The Doctrine of OSAS

[Butch5]

That is sad because all I've been doing is feeding you truth day after day, and still nothing. Makes me wonder Barrd.

ATP, seriously, you've presented so many fallacies. This is a serious question, why do you refuse to acknowledge this fact? It's been pointed out numerous times and you keep doing it. Jesus said He is the truth.As Christians we should be seeking the truth. We can't find truth while accepting fallacies, so why won't you address this?

 

[Butch5]

Thanks, mate!

You're welcome!

 

[OzSpen]

ATP, seriously, you've presented so many fallacies. This is a serious question, why do you refuse to acknowledge this fact? It's been pointed out numerous times and you keep doing it. Jesus said He is the truth.As Christians we should be seeking the truth. We can't find truth while accepting fallacies, so why won't you address this?

Many of us can be guilty of using logical fallacies. I have found this helpful list of them with excellent descriptions of each one (along with examples) in The Nizkor Project: Fallacies.

I've mentioned it a few times in my responses that when we use logical fallacies, we are using illogic or fallacious reasoning. This means that reasonable conversation is torn asunder.

Oz

 

[ATP]

ATP, seriously, you've presented so many fallacies. This is a serious question, why do you refuse to acknowledge this fact? It's been pointed out numerous times and you keep doing it. Jesus said He is the truth.As Christians we should be seeking the truth. We can't find truth while accepting fallacies, so why won't you address this?

Jesus died for all sins Butch. Most won't accept what He did.

 

[Phoneman777]

Would someone explain what's so hard about OSAS? I mean, all I have to do is believe that Jesus died for my sins and I can live anyway I want and still go to heaven. That's got to be the easiest thing that anyone could ever do, aside from changing the channel when Barry "I need a teleprompter when giving a speech to kindergarteners" Obama comes on.

 

[ATP]

Would someone explain what's so hard about OSAS? I mean, all I have to do is believe that Jesus died for my sins and I can live anyway I want and still go to heaven. That's got to be the easiest thing that anyone could ever do, aside from changing the channel when Barry "I need a teleprompter when giving a speech to kindergarteners" Obama comes on.

Hi Phoneman. Welcome back. My question is, how can we lose our salvation when the seed of God remains in us forever.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

 

[ATP]

Would someone explain what's so hard about OSAS? I mean, all I have to do is believe that Jesus died for my sins and I can live anyway I want and still go to heaven.

OSAS doesn't preach faith without works, rather...

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

 

[Butch5]

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The day of redemption here means apolutrósis, a release effected by payment of ransom. When we die and meet the Lord at the first resurrection, the Lord will grant us release and deliverance from our sin nature inside a sinful world. We are sealed from God the Father until that time comes.

That's a nice thought but not what the Scriptures say. Paul said, "the wages of sin is death". Christians sin, and they pay the price, they die. However, notice that Paul said the "wages" of sin, not the payment for sin. When one sins they earn death.

 

[ATP]

That's a nice thought but not what the Scriptures say. Paul said, "the wages of sin is death". Christians sin, and they pay the price, they die. However, notice that Paul said the "wages" of sin, not the payment for sin. When one sins they earn death.

But aren't Christians raised to life again?

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus died for all sins Butch. Most won't accept what He did.

Still avoiding the issue.

 

[ATP]

Still avoiding the issue.

How so.

 

[Butch5]

Many of us can be guilty of using logical fallacies. I have found this helpful list of them with excellent descriptions of each one (along with examples) in The Nizkor Project: Fallacies.

I've mentioned it a few times in my responses that when we use logical fallacies, we are using illogic or fallacious reasoning. This means that reasonable conversation is torn asunder.

Oz

HI Oz,

I'm familiar with that page and do visit it. I agree that we may all reason improperly at times. However, i would submit that this is more serious for the Christian. Laws of logic are a part of the created order. The Scriptures tell us that God cannot deny Himself. Being logical is part of who God is, thus it behooves the Christian to think in a logical manner. After all we are called to be imitators of God. When we use illogical arguments were are actually doing the opposite of imitating God. I am concerned when Christians ignore this fact and continue to argue illogically. I have to wonder why someone would do this.

 

[Butch5]

How so.

