The Doctrine of OSAS

[Phoneman777]

James 2:23 NIV And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

Funny how the belief of the people in Scripture - like Abraham who obeyed God's voice, charge, commandments, statutes, and laws - always led to action, while the belief of OSAS folks always leads to the criminalization of action, especially when it comes to the Sabbath. We're so blessed to have those cloud of witnesses in Hebrews described as not once manifesting the Dead Faith of OSAS, but evidencing their faith through obedience to God's commandments.

 

[ATP]

You can bet that the Unmerciful Servant had faith he was forgiven of his debt and believed in the freedom which came at such great expense (10,000 talents) to his lord but found himself once again condemned to pay back the very debt for which he was originally forgiven because he failed to continue in Living Faith and crucify the old man of unforgiveness. Jesus said so shall the Father do to all those who do the same.

So you agree soul sleep is false by using Luke 16:19-31 NIV. I thought you believed soul sleep was true?

Matt 18:21-35 NIV - The Unmerciful Servant - In this parable the unforgiving servant is sent to the torturers by the king (God) for his unwillingness to forgive others. In the broader context of understanding the law of love, and the immediate context of forgiveness, I think this means that if we are unwilling to love well and forgive others, God will “torture” us by using the devil at his disposal. I interpret torture as causing us to live and fail by our own efforts, to face our evil, recognize our sin and appreciate God’s forgiveness of us. Then we will in turn forgive others because we will see that we are just as bad as them and capable of doing the same thing they did to us.

This forgiveness is to be understood of averting calamities and judgments, likely to fall for his iniquities, which is sometimes the sense of this phrase: see 1 Kings 8:34 and so his being delivered to the tormentors may mean, his being distressed with an accusing guilty conscience, an harassing, vexing devil, many misfortunes of life, and temporal calamities. Though after all, this is not strictly to be applied to any particular case or person, but the scope of the parable is to be attended to; which is to enforce mutual forgiveness among men, from having received full and free pardon at the hands of God; and that without the former, there is little reason to expect the latter, as appears from what follows.

 

[ATP]

Funny how the belief of the people in Scripture - like Abraham who obeyed God's voice, charge, commandments, statutes, and laws - always led to action, while the belief of OSAS folks always leads to the criminalization of action, especially when it comes to the Sabbath. We're so blessed to have those cloud of witnesses in Hebrews described as not once manifesting the Dead Faith of OSAS, but evidencing their faith through obedience to God's commandments.

Once again Phone, I do believe faith without works is dead. You simply do not accept my testimony.

 

[Barrd]

Funny how the belief of the people in Scripture - like Abraham who obeyed God's voice, charge, commandments, statutes, and laws - always led to action, while the belief of OSAS folks always leads to the criminalization of action, especially when it comes to the Sabbath. We're so blessed to have those cloud of witnesses in Hebrews described as not once manifesting the Dead Faith of OSAS, but evidencing their faith through obedience to God's commandments.

AMEN!

I have never been able to figure out why it is that this one, out of the ten of them, is rejected...thus making it necessary to reject all ten...

 

[Phoneman777]

Can you support your first statement with evidence? Most importantly that OSAS seeks to establish dead faith as a means to obtain eternal life.

Read the 2nd chapter of James. Y'know, where he says faith without works is both dead (James 2:26 KJV) and powerless to save (James 2:14 KJV)?

As for OSAS, at the core of this doctrine lies the (erroneous) belief that works need not be manifested in the life of one converted to Christ - only the "belief in" and "acceptance of" Jesus. What OSAS fails to acknowledge is that works are the evidence that one truly believes and has accepted Jesus because works are only possible if Jesus resides in the heart, while they are utterly impossible for those whose hearts are devoid of Christ (Romans 8:7 KJV)

 

[mjrhealth]

Im amazed haw fast the devil works too steal away the people faith.

Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

But there are the few that can stand against the whiles of the devil

Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luk 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.

In all His most graciuos love and patients

 

[Joyful]

Excuse me for butting in but neither of you are budging.
No one is listening to their opposes.

How many pages accumulated so far? And it will not be come to the end at this rate.

I don't see the point of this thread.

 

[Phoneman777]

So you agree soul sleep is false by using Luke 16:19-31 NIV. I thought you believed soul sleep was true?

Matt 18:21-35 NIV - The Unmerciful Servant - In this parable the unforgiving servant is sent to the torturers by the king (God) for his unwillingness to forgive others. In the broader context of understanding the law of love, and the immediate context of forgiveness, I think this means that if we are unwilling to love well and forgive others, God will “torture” us by using the devil at his disposal. I interpret torture as causing us to live and fail by our own efforts, to face our evil, recognize our sin and appreciate God’s forgiveness of us. Then we will in turn forgive others because we will see that we are just as bad as them and capable of doing the same thing they did to us.

