The Doctrine of OSAS

[ATP]

We don't know how to debate this subject? You post Scripture and highlight a portion. Often you don't even comment. Are we supposed to read your mind? I've already said that we are aware of the Scriptures that you post. It's not like you're posting something we've never seen. That it doesn't lead us to the conclusion of OSAS shows that we understand those passages differently. I've pointed out repeatedly that you've not posted a singe passage of Scripture that states salvation can't be lost. As such you must be drawing that conclusion from inference. I've asked repeatedly for you to explain how it is that you've drawn these conclusions, to which you've not responded. Numerous fallacies have been pointed out, to which you've not responded. You're hardly in a position to say someone else doesn't know how to debate.

The Gospel is quite simple. Do you believe what the Word of God says, that Jesus died for all sins....Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

 

[Phoneman777]

Once again Phone, I do believe faith without works is dead. You simply do not accept my testimony.

ATP, don't you see that you simultaneously claim to believe faith without works is dead but in the same breath deny this very thing by insisting that the cessation of works by one who has turned from Jesus back to the old sinful, work-less lifestyle leaves their faith yet alive? "Whatsover is without faith is sin" proves that "faith" and "sin" are mutually exclusive in the life of a Christian but OSAS seeks to make them peaceably coexist within him.

 

[ATP]

ATP, don't you see that you simultaneously claim to believe faith without works is dead but in the same breath deny this very thing by insisting that the cessation of works by one who has turned from Jesus back to the old sinful, work-less lifestyle leaves their faith yet alive? "Whatsover is without faith is sin" proves that "faith" and "sin" are mutually exclusive in the life of a Christian but OSAS seeks to make them peaceably coexist within him.

That's what the devil does, he is the accuser. Get away from me Satan.

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

[Phoneman777]

The OP suggests that the Unpardonable Sin - blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - is one specific sin which cannot be forgiven.

When one considers that the job of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world of sin, of right doing, and of judgment, then it is easy to see that refusing to allow the Holy Spirit to do His job can be nothing other than this blasphemy of against the Holy Spirit because how can one be led by the Holy Spirit to seek pardon for sin if one is rendered incapable of being led to seek it through repeated denial of His convicting power?

 

[ATP]

The OP suggests that the Unpardonable Sin - blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - is one specific sin which cannot be forgiven.

The unpardonable sin is a nonbeliever remaining in their unbelief. What does "enter my rest" mean here..."For we who have believed enter that rest"...

Rom 11:20 NIV Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Rom 11:23 NIV And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Heb 3:16-19 NIV Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[OzSpen]

I''m not a grammar Nazi but I immediately thought "high jack"? LOL

If you read dictionary.com 'Sv highjack', you will find that 'hijack' and 'highjack' are synonymous terms. Merriam-Webster dictionary supports the same synonym. The freedictionary.com affirms the same synonyms. How about that? Who is laughing now?

Oz

 

[justaname]

The OP suggests that the Unpardonable Sin - blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - is one specific sin which cannot be forgiven.

When one considers that the job of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world of sin, of right doing, and of judgment, then it is easy to see that refusing to allow the Holy Spirit to do His job can be nothing other than this blasphemy of against the Holy Spirit because how can one be led by the Holy Spirit to seek pardon for sin if one is rendered incapable of being led to seek it through repeated denial of His convicting power?

blasphemy |ˈblasfəmē|
noun (pl. blasphemies)
the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk: he was detained on charges of blasphemy | screaming incomprehensible blasphemies.

What the context of the verse that uses that phrase suggests is attributing Jesus' miracles to the work of the devil is blaspheming the Holy Spirit...

 

[ATP]

blasphemy |ˈblasfəmē|
noun (pl. blasphemies)
the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk: he was detained on charges of blasphemy | screaming incomprehensible blasphemies.

What the context of the verse that uses that phrase suggests is attributing Jesus' miracles to the work of the devil is blaspheming the Holy Spirit...

sounds like nonbeliever talk...

 

[Phoneman777]

Good point



Are you trying to say you can deny the Lord one minute , repent the next , and be OK ?

The more you look at OSAS , the more it looks like there can be no other way.

Absolutely. There is no such thing as being clothed with the Robe of Righteousness while simultaneously stripping one's self naked and climbing into bed with Satan. What OSAS folks don't understand is that it is at that time that God is most merciful, begging and pleading for the offender to return to Him and receive the clean garment which covers that nakedness, but blasphemous persistent refusal to obey the pleadings of the Holy Spirit will eventually lead to the inability to hear His voice and to seek pardon for sleeping with the enemy - The Unpardonable Sin.

