Then said they to him, 'What can we do, that we may work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart.' John 6:28-29ChurchAuthority said:
The Doctrine of OSAS
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That is a WONDERFUL verse.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Now - what did Jesus say that this meant? What does it mean to truly believe in and follow Christ?? James 2:19 tells us that even the DEMONS believe and tremble. Are THEY saved?? NO.
To truly "believe" - we must:
- Be baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Pick up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obey his commandments (John 15:10)
- DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)
"Believing" isn't as easy as it sounds . . .
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So therefore no supporting scripture... just more opinion and eisegesis.ChurchAuthority said:
"We ARE secure - IF we continue to walk in the Spirit and DO the will of God (Matt. 7:21)."
And those who are saved do the will of God and continue to walk in the Spirit, thats why they are called, chosen, predestined, elected, and saved.
HUH???justaname said:
I gave you SEVERAL Scripture verses. What are yo talking about?
We are SUPPOSED to continue to do the will of God - but that isn't always the case, is it??
EVERYBODY falls into sin and MANY turn away completely ([SIZE=10pt]Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]What an appalling display of spiritual pride . . .[/SIZE]
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Sorry I guess I could have been more clear in this... I was replying to this.ChurchAuthority said:
Your post:
Note that Jesus tells us that the son who was secure with his father was dead and is alive AGAIN. OSAS is nothing more than a resurgence of the Pharisaic hypocrisy that Jesus constantly rebuked.
My reply:
Can you please expand on that last statement a bit. Since Jesus constantly rebuked OSAS or a similar hypocrisy, in a time when the salvation plan was not even instituted. Remember the law kills but the Spirit gives life...
Do you have supporting scripture on your theory?
John 8:31-47 comes to mind. Jesus was rebuking the Pharisses who thought they were sinless and secure as God's children - but Jesus showed them differently.justaname said:
Revelation 3:1-6 (NIV2011)AndyBern said:
1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God.
3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.
5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
6 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
How can your name be blotted out of the book of life if it were not there to begin with? No, a person can lose his salvation by continuing in his old ways or neglecting or avoiding God's remaking of us in the likeness of his Son.
I presented this pasage but they just keep rationalizing the Scriptures away to defend their false doctrine of OSAS.Cooter said:
I gave them many others including the following but, again, denial goes VERY deep with these Calvinists:
[SIZE=10pt]Romans 11:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Hebrews 10:26-27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2 Peter 2:20-22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ can fall back into darkness and lose their salvation by their own doing.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Cor. 9:27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Matthew 10:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]"You are the salt of the earth. But what good is salt if[/SIZE] it has lost its flavor? Can you make it salty again? It will be thrown out and trampled underfoot as worthless.
Jesus is telling His disciples that they CAN lose their way and be condemned.
[SIZE=10pt]2 Peter 3:17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Rev. 22:19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with?[/SIZE]
So I guess what some of you are saying is that our security, our assurance, our confidence, are all in ourselves? This is nothing more than self confidence? The Spirit is given as a guarantee of our inheritance on the basis of our efforts to walk a pure life? (Having begun in the Spirit we are therefore made perfect, or at least remain saved, by the flesh.) Do you really think this is what you are reading?
I can't even count on two hands the number of times Heb.10:26 has been used and each time either myself or someone else explains it in its context as applying to those who sin outside of the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Vs. 39..."but we are not of those who fall back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul." This lines up with Rom.10:9.
There are those who describe faith as though it includes performance on our part. This is not faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Life is a free gift. This is grace. when we accept God at His word and accept the free gift of life, this is faith. This is believing to the saving of the soul. There are so many who seem to be working, straining, striving, stressing, for a free gift. I guess they just don't really believe that it is free.
We have all seemed to land in the agreement that one can fall away, as this is mentioned in scripture. But after that, there are two camps. One thinks that sinning is the equivalent of falling away. The other thinks that falling away is rather falling from faith. These are two extremes. A Christian can sin and still not lose salvation. A Christian can lose his confidence and still be saved. But the extreme is that he can walk away from faith by thinking that he has to save his own life. Therefore he is no longer living by faith. He is no longer trusting in the blood. He is attempting to justify himself before God.