This forgiveness is to be understood of averting calamities and judgments, likely to fall for his iniquities, which is sometimes the sense of this phrase: see 1 Kings 8:34 and so his being delivered to the tormentors may mean, his being distressed with an accusing guilty conscience, an harassing, vexing devil, many misfortunes of life, and temporal calamities. Though after all, this is not strictly to be applied to any particular case or person, but the scope of the parable is to be attended to; which is to enforce mutual forgiveness among men, from having received full and free pardon at the hands of God; and that without the former, there is little reason to expect the latter, as appears from what follows.

ATP, how many times do I have to school you on this? The Rich Man and Lazarus is parable intentionally left uninterpreted in order to establish the false doctrine of Eternal Torment which has nothing to do with the sound exegesis of the properly interpreted parable of The Unmerciful Servant - a parable which teaches that forgiveness and salvation are conditional based on whether we choose to remain unforgiving scoundrels or allow ourselves to be molded into the image of the LORD WHO has forgiven us at such an infinite cost to Himself.

I've never seen such first rate creative theology as yours which requires the overhaul of the English language so that "black" can mean "white" and context is wholly set aside.

 

[justaname]

Read the 2nd chapter of James. Y'know, where he says faith without works is both dead (James 2:26 KJV) and powerless to save (James 2:14 KJV)?

As for OSAS, at the core of this doctrine lies the (erroneous) belief that works need not be manifested in the life of one converted to Christ - only the "belief in" and "acceptance of" Jesus. What OSAS fails to acknowledge is that works are the evidence that one truly believes and has accepted Jesus because works are only possible if Jesus resides in the heart, while they are utterly impossible for those whose hearts are devoid of Christ (Romans 8:7 KJV)

I have fully read the book of James and am fully convicted of the truth it presents.

Restating your claim as evidence is not evidence at all.

Can you support the second portion of your post with evidence? What I have in mind specifically is this portion, "As for OSAS, at the core of this doctrine lies the (erroneous) belief that works need not be manifested in the life of one converted to Christ - only the "belief in" and "acceptance of" Jesus."

 

[Phoneman777]

Excuse me for butting in but neither of you are budging.
No one is listening to their opposes.

How many pages accumulated so far? And it will not be come to the end at this rate.

I don't see the point of this thread.

Landmines such as OSAS, left alone, can have devastating effects on the unsuspecting wayfaring soul.

 

[Phoneman777]

I have fully read the book of James and am fully convicted of the truth it presents.

Restating your claim as evidence is not evidence at all.

Can you support the second portion of your post with evidence? What I have in mind specifically is this portion, "As for OSAS, at the core of this doctrine lies the (erroneous) belief that works need not be manifested in the life of one converted to Christ - only the "belief in" and "acceptance of" Jesus."

The evidence that one knows Jesus (and all that is imparted to us through our knowing Him) is obedience, according to 1 John 2:3-4 KJV, Perhaps you should consider that James is defining the relationship between faith and works, and not presenting works as the post-Calvary "estranged husband" of faith.

 

[justaname]

Excuse me for butting in but neither of you are budging.
No one is listening to their opposes.

How many pages accumulated so far? And it will not be come to the end at this rate.

I don't see the point of this thread.

Honestly I do not see you as butting in.

I am listening to the opposing views and am particularly challenged by OzSpen. I believe readers as well as participants can grow from more fully understanding differing positions. I see this as a theological discussion.

This discussion has not only begun on this forum but has lasted much longer than that, perhaps since Christianity was in it's infancy. Some will say no one was discussing these issues until the reformation, yet that would not be true. I do not think a definite date or timing can be placed on when the first two theologians began discussing these soteriological concerns.

And just for the record, everyone involved in this thread including those reading are theologians in their own right.

The point of the thread has it's meaning in the OP (very first post).

 

[justaname]

The evidence that one knows Jesus (and all that is imparted to us through our knowing Him) is obedience, according to 1 John 2:3-4 KJV, Perhaps you should consider that James is defining the relationship between faith and works, and not presenting works as the post-Calvary "estranged husband" of faith.

This does nothing to answer the question.

Your Statement:
"As for OSAS, at the core of this doctrine lies the (erroneous) belief that works need not be manifested in the life of one converted to Christ - only the "belief in" and "acceptance of" Jesus."

Can you post the definition of OSAS and show me where it states works need not be manifested in the life of one converted to Christ?

All you have is a straw-man...

 

[brakelite]

Brother,

scripture teaches us that we are no longer condemned because of the blood of Jesus..Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV


How is that so, scripture teaches us that Jesus died for all sins, even future sins...Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV...What is the "seed" and the "truth" referring to here...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:


But doesn't the believer live again...

