The Doctrine of OSAS

[OzSpen]

Augustine was among the first to affirm this doctrine...perseverance of the saints...

Also I am not in disagreement. Those who are saved are those who endure to the end. Those who endure to the end are those who are saved.

God does not save, nor does He begin saving those who do not endure to the end...this is why one can not "lose their salvation".

I'm also in agreement, but it was not Augustine who was among the first to affirm this doctrine. It was from Jesus himself who stated, 'But the one who endures to the end will be saved' (Matt 24:13 ESV).

 

[Barrd]

Hebrews 6:4 is the most difficult passage to reconcile concerning the "loss of salvation" issue, so for now I will only address this one.

The text infers that believers can apostatize. What I see is the concern of expressed followers of Christ returning to Judaism. As they are enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly gift, and been made partakers of the Holy Spirt, it is difficult to deny a regenerate state, although some still do.

As before mentioned I had a Hebrews class where the professor did His doctorate on this book. His contention is the continual theme in the book of Hebrews of the nation people of Israel wandering through the desert being the people alluded to here and a simile being drawn. The wanderers were enlightened through the knowledge of God; the heavenly gift being the manna from heaven; and the Holy Spirit being the cloud by day and fire by night. These then are the true subject being spoken of..."For in the case of those"...

This is a strong case and shows validity still allowing for a natural reading of the text. Those reading the text would relate as it is a reoccurring theme, the wandering nation people, throughout the book.

Yet my contention has never been inability of apostasy, rather apostasy is the evidence of the lack of saving faith. From God's perspective the apostate was never in His plan for salvation. This then still affirms the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. God in His omniscience only "saves" those who are His. This to me invalidates the term "lose your salvation".

It is also possible the author is concerned not of the entire group apostatizing, rather is attempting to strengthen the waning portion. "Partakers" can then mean those who are surrounded by believers that will not apostatize, thus affiliated with the visible Church.

Bible Knowledge Commentary:

6:4–6. This passage has been interpreted in four ways: (1) that the danger of a Christian losing his salvation is described, a view rejected because of biblical assurances that salvation is a work of God which cannot be reversed; (2) that the warning is against mere profession of faith short of salvation, or tasting but not really partaking of salvation (The New Scofield Reference Bible, p. 1315); (3) that hypothetically if a Christian could lose his salvation, there is no provision for repentance (The Ryrie Study Bible, p. 1736); (4) that a warning is given of the danger of a Christian moving from a position of true faith and life to the extent of becoming disqualified for further service (1 Cor. 9:27) and for inheriting millennial glory. The latter is the interpretation adopted here.


Here though is the redeeming factor concerning this pericope...

9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,
12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


Here the fear is removed and the assurance is built again in the hearts of the believers. This portion directs the readers attention to what is called the "full assurance of hope", to not be sluggish, and to be imitators of those with great faith. It possible the author uses these strong words as a means of exhortation to stir fear in the hearts of those contemplating returning to Judaism, then confirms their assurance of perseverance. This in no way is a lie because this is the true outcome of the apostate, yet the author is convinced of better things.

Now, it seems to me that, if there could be a fear that believers might be contemplating returning to Judaism, the writer thinks there may be a possibility that they might do so.

Also, if you color the scriptures with your belief that God has pre-chosen each one who will be saved, thus negating any free will the believer may have, of course you will not see any possibility that a believer might fall from grace and be lost.
But then...if God has pre-chosen His elect, then why bother to preach the gospel to the lost in the first place?
Why didn't He start choosing people before the missionaries risked life and limb to bring the gospel to them?



No...the God you paint just doesn't sound at all like the God of the Bible....

 

[OzSpen]

I Googled your Bema seat.
This is what I found:

The concept of the Bema Seat comes from the ancient Olympics, where a judge would sit on the Bema Seat at the finish line. The judge's purpose was to determine what position the runners came in-first, second, and so on-and then to give out the appropriate rewards. That is the imagery behind what is known as the Bema Seat.

http://www.allaboutgod.com/bema-seat.htm

And I have another question for you.
Who were Hymenaeus and Alexander?

If you read Rom 14:10 (Interlinear) and 2 Cor 5:10 (Interlinear), you will find that the Greek bema is used to refer to the judgment seat. It is also used in the Gospels and Book of Acts to refer to the platform where a Roman magistrate or ruler sat to pass sentence (see Matt 27:19; John 19:13). I'd recommend a read of the article, 'The Doctrine of Rewards: The Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ' (bible.org).