Salvation is a day by day, moment by moment experience and the only way I'm changing my mind is if someone can find me a branch that has not withered and died after becoming disconnected from the Vine.

 

[ATP]

Salvation is a day by day, moment by moment experience and the only way I'm changing my mind is if someone can find me a branch that has not withered and died after becoming disconnected from the Vine.

They withered and died because they had no root Phone...Matt 13:6 NIV But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

Sanctification is the ongoing process..believing and justification only comes once..Rom 10:9-10 NIV. They became disconnected from the Vine because of unbelief Phone...The unpardonable sin is a nonbeliever remaining in their unbelief. What does "enter my rest" mean here..."For we who have believed enter that rest"...

Rom 11:20 NIV Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Rom 11:23 NIV And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Heb 3:16-19 NIV Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

The Unpardonable Sin.

..is about nonbelievers.

 

[mjrhealth]

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Again who beleives God, who has faith in God so be saved, who thinks that he can perfect Himself, is it not the power of God that saves men?? So why is it so many deny His power??

In All His Love

 

[ATP]

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Again who beleives God, who has faith in God so be saved, who thinks that he can perfect Himself, is it not the power of God that saves men?? So why is it so many deny His power??

Amen brother.

Eph 2:8-9 NIV For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Barrd]

The problem with the "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine is that there is just enough truth in it to make it plausible. The thing that OSASers just can't seem to get through their heads is that God will not violate our free will.
And as long as we have free will, we can turn away from our faith. It's all very well to say that someone who turns away never had real "saving faith"...or that they didn't have "the root of salvation" in them....and maybe in some cases that might be true.
But unless and until we can read someone else's heart, we have no right at all to judge his faith. I believe....no, I am sure....that it is possible for someone with "saving faith" to turn away and be lost. It really isn't a matter of God not giving that person the opportunity to be saved in the first place...either salvation is available to all people everywhere, or God is a liar. Since God cannot lie, salvation must be available to all people everywhere.
Satan can be proud of this one. It is a masterpiece of deception, leading many away from the narrow path that leads to life, and unto the broad path that leads to destruction.

 

[mjrhealth]

Satan can be proud of this one. It is a masterpiece of deception, leading many away from the narrow path that leads to life, and unto the broad path that leads to destruction.

He sure can be, he has has man tremling in his boots unsure of his salavtion, doubting God and His power, giving power to the devil to deceive and lay snares for men. forever doubting God, not walking after the spirit but after the flesh, having no faith in God, yes the devil has done his work well, pity as it is.

In all his Love

 

[OzSpen]

Then why do you keep using them?

Well said, brother.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

I have no disagreement of Kittle's definition, yet you have loaded your opinion into the definition. One can abandon a religious belief system without holding belief in the system at all. Some who are counted by the world as Christians do not believe in the resurrection; they say it is to be understood spiritually. Cultural Christians continually "leave the faith" where they never had a saving faith at one point in their life. This also dovetails with another point I made about getting behind Paul's meaning behind leaving the faith. Apparently through your reading you have preloaded your assumption they were included in God's plan for salvation but they thwarted God's plan and went apostate. Yet from God's perspective they were never intended or included in salvation and His plan was never thwarted. Perhaps they had some form of belief or faith, yet they never had saving faith. These never had salvation and then lost it because God was never saving them. Saving faith is only effective and efficient. Saving faith never fails because it is saving. Saving faith is as sure as God's promises.

Allow me to illustrate. Lets say we are reviewing a marathon. Lets say in this marathon only two people finished the race, while the rest abandoned due to exhaustion. Only the two would we call finishers while all we would call participants. Only these two can we say they had the finish line from the beginning of the race. So it is with salvation. Only those who have the finish line from the beginning have salvation. Salvation is not something that can be lost, it can only be gained. Salvation is not given to those who do not abide in Christ so why would we say the apostate ever had it to begin with?

Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


I am not getting into a study of epistemology yet there is something valid here also. Notice it says believe in your heart. Some can know all the doctrines, be able to recite scriptures verbatim both KJV and NIV, and be able to explain the concept of the Trinity so even the most inept can get handles on it, yet not believe in their heart. Intellectual knowledge is not the same as believing in your heart. Many never allow their faith to make the leap from their head to their heart.