The other extreme is that he can walk so far away from God that He thinks God has probably abandoned him. Thus his faith has wavered. But this has more to do with a lack of understanding than anything else. God will never give up on one of His. There are many who come back after a long time. But according to Heb.6:1, this means that he was never lost. If he was, it would have been impossible to return, as the passage indicates.
gotta go. Blessings, everyone, Howie
I can't even count on two hands the number of times Heb.10:26 has been used and each time either myself or someone else explains it in its context as applying to those who sin outside of the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Vs. 39..."but we are not of those who fall back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul." This lines up with Rom.10:9.
There are those who describe faith as though it includes performance on our part. This is not faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Life is a free gift. This is grace. when we accept God at His word and accept the free gift of life, this is faith. This is believing to the saving of the soul. There are so many who seem to be working, straining, striving, stressing, for a free gift. I guess they just don't really believe that it is free.
We have all seemed to land in the agreement that one can fall away, as this is mentioned in scripture. But after that, there are two camps. One thinks that sinning is the equivalent of falling away. The other thinks that falling away is rather falling from faith. These are two extremes. A Christian can sin and still not lose salvation. A Christian can lose his confidence and still be saved. But the extreme is that he can walk away from faith by thinking that he has to save his own life. Therefore he is no longer living by faith. He is no longer trusting in the blood. He is attempting to justify himself before God.
The other extreme is that he can walk so far away from God that He thinks God has probably abandoned him. Thus his faith has wavered. But this has more to do with a lack of understanding than anything else. God will never give up on one of His. There are many who come back after a long time. But according to Heb.6:1, this means that he was never lost. If he was, it would have been impossible to return, as the passage indicates.
gotta go. Blessings, everyone, Howie
If you think that I said it ALL depends upon us - then you didn't understand what I posted.williemac said:
The Spirit empowers us to believe and to remain faithful. He does not COERCE us to do so.
God doesn't force His love and grace upon us - we must cooperate with that love and grace.
[SIZE=small]In Revelation 3:15-16, God issues stern warning to those who choose not cooperate with his grace and instead choose to remain indifferent: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]“I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]This is a frightening prospect for anybody who claims to be a Christian.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]The Parable of the Talents is a perfect illustration of the need for our cooperation with God’s grace.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Paul uses the word, Sunergos (cooperate, work) to describe this.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]2 Cor. 6:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Rom. 8:28[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.[/SIZE]
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Romans 11:22ChurchAuthority said:
This context is kindness not salvation.
Hebrews 10:26-27
This verse does not speak to lose of salvation in the believer either. You are assuming the one receiving the knowledge of truth is also believing that knowledge onto a salvific faith then turning from it. The author could easily be speaking of those who were spoken of long ago. Jude 1:4
2Peter 2:20-22
Again the Jude passage is fitting. We know this because the subject matter here is false prophets. 2Peter 2:1
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. The people who fall for their teachings are not going to be saved and we already know that, thereby they cannot lose a salvation they never had.
1 Corinthians 9:27
Paul states he practices what he preaches.
Matthew 5:13
To speak of the disciples, all of them fell away...(Matthew 26:31) yet this must have a deeper meaning. I see this as speaking of the son of perdition, or of those who are false prophets.
Matthew 10:22
This passage advocates OSAS
2 Peter 3:17
Peter is again teaching against what others might have heard, that they can live a life of lawlessness. Again Jude 1:4
Revelation 3:5
How do you know who is written in the book of life and who is not. Possibly everyone ever born is in there.
Revelation 22:19
Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sin of all mankind, thereby all can have a share in the tree unless they are not found in the book.
OSAS does not advocate lawlessness, only the assuredness of the truth of the word. Those who are God's sheep always are and will always be, especially from God's perspective. If you think that gives you license to sin, then you probably are not one of the fold.
Now to the other side of the coin, perhaps some do lose a form of faith or a type of belief. This I cannot deny, only the qualifier is that faith never was and never will be salvific. Salvation's requirement is belief, those who are His believe until the end, this is assured by Him. Hebrews 12:2
Again I believe many have it wrong to what OSAS means. This is simply the belief that God will finish what He started in the believer, the new creation. It does not advocate "an alter call and I'm good" attitude, nor lawlessness. It affirms what Jesus says that whosoever believes in the Son of man will have eternal life.