Oz

 

[Barrd]

If you read Rom 14:10 (Interlinear) and 2 Cor 5:10 (Interlinear), you will find that the Greek bema is used to refer to the judgment seat. It is also used in the Gospels and Book of Acts to refer to the platform where a Roman magistrate or ruler sat to pass sentence (see Matt 27:19; John 19:13). I'd recommend a read of the article, 'The Doctrine of Rewards: The Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ' (bible.org).

Oz

I'm going to let you in on a little secret.
I really don't care about rewards. If I should win some, fine, if not, fine.
I will be content just to be in the presence of my Lord and my God. Nothing else matters but getting close enough to Him to touch Him. I have a longing to see Him and to be near Him.
No crown could ever compare to the privilege of just being with Him.

 

[OzSpen]

I have not seen one passage that states or shows "salvation can be lost". You would first have to prove God intended on saving said person, then you would have to prove that person superseded God's will and authority.

Neither have I seen any post from anyone that supports the idea the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is gnostic in it's roots.

The floor is yours my friend...and remember no inferences...

I think this is erecting a straw man fallacy, i.e. stating a position that does not relate to the content of the original post. I've provided you with examples from Heb 6:4-6; 1 Tim 1:19 and 2 Pet 2:20-21 of how salvation can be lost. You don't accept that understanding, but many do support the hermeneutics I used.

Let's use another example, that of the Trinity. There is no direct statement in Scripture that says, 'the God of creation revealed in Scripture is Trinitarian'. However, I can take various Scriptures to demonstrate that God is a unity but there are three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - who are each God. This God is a plurality in unity, known as the Trinity.

I use the same approach when establishing that salvation can be lost because Christians fall away from or shipwreck their faith.

Oz

 

[justaname]

I think this is erecting a straw man fallacy, i.e. stating a position that does not relate to the content of the original post. I've provided you with examples from Heb 6:4-6; 1 Tim 1:19 and 2 Pet 2:20-21 of how salvation can be lost. You don't accept that understanding, but many do support the hermeneutics I used.

Let's use another example, that of the Trinity. There is no direct statement in Scripture that says, 'the God of creation revealed in Scripture is Trinitarian'. However, I can take various Scriptures to demonstrate that God is a unity but there are three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - who are each God. This God is a plurality in unity, known as the Trinity.

I use the same approach when establishing that salvation can be lost because Christians fall away from or shipwreck their faith.

Oz

Oz,

We are in greater agreement here than you might think. This is actually the tactic of the poster being used against him if that makes sense...

Although with all fairness to my position I am certain we agree all interpretations come with some sort of bias to the text. As an example we do not interpret a text without applying God's attributes and or nature. We will not interpret a text in a manner that Goes against either of these.

I submit God's omniscience. God is also logical.

Then I ask the question, does God have intention of saving anyone He knows will go apostate?

 

[justaname]

Now, it seems to me that, if there could be a fear that believers might be contemplating returning to Judaism, the writer thinks there may be a possibility that they might do so.

Also, if you color the scriptures with your belief that God has pre-chosen each one who will be saved, thus negating any free will the believer may have, of course you will not see any possibility that a believer might fall from grace and be lost.
But then...if God has pre-chosen His elect, then why bother to preach the gospel to the lost in the first place?
Why didn't He start choosing people before the missionaries risked life and limb to bring the gospel to them?



No...the God you paint just doesn't sound at all like the God of the Bible....

If you read closely that last post I do not entirely dismiss apostasy...

God uses people to preach the gospel because that is the means He uses for salvation, "how can the believe if they have not heard?"

Truly this does fit the God of the Bible, just not how you seem to want to interpret Him...

 

[OzSpen]

I'm sure Butch will not mind if I borrow his floor for a second....I'm little, I won't hurt it much...

Here is a verse you might have to think about for at least a minute, Hun:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

The Spirit has to be the Holy Spirit (is that an inference?)....and the Spirit says that some shall depart from the faith.

Now, I may not be the brightest bulb in the box...but even I can figure out that, in order to depart from the faith, they had to have had faith to depart from.
??

That is very perceptive, Barrd, to raise this critical verse.

Gordon Fee, in his commentary on 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, wrote of 1 Tim 4:1:

'In later times refers to their present situation. The early church had long before seen the advent of the Spirit as the beginning of the End. Paul himself believed, and belonged to a tradition that believed, that the End would be accompanied by a time of intense evil (cf. 2 Thess. 2:3-12), including a "falling away" of some of the people of God (see 2 Tim. 3;1; cf. Matt. 24:12; Jude 17-18; 2 Pet. 3;3-7). Thus the present scene was clear evidence for Paul of their living in the later times (the time of the End)' (Fee 1988:98).

Down through the years I have read several other commentators who join Fee in understanding that 'the later times' during which 'some will abandon the faith' started at the time of Pentecost and continue until today. This is in contrast to what many think today when they speak of the latter days as the time immediately preceding the second coming of Christ. Not so in Paul's understanding as he addressed Timothy and the church at Ephesus (1 Tim 1:3). R C H Lenski is one such commentator who understands 'the later times' or 'later seasons' and not meaning 'in the last days' but 'the latter = the whole time between the two advents of Jesus, the whole New Testament era, beginning at Pentecost'. He notes the resemblance of 1 Tim 4;1 with 2 Thess 2 and 'in more of them there would apostasy' and the word for apostasy is the same as that in 2 Thess 2:3 (Lenski 1937:618).

Even a Calvinistic commentator such as William Hendriksen could write of 1 Tim 4:1:

"The Spirit says," that is, "is now saying." To whom was the Spirit speaking? Acts 20:29, 30 leads me to think that the apostle meant "to myself" (perhaps also to others). The Spirit, then, is saying that "in later seasons" - eras of this new dispensation, eras definitely marked out in God's foreknowledge - some will depart or apostatize from the faith (objective sense), the body of redemptive truth, the Christian religion (Hendriksen & Kistemaker 1955:145, emphasis in original).

Hendriksen goes on to explain that half a dozen years after Paul addressed the elders of the churches located in that region where Timothy was labouring (in Ephesus), 'I know that after my departure grievous wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them' (Acts 20). Take a read of Acts 20:29-30.

Oz

Works consulted
Fee, G D 1988. New International Biblical Commentary: 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus. W W Gasque (NT ed.). Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers.

Hendriksen, W & Kistemaker, S J 1955. New Testament Commentary: Thessalonians, the Pastorals, and Hebrews. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Academic.

Lenski, R C H 1937. Commentary on the New Testament: The Interpretation of St. Paul's Epistles to the Colossians, to the Thessalonians, to Timothy, to Titus, and to Philemon. Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers (by arrangement with Augsburg Publishing House).

 

[H. Richard]

To those who believe that Jesus did everything necessary for a person's salvation God has built an Ark for them to go into. I write this as comfort to these. I know that long posts are not wanted so at the dividing line between the body of this post listing supporting scriptures you can stop reading.

I hope this writing is a blessing to everyone that reads it.
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OUR ARK: (Paul’s “in Christ” doctrine) based on 15 scriptures
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2 Cor 1:19-22
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us-- by me, Silvanus, and Timothy-- was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes.
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
21 Now He who establishes us with you ""in Christ"" and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
(NKJ)
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I look at the words ""in Christ"" and think of them in reference to Noah and the flood.
-
Noah was told by God to build an Ark. It was built by human hands (Noah’s hands). The waters of God‘s wrath in the flood did not touch Noah and those with him. Noah, by his choice, obeyed God and went into the Ark he (Noah) had built. --- The waters of the flood were the judgment of God on a sinful world full of sinful people. That does not mean that Noah was sinless. It means Noah believed what God told him.
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Today there is another Ark. It is “”NOT”” built by human hands. It is built by the hands (will) of God. - Man can not go into the Ark that God has built by his own efforts (will). He must be placed in God’s Ark (Jesus) by God (the Holy Spirit). God places a person in the Ark (Jesus) He built when that person places their faith, trust and confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross to save him/her. -- This Ark that God has built carries those in it safely over the sins “THEY” commit in their flesh. Their sins can not touch (condemn) them.
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Jesus Christ is OUR ARK, and just as those in Noah's Ark were kept from the waters of the flood, we who are placed ""in Christ,"" by God, are kept from the judgment of the law. If we are not ""in Christ"" the law condemns us.
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I believe what Paul said when he penned the words ""in Christ."" I also believe that we are placed ""in Christ"" by God. It is an operation (baptism) of the Holy Spirit (God).
-
This is how I see it and I hope you can see it too.
-
Written by Richard Burger
*********
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Selected verses with the words “in Christ” in them.
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Rom 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are ""in Christ"" Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life ""in Christ"" Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
(NKJ)
-
It is not that we no longer live and sin in the flesh, it is that since we are in Christ we are walking in the Spirit (faith in Jesus’ work on the cross) and have no confidence in our flesh. Walking in the Spirit is the same as walking (having confidence) in the work of Christ on the cross.
-
Eph 1:10
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things ""in Christ,"" both which are in heaven and which are on earth-- ""in Him.""
(NKJ)
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When we are placed “in Christ” by the holy Spirit we are holy and without blame because He loves us and covers our sins of the flesh with His blood shed on the cross.
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Psalms 23
1 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters.
3 He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; My cup runs over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me All the days of my life; And I will dwell in the house of the Lord Forever.
NKJV
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In verse 4 the shadow of death is the condemnation of the Law. In verse 5 the enemy is Satan.
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Rom 12:5
5 so we, being many, are one body ""in Christ,"" and individually members of one another.
(NKJ)
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Rom 16:7
7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were ""in Christ"" before me.
(NKJ)
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1 Cor 1:28-31
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are ""in Christ"" Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
(NKJ)
-
1 Cor 3:1
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes ""in Christ.""
(NKJ)
-
1 Cor 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so ""in Christ"" all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
(NKJ)
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2 Cor 5:16-18
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is ""in Christ,"" he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
(NKJ)
-
Gal 3:13-14
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles ""in Christ"" Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(NKJ)
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Gal 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one ""in Christ"" Jesus.
(NKJ)
-
Gal 5:5-6
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For ""in Christ"" Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. (God’s love, not ours)
(NKJ)
-
The love mentioned is God’s love for us. It is our faith working through God’s love.
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Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us ""in Him"" before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
(NKJ)
-
Colossians 2:9-11
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
(Not Legalism but Christ)
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision “””made without hands,””” by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
NKJV
-
Verse 11 does not mean the WE put off the sins of the body. God does that when He puts us “”in Christ”.
-
Written by H. Richard

 

[OzSpen]

If we are being told in advance they will not be saved, how can they lose their salvation? We already know they will not be saved...

Depart from the faith=leave the visible Church.

justaname,

We are talking about 1 Tim 4:1 and what will happen between the first and second advents. Do you understand what the visible church looked like at the time of Paul in the first century? It was nothing like our denominations. It was a house church and ministry participation was like that in 1 Cor 14:26, nothing like a pastoral dominance from the pulpit today.

However, for you to make 'depart from the faith' synonymous with 'leave the visible church' is an imposition on the text of Scripture. To 'leave the faith' is just that - to LEAVE the Christian faith. Read about how it happened in Acts 20 and Col 2. We see how that apostasy will happen according to 2 Thess 2:3.

I'm really disappointed that you have imposed your eternal security view on the text instead of exegeting the text of 1 Tim 4:1 and allowing the text to speak for itself.

Oz

 

[justaname]

justaname,

We are talking about 1 Tim 4:1 and what will happen between the first and second advents. Do you understand what the visible church looked like at the time of Paul in the first century? It was nothing like our denominations. It was a house church and ministry participation was like that in 1 Cor 14:26, nothing like a pastoral dominance from the pulpit today.

However, for you to make 'depart from the faith' synonymous with 'leave the visible church' is an imposition on the text of Scripture. To 'leave the faith' is just that - to LEAVE the Christian faith. Read about how it happened in Acts 20 and Col 2. We see how that apostasy will happen according to 2 Thess 2:3.

I'm really disappointed that you have imposed your eternal security view on the text instead of exegeting the text of 1 Tim 4:1 and allowing the text to speak for itself.

Oz

Would you care to answer the question I posed in my response?

What comes into question is what Paul means behind the statement translated "leave the faith".

Also you are imposing your belief that person possessed faith that was salvific in nature in order to say they lost their salvation. The evidence that they left the faith proved their faith was not because those who are saved abide in Christ

Yet again as I continually contend, perseverance of the saints does not put up a barrier protecting anyone from going apostate. I have never argued this. Many will post opinions of interpretations while I might present an alternative position.

As I think we all agree, everyone who studies the text for some length of time begins to formulate presuppositions. I continually try to view the text from as many views still fitting within my Orthodox Christian worldview using the same hermeneutics conservative scholars use.

This being said I must bow out for some time. I have spent far too much time involved in this matter when the matter of Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek is more deserving of my time.

Shalom for now!

 

[H. Richard]

justaname,

We are talking about 1 Tim 4:1 and what will happen between the first and second advents. Do you understand what the visible church looked like at the time of Paul in the first century? It was nothing like our denominations. It was a house church and ministry participation was like that in 1 Cor 14:26, nothing like a pastoral dominance from the pulpit today.

