise was false. Obviously, not every apostate remains apostate till he dies.


I can't imagine why. I've told you that I'm no scholar. I wasn't lying to you, Justaname. I really did come to Christ as a girl of twelve, through a Bible my Grandma gave me for Christmas that year.
And I really am about to celebrate my 65th birthday....my age is not hidden. You can check my profile.
Obviously, I've done other reading since then. I did a lot of research for my magnum opus....a book entitled "The First Sinner"...but you aren't interested in all that. Just wanted you to know....I was not being dishonest with you. I've no reason to be.

Obviously.


Well, not quite.
"Earnest money" is not the full down payment...it is only a partial payment, to hold the property so that the Realtor will not sell it to anyone else before the buyer can complete the loan process. It is not exactly the signed title....it is more of a promise to purchase at a later date.
At least, that's the way it worked when I bought my little Poor Widow's Shack here in Alabama.

Well actually the possession is paid in full, by the blood of Christ. Unless you don't believe this. So again it is more like saying I will pick up at a later date what is paid in full.

Why did you leave the KJV?

Because no one translation is inspired or infallible.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

That word "predestinated" bothers me. If God truly predestined a few people to be saved, that would mean that He purposely created the vast majority of people to suffer the torments of hell through eternity, which would make Him not a God of love, but a cruel monster...a psychotic child, torturing his pets just for the fun of it.

This is where you are wrong. I covered this in the post you didn't read...I will copy/paste that section for ya.

This is why you truly have a problem with the doctrine, it is this idea you have blinding you to the truth of the doctrine. This gets to the heart of the issue for you.

My Strongs defines the word translated as "predestinated" in this way:

G4309 (Strong)

προορίζω

proorizō

pro-or-id'-zo

From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

Total KJV occurrences: 6

So, evidently, this term could simply mean that God knew in advance, which isn't the same thing at all.

This is what I have been saying all along though. God knows in advance who are His. He does not attempt to save anyone, just for that someone to squirm away and Him say, "OH lost another one." Only those He saves are saved, are being saved, and inherit salvation to begin with. These are the only ones to be sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Still, I will freely admit that this passage makes me feel uncomfortable.
And then I remember that Paul is a Jewish lawyer....and he often writes like a Jewish lawyer.
That is why Paul says that there are some things in his letters that are hard to understand...and please don't be offended, Justaname....there will be those who are unstable and unlearned who will wrest those scriptures to their own destruction. Now, remembering that Peter was a hick from the sticks....an uneducated fisherman who spoke with a heavy Galilean accent, one highly doubts if he meant "book larnin'". I would say that he meant the kind of learning one received from the mouth of Christ, Himself...not the kind of learning Paul had received from his teacher, the great Gamilael...which, as we know, didn't do him much good when it came to understanding Who Jesus was.

And now, my dear brother, you are being quite unfair. Your remark that neither Paul nor God had a caveat in mind is pure inference...the text does not say any such thing.
And that would mean....do not bring YOUR preconceived notions to this portion of the text.

I said it does not "seem" like God nor Paul had a caveat in mind. In other words I do not read that caveat in there, nor is there evidence for it, why would you?

 

[justaname]

I'm sure Butch will not mind if I borrow his floor for a second....I'm little, I won't hurt it much...

Here is a verse you might have to think about for at least a minute, Hun:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

The Spirit has to be the Holy Spirit (is that an inference?)....and the Spirit says that some shall depart from the faith.

Now, I may not be the brightest bulb in the box...but even I can figure out that, in order to depart from the faith, they had to have had faith to depart from.
??

If we are being told in advance they will not be saved, how can they lose their salvation? We already know they will not be saved...

Depart from the faith=leave the visible Church.

 

[OzSpen]

The posting is directed to justaname I do believe, of which justaname responded and I responded so on and so forth.
If you want to take exception to anything stated in the posting you seem to have a problem with, then maybe you should show why the statements aren’t true in your view. Then we might have something to discuss or argue. Otherwise it seems you’ve got some expectations that don’t meet your approval, of which I don’t believe I, or anyone else here, have any obligation to fulfill.

DP,

When you make a post on a forum, although it might be addressed to a particular person, that does not limit the number of people who respond. I received notification of your response in my email box, so I considered it was worthy of a response.

When I state that you made a claim without evidence, that is a situation that should be rectified by you, not me.

So are you saying you have no obligation to provide evidence for the claims you make that I showed to be claims without evidence?

If that's the case, you are correct. You have no obligation to provide evidence for what you are claiming, but it makes for mundane conversation.

Oz

 

[Butch5]

I have not seen one passage that states or shows "salvation can be lost". You would first have to prove God intended on saving said person, then you would have to prove that person superseded God's will and authority.

Neither have I seen any post from anyone that supports the idea the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is gnostic in it's roots.

The floor is yours my friend...and remember no inferences...

Nice, but as I said, there's not a single passage that say salvation can't be lost. What point is there for me to attempt to refute an inference?