1John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Yeah this passage does not say what you are implying... I'll post itChurchAuthority said:
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.
40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 “Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
Sinlessness is never spoken of in this passage. They were speaking of being of Jewish or Hebraic heritage. From this position they felt they were the seeds of Abraham, yet we know the Christ is the seed.
[SIZE=10.5pt]Hmmmm - pretty [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]WEAK[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]. Let's start from the [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]top[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] and go down the list:[/SIZE]justaname said:
[SIZE=small]Romans 11:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]This context is kindness not salvation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]It’s about being CUT OFF from His Kindness. Faithful followers of Christ are NOT cut off.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Hebrews 10:26-27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]This verse does not speak to lose of salvation in the believer either. You are assuming the one receiving the knowledge of truth is also believing that knowledge onto a salvific faith then turning from it. The author could easily be speaking of those who were spoken of long ago. Jude 1:4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]**FAULTY LINGUISTICS ALERT!!**[/SIZE]
The Greek word used here for “Knowledge” is not the usual term, “Gnosis”. It is “Epignosis”, which is a full, experiential knowledge. This passage is speaking to TRUE Christians who have fallen away.
[SIZE=small]2 Peter 2:20-22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Again the Jude passage is fitting. We know this because the subject matter here is false prophets. 2Peter 2:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small] 1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. The people who fall for their teachings are not going to be saved and we already know that, thereby they cannot lose a salvation they never had.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]WRONG[/SIZE][SIZE=small].
The SAME word, “Epignosis” is used here as well. This is about TRUE Christians who fell away and became false prophets.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]1 Corinthians 9:27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Paul states he practices what he preaches.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Now that is REALLY reaching. Paul is saying nothing of the kind. He is talking about subduing his flesh otherwise – even though he preaches to others, he can still be disqualified (loss of salvation).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Matthew 5:13[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]To speak of the disciples, all of them fell away...(Matthew 26:31) yet this must have a deeper meaning. I see this as speaking of the son of perdition, or of those who are false prophets.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Those who BECOME false prophets after losing their salvation (2 Peter 2:20-22). There are MANY Church leaders who led MANY to Christ, only to fall away and become false prophets. Nestorius and Arius come to mind.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Matthew 10:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]This passage advocates OSAS[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]No it doesn’t. It’s about faithful cooperation with God’s grace.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]2 Peter 3:17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Peter is again teaching against what others might have heard, that they can live a life of lawlessness. Again Jude 1:4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]WRONG[/SIZE]. That’s not what he is saying. He is telling his readers to beware and to stay alert, lest they fall back into sin and LOSE their salvation.
[SIZE=small]Revelation 3:5[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]How do you know who is written in the book of life and who is not. Possibly everyone ever born is in there.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]WRONG[/SIZE][SIZE=small].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]This verse talks about blotting out names that were already there. Rev. 21:27 tells us emphatically:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]“[/SIZE]Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.”
[SIZE=small]Revelation 22:19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sin of all mankind, thereby all can have a share in the tree unless they are not found in the book.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]That’s NOT what it says. It says that their share will be taken away. NOT everybody has a share in the Tree of Life - ONLY those who do the will of God (Matt. 7:21-23). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Nice try . . .[/SIZE]
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From my perspective I have sufficiently shown how the texts can be viewed to support OSAS...
Can you from this text show me a point of view that supports your opinion?
John 6:37-40
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
Can you from this text show me a point of view that supports your opinion?
John 6:37-40
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
Absolutely. These verses support John 10:28, which says:justaname said:
"That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father."
The Catholic Church - and ALL other non-Catholic Christians who do not adhere to OSAS believe this and teach this. What these verses do NOT say is that the YOU cannot leave Him. OSAS is a false doctrine because is denies free will.
Just as the Prodigal Son was secure - walked away into a life of grave sin, repented and came back - we ALSO have that perogative. Just as the father in that parable, God gives uis all that we need to stay in His hand - but he does not force us to stay. He will always take us back if we repent but He will also let us exercise our will NOT to return.
Matt. 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
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So in other words the sheep can be influenced by satan or any other member of his host to leave the flock, similar to eve's deception, and God just allows it?ChurchAuthority said:
And to add to this we have "39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."
What good shepherd loses one of His sheep? Sheep wander, that is just what they do. You are saying Jesus will not leave the 99 behind to go after the one lost sheep?
He will take us back? Apparently you have not considered Heb.6:4-6. If one should fall away, it is impossible for that one to come back.There seems to be a hole in your theory. The prodigal son never ceased to be the father's son. Sure, He will take us back into 'fellowship' if we neglect it or go away from it. This is because we did not cease to be His. As for Jerusalem, why do you quote from a time period where these were not in the new covenant? Do you not realize that there is an enormous difference between pre and post Calvary?ChurchAuthority said:
I am not one of those who insist on osas, but I am also not one of those who think that walking away is all that easy. In fact, it is downright rare. How do I know? Think of Heb.6:4-6. How many do you know about who you think may have walked out of eternal life? Name one that you know for sure has done that. And while you are at it, write that person off for eternity, because he cannot be renewed again into repentance to salvation.
Apparently, you don't understand the Parable of the Lost Sheep.justaname said:
The LOST Sheep is one who LOSES his way (temptation, sin). The Shepherd go after that sheep but he doesn't drag the sheep back kicking and screaming. The sheep will either come back with Him or stay lost.
Sin or salvation is our perogative. We are ALL redeemed (paid for) but we are only saved if we cooperate with God's grace (Mark 16:20, Rom. 8:28, 2 Cor. 6:1).
I believe that's what you Protestants call, "Accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior."
You're looking at the Prodigal Son all wrong. The point is not that he was his father's physical son - just as we are not God's physical children. We are ADOPTED sons and daughters. The point of the parable is repentance and forgiveness. There is no sin so grave that is cannot be forgiven - unless you deny the power of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.williemac said:
The only sin that is unforgiveable is the sin against the Holy Spirit which most scholars agree (Catholic AND Protestant) is the sin of final impenitence. Final impenitence is the refusal of the Holy Spirit to change you.
As for my knowing of somebosy is eternally lost - I don't know ONE single person - even Judas or Hitler or anyboy in history. The Catholic Church does not and has NEVER taught of knowing that somebody is in hell because we leave them to the mercy of God.
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I completely understand the parable of the lost sheep. Lets look to what scripture says:ChurchAuthority said:
5 “When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
You completely misconstrue the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints which is obvious by this quote"The Shepherd go after that sheep but he doesn't drag the sheep back kicking and screaming.
The parable reads he "lays the sheep on His shoulders."
Also this does not equate. Jesus' words.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."
Your words.
"The sheep will either come back with Him or stay lost."
So according to you Jesus is going to leave some lost, that are His, and not follow the Father's will.
Yet according to the doctrine I support all that are His, stay His. Those that are not His, never was and never will be. This is further supported with:
Romans 9:15-16
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
And it is further supported by:
Romans 8:28
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
You are correct with your translation of "work together", yet you need to look at the subject to see who is the cause. "God causes all things to work together"
So now to put these two verses in cooperation.
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
If God purposes for you to be saved, you will be saved!
REALLY?justaname said:
What do you do with 1 Tim. 2:3-4, which states emphatically:
"This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth."
According to your false doctrine - EVERYBODY will be saved. However, on several occations including Matt. 7:21-23 and Matt. 25:31-46, Jesus says differently.
.
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1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
Ezekiel 18:23
23 “Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:32
32 “For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”
1 Timothy 4:10
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
2Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
God has brought salvation to all men, yet all men do not believe. Being God knows the end from the beginning He knows all who believe and do His will. These are the only ones being "saved."
Ephesians 1:11
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
God is sovereign. He keeps all of His flock without losing one.
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
Ezekiel 18:23
23 “Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:32
32 “For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”
1 Timothy 4:10
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
2Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
God has brought salvation to all men, yet all men do not believe. Being God knows the end from the beginning He knows all who believe and do His will. These are the only ones being "saved."
Ephesians 1:11
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
God is sovereign. He keeps all of His flock without losing one.
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