However, for you to make 'depart from the faith' synonymous with 'leave the visible church' is an imposition on the text of Scripture. To 'leave the faith' is just that - to LEAVE the Christian faith. Read about how it happened in Acts 20 and Col 2. We see how that apostasy will happen according to 2 Thess 2:3.

I'm really disappointed that you have imposed your eternal security view on the text instead of exegeting the text of 1 Tim 4:1 and allowing the text to speak for itself.

Oz

Apostasy started in the fist century when Paul started teaching the gospel of grace.

Doctrinal confusion happened within ONE GENERATION of Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles and dispenser of the mystery. Not 100 years after his death, gross doctrinal distortion had already set in and the Church believed, and practiced a mix of two dispensations, as well as things not even found in the Bible.
-
One thing is certain from what I’ve read -- the Asian fathers largely failed to acknowledge the uniqueness of the revelation Christ gave to Paul. Why? Because, as Paul himself wrote, Asia had already turned away from him even while he was yet alive. Those in Asia were even then “turning aside unto myths.” These church “fathers,” with their compounded mythical doctrines, are only the fruit of the apostasy that began in the first century before Paul died.
-
2 Tim 1:15
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
(NKJ)
-
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
-
This is exactly what happened: from among the Gentile believers of Asia, false teachers DID arise, DID speak perverse things and DID draw away disciples unto themselves. All within 100 years of Paul's death and these apostate teachings are still with us today.
-
Written by H. Richard

 

[ATP]

Humor me then, Justaname...answer just this one scripture for me before I say goodnight:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

26 - If we deliberately keep on sinning - This refers to nonbelievers, not believers. Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV.

26 - the knowledge of the truth - Nonbelievers are known to have the knowledge of God, the knowledge of truth, or knowing God but not accepting His salvation Rom 1:18 NIV, Rom 1:25 NIV, Rom 1:28 NIV, 1 Tim 6:20 NIV, 2 Pet 2:20 NIV

26 - no sacrifice for sins is left - For starters, how can there be no sacrifice for sins left when Jesus sacrificed it all and paid the penalty for ALL sin, past, present and future Isa 53:4-6 NIV, Isa 53:10 NIV, John 1:29 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 10:12 NIV, 1 John 2:12 NIV, Rev 1:4-5 NIV. We can see the author confirming that Jesus is in fact greater than Moses in Heb 3:5-6 NIV, Heb 7:11-14 NIV, Heb 9:19-23 NIV.

Also, in the Mosaic Covenant the Jews would sacrifice animals on the alter as a blood covenant for the forgiveness of sins. Moses in his covenant took from the offerings half of the blood and put it in bowls and the other half he sprinkled on the altar. He read to the people the book of the covenant and once again they all responded, "All that the LORD has said we will do" (Ex.24:7). Hearing once more their pledge of obedience to the Lord, Moses sprinkled the people with the blood, saying, ‘"This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words"’ (Ex.24:8). This was a very solemn moment in their national history, for with this sprinkling of the blood and their promise to be obedient, the covenant was ratified and they were sanctified as the people of God (Heb.9:19,20; Heb.10:29). As His people, they would be governed by Him according to the commandments and statutes that He had given to them.

27 - but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. - This entire passage literally describes the wrath of God, but scripture says believers are not appointed to wrath Dan 12:1 NIV, Matt 24:21-22 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV, Rev 3:10 NIV. Scripture also states that believers are no longer enemies of God, rather we are His children Nahum 1:2 NIV, Rom 5:10 NIV, Rom 8:31 NIV, Rom 11:28 NIV, Col 1:21-22 NIV

28 - Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy - The author here is simply using familiar language, since he is also describing the Mosaic Covenant in verse 26-27.

29 - who has trampled the Son of God under foot - This phrase works off of Daniels vision in Dan 8:13 NIV. When Daniel uses this phrase he is describing the Antichrist during the Abomination of Desolation! We also see this term describing dogs and pigs in Matt 7:6 NIV.

29 - who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him - Now, why would the author here speak of the Mosaic Covenant in verse 26,27,28 and then suddenly switch covenants in one passage? That doesn't make sense. What makes sense is the author using familiar language, similar to verse 26 where he says "there is no sacrifice for sins left". Verse 26 and 29 both speak of this blood covenant that Moses used to sanctify his people. Also notice verse 29 says "who has" TWICE. Why would the author use the term "who has" to describe an antichrist term as in (nonbelievers) and then in the same passage describe the Grace covenant?

29 - and who has insulted the Spirit of grace - The term "Spirit of grace" describes the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit has always been at work in Israel and with God's people, seal or no seal. Also, why would a believer in Christ ever insult the Holy Spirit? I can't find one scripture that can prove a born again believer would ever insult the Holy Spirit.

The idea alone is absurd. A believer is thankful for what God has done for them! To insult God is to deny His deity Jude 1:4 NIV, and it's impossible for a believer to stop believing in His deity because the Holy Spirit already marked the believer with God's seal John 6:27 NIV, John 17:26 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 9:2 NIV, 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV, 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV, 1 John 2:27 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV, Jude 1:1 NIV, Rev 9:4 NIV.

- ATP

 

[ATP]

Who are the elect? They are those who continue in the faith (John 3:16 and all other verses where pisteuo (I believe) is present or perfect tense in the Greek.

No Oz. The elect are those who have accepted Christ by grace through faith Eph 2:8-9 NIV. We are only justified once. What do they mean here by "the seed" or "God's seed", and why is this seed imperishable...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

 

[ATP]

Rom 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are ""in Christ"" Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life ""in Christ"" Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
(NKJ)

Amen. So simple.

 

[ATP]

We are talking about 1 Tim 4:1

Some shall depart from the faith, not saving faith.."departed" in 1 Tim 4:1-2 NIV is translated "aphistémi" which means to lead away, to depart from. Also notice in Luke 8:13 NIV the same word "aphistémi" is used for the term "fall away". Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation...

Luke 8:13 NIV Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Also notice it's mentioning two different people here, those who forbid people to etc...and those who believe and who know the truth.

1 Tim 4:1-3 NIV The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

- ATP

 

[H. Richard]

Amen. So simple.

Rom 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are ""in Christ"" Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life ""in Christ"" Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
(NKJ)

Many read this and say that when a person sins they are living in the flesh and in so doing they are condemned by their sin. Living in the Spirit means that a person is always conscience of the fact the Jesus' shed blood has already paid for their sins of the flesh. They can not be condemned by the actions of the flesh (Romans 7). To live in the flesh is to live thinking that the person is subject to the flesh. There are many that believe what they do in religion (do in the flesh) will save them.

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

We do not wash ourselves, we do not sanctify ourselves, we do not justify ourselves. All these things are done by God when a person believes Jesus' work on the cross has paid for their salvation. In other words, when they believe in Paul's gospel that Jesus gave him.

H. Richard

 

[Barrd]

In other words, when they believe in Paul's gospel that Jesus gave him.

Of course.
Why even bother reading the words of Christ, recorded in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?
Why bother with the letters written by James, or Peter, or John, or Jude?

We don't need anyone but Paul.

You guys give me a headache.

 

[H. Richard]

Of course.
Why even bother reading the words of Christ, recorded in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?
Why bother with the letters written by James, or Peter, or John, or Jude?

We don't need anyone but Paul.

You guys give me a headache.

According to Jesus' own words He did not come but to the house of Israel.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
-
Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
-
Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Since Jesus said it I believe it. Jesus did not come to offer the promised Jewish kingdom to the Gentles. People make a profound mistake to teach what was said to the Jews who were under the law of Moses in the grace church. No where do we see Jesus or the 11 teaching that mankind is no longer under the law of Moses but Paul said we are not under the law of Moses. We are under grace.

Perhaps you should pay attention when Paul stated that the world will be judged by his Gospel, the one given to him by Jesus.

Rom 2:16
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV
Rom 16:25
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
NKJV
2 Tim 2:8
8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
NKJV

But it seems that many want to marginalize Paul and his gospel that was given to him by Jesus.

H. Richard
-

 

[Barrd]

According to Jesus' own words He did not come but to the house of Israel.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
-
Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
-
Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Since Jesus said it I believe it. Jesus did not come to offer the promised Jewish kingdom to the Gentles. People make a profound mistake to teach what was said to the Jews who were under the law of Moses in the grace church. No where do we see Jesus or the 11 teaching that mankind is no longer under the law of Moses but Paul said we are not under the law of Moses. We are under grace.

Perhaps you should pay attention when Paul stated that the world will be judged by his Gospel, the one given to him by Jesus.

Rom 2:16
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV
Rom 16:25
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
NKJV
2 Tim 2:8
8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
NKJV

But it seems that many want to marginalize Paul and his gospel that was given to him by Jesus.

H. Richard
-

By the same token, the New Covenant was not promised to Gentiles, but to Jews:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And again:

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Kinda gets you right here, doesn't it?