My contention is we know an apostate's belief never made it to their heart because they are apostate. You can say well you don't know their heart yet that statement applies in the reverse also. The evidence is in my favor though and this denies your ability to say they had salvation then lost it. Expanding a bit here, how can you say they ever possessed salvation if you don't know their heart?


So then here are the questions again.

Does God begin saving those He knows will go apostate?
Does God seal eventual apostates with the Holy Spirit?

In my understanding of the English meaning of apostate, 'A person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle' (Oxford dictionaries online), a person has a Christian belief that he/she renounces. To become apostate means to abandon that faith. It is not referring to someone who never had that faith and then renounced it. To renounce what one does not have is an illogical concept.

 

[ATP]

or that they didn't have "the root of salvation" in them....and maybe in some cases that might be true.

What do you mean in "some cases". Either you have the root or you don't. We don't remain in God, rather God remains in us, forever. God doesn't give up on us. Is the root not the "seed" and the "truth" in us...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

But unless and until we can read someone else's heart, we have no right at all to judge his faith. I believe....no, I am sure....that it is possible for someone with "saving faith" to turn away and be lost.

Scripture states that nonbelievers are considered "the lost". This term is only valid for nonbelievers. The reason they are not His sheep is because of unbelief..John 10:26 NIV.

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

It is a masterpiece of deception, leading many away from the narrow path that leads to life, and unto the broad path that leads to destruction.

Believing only comes once Barrd. What does Jesus mean when he says "through me"...

John 10:9 NIV I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

John 14:6 NIV Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matt 7:13-14 NIV - These passages refer to salvation in Christ. Jesus is describing two gates, the gate to death Job 38:17 NIV, Psalm 107:18 NIV, Isa 38:10 NIV, Matt 16:18 NIV.............and the gate to heaven and eternal life Matt 7:14 NIV, Matt 22:14 NIV, Luke 13:22-30 NIV, John 10:9 NIV, John 14:6 NIV, Acts 14:27 NIV.

The word "destruction" refers to the spirit of the antichrist...2 Thess 2:3 NIV Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Also, the word "perish" refers to nonbelievers...John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Barrd]

He sure can be, he has has man tremling in his boots unsure of his salavtion, doubting God and His power, giving power to the devil to deceive and lay snares for men. forever doubting God, not walking after the spirit but after the flesh, having no faith in God, yes the devil has done his work well, pity as it is.

In all his Love

You twist my words just as you twist God's Word.
And then you dare to sign "In all his Love"....and do not even capitalize "His".

I won't be responding to you anymore, either. You want to push me into losing my temper, but it's not going to happen.
You need serious help my friend....but I'm afraid you're going to need someone with a lot more patience than I have. I hope someday you will find what you are looking for...

What do you mean in "some cases". Either you have the root or you don't. We don't remain in God, rather God remains in us, forever. God doesn't give up on us. Is the root not the "seed" and the "truth" in us...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:


Scripture states that nonbelievers are considered "the lost". This term is only valid for nonbelievers. The reason they are not His sheep is because of unbelief..John 10:26 NIV.

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.


Believing only comes once Barrd. What does Jesus mean when he says "through me"...

John 10:9 NIV I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

John 14:6 NIV Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matt 7:13-14 NIV - These passages refer to salvation in Christ. Jesus is describing two gates, the gate to death Job 38:17 NIV, Psalm 107:18 NIV, Isa 38:10 NIV, Matt 16:18 NIV.............and the gate to heaven and eternal life Matt 7:14 NIV, Matt 22:14 NIV, Luke 13:22-30 NIV, John 10:9 NIV, John 14:6 NIV, Acts 14:27 NIV.

The word "destruction" refers to the spirit of the antichrist...2 Thess 2:3 NIV Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Also, the word "perish" refers to nonbelievers...John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I thought I made it clear to you earlier that I would not be discussing this matter with you any further? I've already wasted over a month on you, and you are still just repeating the same ol' same ol'.
I really hate to put you on my ignore list...

 

[mjrhealth]

You need serious help my friend....but I'm afraid you're going to need someone with a lot more patience than I have. I hope someday you will find what you are looking for...

I dont need to look He is my bestest friend, always at my side, always on my mind always in my thought, everday is given to Him so that one day He will be glorified. No one day special for God as all days are special when with Him.

..and do not even capitalize "His".

Werent you the one the otherday questiong me about english, fault finding again, already answered that question.

In all His Love

 

[Phoneman777]

That's what the devil does, he is the accuser. Get away from me Satan.

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Satan accuses but God reasons with us (Isaiah 1:18 KJV).