11 But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry,
12 having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not.
14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some have already turned aside after Satan.
(1 Tim. 5:11-15 NKJ)

Origen, Origen de Principiis.book 3 chapter 1 section 8


8. Let us begin, then, with what is said about Pharaoh—that he was hardened by God, that he might not send away the people; along with which will be examined also the statement of the apostle, “Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.” And certain of those who hold different opinions misuse these passages, themselves also almost destroying free-will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation, and others saved which it is impossible can be lost; and Pharaoh, they say, as being of a ruined nature, is therefore hardened by God, who has mercy upon the spiritual, but hardens the earthly.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

[OzSpen]

The Bible is for everyone.
I do not believe for one minute that God meant His Word to be understood only by people with seminary degrees....
It is for simple people....like fishermen, and carpenters, and tentmakers, and housewives.
God, in His Word, doesn't use words like "exegesis", or "hermenuetics"....He simply says "come unto Me, all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest"...

The Barrd,

But the Bible does include words like propitiation (1 John 2:2), justification (Rom 5:1), etc.

However, if we need to understand the local newspaper or the Bible, we need to engage in proper exegesis and not eisegesis. If we don't follow principles of legitimate hermeneutics, the reading of any book could become a postmodern invention. Ah, there's another one of those forbidden words - postmodern. Postmodern and modernistic hermeneutics are ruining many churches. Now, that would be a reasonable topic to start: 'How can postmodernism destroy your church?'

There are many words, concepts and philosophies that are not in ordinary lingo, but they are evident in our societies.

As for the Bible being for everyone, I agree. That's why I enjoy the New Living Translation for everyday reading. But I don't use it as a text for solid exegesis.

Oz

 

[justaname]

Barrd,


Your quote tonight:

That word "predestinated" bothers me. If God truly predestined a few people to be saved, that would mean that He purposely created the vast majority of people to suffer the torments of hell through eternity, which would make Him not a God of love, but a cruel monster...a psychotic child, torturing his pets just for the fun of it.


My previous response:
No. That would be double predestination. God knows the final destination of everyone be it heaven or hell because He is omniscient. Everyone ever born is apportioned to God's plan for His glory, not because of fate but because of their personal choices through this life. Some will accept the gospel and God knows who will. Some will reject the gospel and God knows who will. Some will hear a twisted version of the gospel while others will never have a chance to hear the gospel at all. God knows who all of these are also. In His infinite wisdom God created all of this, in full knowledge of the circumstances and outcomes of everyone. Again God is omniscient, all knowing.
God knows/knew all the possibilities of every form of creation with every possible variable conceivable. God chose this exact creation to bring about His glory, with the Lamb being slain before the foundations of the world. All of creation points to God and proclaims His glory. God is glorified showing His justice for those who go to hell. God is glorified showing His mercy for those who inherit the Kingdom. God is not culpable for anyone who goes to hell, because that is what we all deserve, due to sin. Man is in a state of total depravity where sin has been passed down through Adam unto everyone today.

 

[justaname]

Nice, but as I said, there's not a single passage that say salvation can't be lost. What point is there for me to attempt to refute an inference?

11 But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry,
12 having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not.
14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some have already turned aside after Satan.
(1 Tim. 5:11-15 NKJ)

Origen, Origen de Principiis.book 3 chapter 1 section 8


8. Let us begin, then, with what is said about Pharaoh—that he was hardened by God, that he might not send away the people; along with which will be examined also the statement of the apostle, “Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.” And certain of those who hold different opinions misuse these passages, themselves also almost destroying free-will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation, and others saved which it is impossible can be lost; and Pharaoh, they say, as being of a ruined nature, is therefore hardened by God, who has mercy upon the spiritual, but hardens the earthly.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

Which one of these say salvation can be lost?

Here is the NIV translation for the 1 Timothy passage...

As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.

I don't see loss of salvation here...must be an inference you are making...

Then you give me a quote from Origen who was deemed a heretic? Weird...How does this prove the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints has its roots in gnosticism?

 

[OzSpen]

They fell away because they did not have the root of salvation Oz.




No Oz, we are only justified once. Sanctification is the on going process...

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Heb 6:4-6 says not a word about their having no root. That's an imposition on the text that seems to fit with your OSAS view of soteriology.

Those who are justified are those who continue to believe. Sanctification is progressive after salvation but justification does not guarantee that one will not commit apostasy by repudiating the faith. It's too late to ask Charles Templeton about that.

In Romans 10:9-10, what is the Greek tense and meaning for 'believe'?

 

[justaname]

I think it best to let the Spirit of God justify us, and not some man made doctrine...

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of God.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Yet we have the doctrine of justification...

I think we all agree it is the Spirit of God that justifies.

 

[ATP]

I'm sure Butch will not mind if I borrow his floor for a second....I'm little, I won't hurt it much...

Here is a verse you might have to think about for at least a minute, Hun:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

The Spirit has to be the Holy Spirit (is that an inference?)....and the Spirit says that some shall depart from the faith.

Now, I may not be the brightest bulb in the box...but even I can figure out that, in order to depart from the faith, they had to have had faith to depart from.
??

Go to the Greek Barrd. It'll give you the answer...some shall depart from the faith, not saving faith.."departed" in 1 Tim 4:1-2 NIV is translated "aphistémi" which means to lead away, to depart from. Also notice in Luke 8:13 NIV the same word "aphistémi" is used for the term "fall away". Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation...

Luke 8:13 NIV Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Also notice it's mentioning two different people here, those who forbid people to etc...and those who believe and who know the truth.

1 Tim 4:1-3 NIV The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

I hope this helps, - ATP