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

And here is all the proof we need of your twisted and corrupt belief system. I fully returned to a life of sin. Growing, selling, and smoking weed, while fully cognizant of the fact that I was utterly rebelling against the will of God, spurning His counsel, resisting His Spirit, grieving the angels of God sent to steer me back to heavenly principles, breaking ALL the commandments , risking the spiritual lives of my family and you believe I would still go to heaven if I died in this state????????
And not only so, but would witness by speaking of end-times beliefs while sharing a smoke with my mates!!!! I was likely doing more damage to the cause of God than good, aside from the fact that most of what I believed as prophetic truth at that time was in fact prophetic garbage...

Do you not understand ATP, that the only thing we take with us when we die is the character we developed when alive? Your current faith is gross presumption ATP and needs repenting of. I believe I also must leave this conversation before I tempt you into further depths of error and distortion.

 

[brakelite]

This does nothing to answer the question.

Your Statement:
"As for OSAS, at the core of this doctrine lies the (erroneous) belief that works need not be manifested in the life of one converted to Christ - only the "belief in" and "acceptance of" Jesus."

Can you post the definition of OSAS and show me where it states works need not be manifested in the life of one converted to Christ?

All you have is a straw-man...

The defenition as displayed in ATP's response above should suffice.That one can 'backslide' into a life of sin and still expect to be saved.

 

[Butch5]

That fallacious argument and red herring stuff I believe is from the devil. Antichrist system. It's a reason to avoid confrontation.

Then why do you keep using them?

 

[justaname]

The defenition as displayed in ATP's response above should suffice.That one can 'backslide' into a life of sin and still expect to be saved.

Then according to your own description you should have no hope in salvation right now. Is this true?

Or are you stating that while in the backsliding state Jesus' atoning sacrifice is no longer effective? Jesus then would no longer be the mediator between you and God because you are backsliding. Can you clarify this for me?

Then we have a different problem with this statement and it is similar to this false statement. "Christianity is a false religion because so many have been killed in the name of Christianity."

Do you see what you are doing in your claim?

 

[ATP]

Excuse me for butting in but neither of you are budging.
No one is listening to their opposes.

How many pages accumulated so far? And it will not be come to the end at this rate.

I don't see the point of this thread.

My question has always been the same. How can one lose their salvation when the seed of God never leaves us. What do they mean by "the truth" and "the seed"...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Im amazed haw fast the devil works too steal away the people faith.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

They fell away because they had no root. Very sad.

ATP, how many times do I have to school you on this? The Rich Man and Lazarus is parable intentionally left uninterpreted in order to establish the false doctrine of Eternal Torment which has nothing to do with the sound exegesis of the properly interpreted parable of The Unmerciful Servant - a parable which teaches that forgiveness and salvation are conditional based on whether we choose to remain unforgiving scoundrels or allow ourselves to be molded into the image of the LORD WHO has forgiven us at such an infinite cost to Himself.

I've never seen such first rate creative theology as yours which requires the overhaul of the English language so that "black" can mean "white" and context is wholly set aside.

The definition of a parable hasn't changed right?

You can't just pick and choose any parable you wish to fit your theology, lol.

You are entertaining though.

 

[Butch5]

You guys seriously do not know how to debate on this subject. I give you scripture on top of scripture and you call it a fallacy? Where is your scripture Butch?

We don't know how to debate this subject? You post Scripture and highlight a portion. Often you don't even comment. Are we supposed to read your mind? I've already said that we are aware of the Scriptures that you post. It's not like you're posting something we've never seen. That it doesn't lead us to the conclusion of OSAS shows that we understand those passages differently. I've pointed out repeatedly that you've not posted a singe passage of Scripture that states salvation can't be lost. As such you must be drawing that conclusion from inference. I've asked repeatedly for you to explain how it is that you've drawn these conclusions, to which you've not responded. Numerous fallacies have been pointed out, to which you've not responded. You're hardly in a position to say someone else doesn't know how to debate.

 

[ATP]

And here is all the proof we need of your twisted and corrupt belief system. I fully returned to a life of sin.

What does it mean to be born of God brake..

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Do you not understand ATP, that the only thing we take with us when we die is the character we developed when alive? Your current faith is gross presumption ATP and needs repenting of. I believe I also must leave this conversation before I tempt you into further depths of error and distortion.

OSAS doesn't believe these accusations. We follow Grace brakelite...

We who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in no way profess a dead faith, nor are we antinomians...yet when it comes to soteriology we do believe we are saved through the belief of the death of Jesus Christ for our sins and His resurrection. This is the entirety of the gospel for salvation.

What we believe about works is it is the natural progression and out working of being born again. These works do nothing to secure or maintain our salvation. These works are accredited to God as working in and through us.

We do not believe that sin will disqualify any born again believer for the free gift of salvation. All sin is deliberate, yet repentance is the natural working of God in us through the conviction He places on us. We believe as His children we are chastised but not condemned.

The defenition as displayed in ATP's response above should suffice.That one can 'backslide' into a life of sin and still expect to be saved.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Then why do you keep using them?

Do you believe what the Word of God says, that Jesus died for all sins. I am praying for you Butch...Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV