The Doctrine of OSAS

[Butch5]

Correct..2 Tim 2:13 NIV if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.


Do you deny the scriptures where it says Jesus died for all sins? It's ok to admit it. That's how we learn...

Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

You're still avoiding the issue. As I said in another post by ignoring logic and grammar you set yourself up as the ultimate authority, not the Scriptures. It's your "interpretation" of the Scriptures that is ultimately authoritative, not the Scriptures. In order to make the Scriptures the ultimate authority you have to follow logic and grammar. If your interpretation is the final authority there is no point in discussion because in your eyes you will always be right. Also, by doing this you won't learn either.

 

[OzSpen]

HI Oz,

I'm familiar with that page and do visit it. I agree that we may all reason improperly at times. However, i would submit that this is more serious for the Christian. Laws of logic are a part of the created order. The Scriptures tell us that God cannot deny Himself. Being logical is part of who God is, thus it behooves the Christian to think in a logical manner. After all we are called to be imitators of God. When we use illogical arguments were are actually doing the opposite of imitating God. I am concerned when Christians ignore this fact and continue to argue illogically. I have to wonder why someone would do this.

Thanks, Butch.

I've started the thread at: 'Logical fallacies high jack discussions'. Sadly, I have committed the error of misspelling hijack as 'high jack'. It was my faulty thinking of the moment.

The thread will not go anywhere unless people like you and me engage in pursuing the topic in the thread. Many Christians are oblivious to the damage that logical fallacies do. Many don't know it when they use them.

Oz

 

[ATP]

You always fail to see that the multitude of promises that you post are CONDITIONAL. We can only claim such promises as long as we choose to remain surrendered to Him.

Imperishable, enduring, remain and be with us forever are conditional words? We don't remain in God, God remains in us.

Why would we return to a life of sin..1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

His seed remains in any of us who do not cast it away from us by returning to a life of sin.

Why would we return to a life of sin..1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

 

[ATP]

You're still avoiding the issue. As I said in another post by ignoring logic and grammar you set yourself up as the ultimate authority, not the Scriptures. It's your "interpretation" of the Scriptures that is ultimately authoritative, not the Scriptures. In order to make the Scriptures the ultimate authority you have to follow logic and grammar. If your interpretation is the final authority there is no point in discussion because in your eyes you will always be right. Also, by doing this you won't learn either.

You guys seriously do not know how to debate on this subject. I give you scripture on top of scripture and you call it a fallacy? Where is your scripture Butch?

 

[justaname]

justaname,

I refer you to my response at #1102 where I quoted Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the NT and its examination of the verbal and noun uses of apostasy in the NT that do not refer to those who had a lack of saving faith. In fact, the word 'apostasy' means: 'The abandonment of a religious or political belief or principle' (Oxford dictionaries online). One cannot commit apostasy if one does not already have a saving faith. To 'abandon' a faith means that you had it in the first place to be able to abandon it.

Could it be that you are stuck in the groove of eternal security (as I was for many years of my faith as a Baptist) and could not see these verses that affirm the possibility of apostasy -- falling away from a genuine faith?

Oz,

I have no disagreement of Kittle's definition, yet you have loaded your opinion into the definition. One can abandon a religious belief system without holding belief in the system at all. Some who are counted by the world as Christians do not believe in the resurrection; they say it is to be understood spiritually. Cultural Christians continually "leave the faith" where they never had a saving faith at one point in their life. This also dovetails with another point I made about getting behind Paul's meaning behind leaving the faith. Apparently through your reading you have preloaded your assumption they were included in God's plan for salvation but they thwarted God's plan and went apostate. Yet from God's perspective they were never intended or included in salvation and His plan was never thwarted. Perhaps they had some form of belief or faith, yet they never had saving faith. These never had salvation and then lost it because God was never saving them. Saving faith is only effective and efficient. Saving faith never fails because it is saving. Saving faith is as sure as God's promises.

Allow me to illustrate. Lets say we are reviewing a marathon. Lets say in this marathon only two people finished the race, while the rest abandoned due to exhaustion. Only the two would we call finishers while all we would call participants. Only these two can we say they had the finish line from the beginning of the race. So it is with salvation. Only those who have the finish line from the beginning have salvation. Salvation is not something that can be lost, it can only be gained. Salvation is not given to those who do not abide in Christ so why would we say the apostate ever had it to begin with?

Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


I am not getting into a study of epistemology yet there is something valid here also. Notice it says believe in your heart. Some can know all the doctrines, be able to recite scriptures verbatim both KJV and NIV, and be able to explain the concept of the Trinity so even the most inept can get handles on it, yet not believe in their heart. Intellectual knowledge is not the same as believing in your heart. Many never allow their faith to make the leap from their head to their heart.

My contention is we know an apostate's belief never made it to their heart because they are apostate. You can say well you don't know their heart yet that statement applies in the reverse also. The evidence is in my favor though and this denies your ability to say they had salvation then lost it. Expanding a bit here, how can you say they ever possessed salvation if you don't know their heart?


So then here are the questions again.

Does God begin saving those He knows will go apostate?
Does God seal eventual apostates with the Holy Spirit?

 

[ATP]

Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


I am not getting into a study of epistemology yet there is something valid here also. Notice it says believe in your heart. Some can know all the doctrines, be able to recite scriptures verbatim both KJV and NIV, and be able to explain the concept of the Trinity so even the most inept can get handles on it, yet not believe in their heart. Intellectual knowledge is not the same as believing in your heart. Many never allow their faith to make the leap from their head to their heart.

Bingo. Many will confess with their mouth but not believe in their heart.

 

[brakelite]

The word apostate has within itself the connotation of 'divorce'. Any divorce is of necessity a break in a previously held union or relationship does it not? I appreciate that there are far more learned and educated than myself in here, so will happily acquiesce to your more scholastic understanding...but that is how I understand the issue.

 

[Phoneman777]

Thanks, Butch.

I've started the thread at: 'Logical fallacies high jack discussions'. Sadly, I have committed the error of misspelling hijack as 'high jack'. It was my faulty thinking of the moment.

The thread will not go anywhere unless people like you and me engage in pursuing the topic in the thread. Many Christians are oblivious to the damage that logical fallacies do. Many don't know it when they use them.

Oz

I''m not a grammar Nazi but I immediately thought "high jack"? LOL

 

[ATP]

That fallacious argument and red herring stuff I believe is from the devil. Antichrist system. It's a reason to avoid confrontation.

 

[Barrd]

However, could rewards be related to the Holy Spirit's fruit in our lives?

I suppose so, Oz...but still, shouldn't the joy be in just pleasing the Lord?

Since faith without works is dead - is not fair dinkum faith at all - then it is necessary in the Christian life to pursue works to demonstrate our real faith. The ESV translates as 'faith apart from works is dead' (James 2;26 ESV). James 2:18 ESV states:

So, living faith will produce works, the same way that a living vine will produce fruit.
Yes...but I don't think the vine concerns itself about rewards...all it asks is a bit of care.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

That gives every reason to engage in works (that will result in rewards).

Oz...I never said that there shouldn't be rewards.
I said that, for me, at least, being near Jesus would be all the reward I would desire. Should I, against all odds, happen to merit a crown, that crown would be laid at His feet.

 

[ATP]

The word apostate has within itself the connotation of 'divorce'. Any divorce is of necessity a break in a previously held union or relationship does it not? I appreciate that there are far more learned and educated than myself in here, so will happily acquiesce to your more scholastic understanding...but that is how I understand the issue.

Do you have scripture to prove we can lose our salvation.

 

[Barrd]

I''m not a grammar Nazi but I immediately thought "high jack"? LOL

Hi, Jack!
(sorry)

 

[ATP]

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Good post.

 

[ATP]

James 2:23 NIV And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

 

[brakelite]

In addition, I bear personal testimony to a period in my life where I abandoned my faith ( a faith I assure you was indeed saving faith which went far deeper than the simple 'head knowledge' spoken of here) and returned to a world of sin and ungodliness. Many factors likely contributed to this including church teachings and personal issues. Although never losing faith in the existence of God, I knew full well at the time that I was not living in accordance to God's will and thus stood under condemnation for unrepented sins. _
After several years I returned wholly to Jesus and the last 18 years of my life have never looked back, but know in my heart that so long as I remain faithful and abide in my Savior, He will remain faithful as He always was and never fully let me go. His faithfulness however will never negate my personal freewill and power of choice.
my choices may be bad ones, and separate me from my God, but He has promised never to forsake me. So like previously, He always makes Himself available and an ever present help and Savior when needed, but only on condition of repentance. Always on condition of repentance. Any continuing unrepented sin is never 'covered' by the blood of Jesus, whether committed by the Christian or not. Just as sin brought death to Adam and Eve and expulsion from the garden, so sin will bring the same to the modern believer...exclusion from paradise and his namr blotted out from the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Phoneman777]

Saving faith is only effective and efficient. Saving faith never fails because it is saving. Saving faith is as sure as God's promises.

"Saving Faith" is "Living Faith" while Dead Faith is faith without works which OSAS seeks to establish as a means to obtain that which can only be obtained by Living (Saving) Faith: Eternal Life.

You can bet that the Unmerciful Servant had faith he was forgiven of his debt and believed in the freedom which came at such great expense (10,000 talents) to his lord but found himself once again condemned to pay back the very debt for which he was originally forgiven because he failed to continue in Living Faith and crucify the old man of unforgiveness. Jesus said so shall the Father do to all those who do the same.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi, Jack!
(sorry)

Epic face palm in 3...2...1....

 

[justaname]

In addition, I bear personal testimony to a period in my life where I abandoned my faith ( a faith I assure you was indeed saving faith which went far deeper than the simple 'head knowledge' spoken of here) and returned to a world of sin and ungodliness. Many factors likely contributed to this including church teachings and personal issues. Although never losing faith in the existence of God, I knew full well at the time that I was not living in accordance to God's will and thus stood under condemnation for unrepented sins. _
After several years I returned wholly to Jesus and the last 18 years of my life have never looked back, but know in my heart that so long as I remain faithful and abide in my Savior, He will remain faithful as He always was and never fully let me go. His faithfulness however will never negate my personal freewill and power of choice.
my choices may be bad ones, and separate me from my God, but He has promised never to forsake me. So like previously, He always makes Himself available and an ever present help and Savior when needed, but only on condition of repentance. Always on condition of repentance. Any continuing unrepented sin is never 'covered' by the blood of Jesus, whether committed by the Christian or not. Just as sin brought death to Adam and Eve and expulsion from the garden, so sin will bring the same to the modern believer...exclusion from paradise and his namr blotted out from the Lamb's book of life.

This is a description of the term "backsliding" not "losing salvation".

 

[justaname]

"Saving Faith" is "Living Faith" while Dead Faith is faith without works which OSAS seeks to establish as a means to obtain that which can only be obtained by Living (Saving) Faith: Eternal Life.

You can bet that the Unmerciful Servant had faith he was forgiven of his debt and believed in the freedom which came at such great expense (10,000 talents) to his lord but found himself once again condemned to pay back the very debt for which he was originally forgiven because he failed to continue in Living Faith and crucify the old man of unforgiveness. Jesus said so shall the Father do to all those who do the same.

Can you support your first statement with evidence? Most importantly that OSAS seeks to establish dead faith as a means to obtain eternal life.

 

[ATP]

I knew full well at the time that I was not living in accordance to God's will and thus stood under condemnation for unrepented sins. _

Brother,

scripture teaches us that we are no longer condemned because of the blood of Jesus..Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

Any continuing unrepented sin is never 'covered' by the blood of Jesus,

How is that so, scripture teaches us that Jesus died for all sins, even future sins...Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV...What is the "seed" and the "truth" referring to here...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Just as sin brought death to Adam and Eve and expulsion from the garden, so sin will bring the same to the modern believer...exclusion from paradise and his namr blotted out from the Lamb's book of life.

But doesn't the believer live again...

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.