Why do you ignore the fact that your arguments are fallacious?

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi ATP,

Im with you on this one, there are many troubled by their sins, why??

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Still trying to find one who beleievs God unto salvation, seems there is a total lack of faith in God and teh good works that Christ did, as if somehow mankind can make himself perfect.
Did Jesus die for your sins or did he not, are you born of God or still walking in the flesh. If you have truly come to Christ, if God has planted His seed in you, than that seed can only bring life, if than you have now put on the righteousness of Christ, is it not in His interset to help you deal with your flesh as so many keep telling me, can Christ reject Himself, can God cast out God. there is only one way to loose ones salvation that I can see and that is to reject Jesus and God.

Maybe it is because so many are stil lwalking aftyer the flesh and being judged.

and I can live anyway I want

Where is thy faith, oh how satan has you twisted around his finger beguiling you, twisting the words to bring you all under the law and so by doing rejecting the good works of Christ because of unbeleif in the Power of God.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

My salvation is sure as Christ died for me, no longer wilI let that devil steal my peace.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

My faith is sure and secure in teh power of God and Christ and His resurection unto salvation and eternal life not mans foolis reasoing and wisdom to death.

In all his Love

 

[ATP]

The Scriptures tell us that God cannot deny Himself.

Correct..2 Tim 2:13 NIV if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Why do you ignore the fact that your arguments are fallacious?

Do you deny the scriptures where it says Jesus died for all sins? It's ok to admit it. That's how we learn...

Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

 

[ATP]

Hi ATP,

Im with you on this one, there are many troubled by their sins, why??

If you have truly come to Christ, if God has planted His seed in you, than that seed can only bring life,

Amen mjr. Welcome back ...1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[OzSpen]

HI Oz,

I'm familiar with that page and do visit it. I agree that we may all reason improperly at times. However, i would submit that this is more serious for the Christian. Laws of logic are a part of the created order. The Scriptures tell us that God cannot deny Himself. Being logical is part of who God is, thus it behooves the Christian to think in a logical manner. After all we are called to be imitators of God. When we use illogical arguments were are actually doing the opposite of imitating God. I am concerned when Christians ignore this fact and continue to argue illogically. I have to wonder why someone would do this.

I agree that God created the laws of logic and gave a logical demonstration of them by making his laws and teaching available in printed form - using the laws of logic.

However, the use of logical fallacies in the pulpit, on Christian forums, and in Christian discussion is a serious issue because of the falsehood (i.e. fallacious reasoning) it promotes. Perhaps if we used language such as, 'When you use logical fallacies, you are promoting lies of logic', people might understand us better. God uses the laws of correct logic in giving us the Scriptures. It is we who violate these laws when we use logical fallacies.

A friend who attends my church is a lecturer in IT at a local university. He has told me that logical fallacies are rife in the university setting, especially with students but also with faculty.

Why don't we start a new thread dealing with how Christians often use logical fallacies without knowing what they are doing and how this sabotages logical discussion?

Oz

 

[ATP]

 

[Butch5]

I agree that God created the laws of logic and gave a logical demonstration of them by making his laws and teaching available in printed form - using the laws of logic.

However, the use of logical fallacies in the pulpit, on Christian forums, and in Christian discussion is a serious issue because of the falsehood (i.e. fallacious reasoning) it promotes. Perhaps if we used language such as, 'When you use logical fallacies, you are promoting lies of logic', people might understand us better. God uses the laws of correct logic in giving us the Scriptures. It is we who violate these laws when we use logical fallacies.

A friend who attends my church is a lecturer in IT at a local university. He has told me that logical fallacies are rife in the university setting, especially with students but also with faculty.

Why don't we start a new thread dealing with how Christians often use logical fallacies without knowing what they are doing and how this sabotages logical discussion?

I agree wholeheartedly! It seems no matter where you go people don't reason correctly. I see, it from all kinds of people. There is a problem with Christians in particular doing it because they claim to speaking truth when in reality they aren't. What is even more disconcerting is a refusal to acknowledge it. You can start a thread but I don't think many will care. If they don't acknowledge it in debate I doubt they will in a thread dedicated to the subject. However, maybe just for fun try it and see. I've thought about it several times, but just didn't think it would go anywhere.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi Phoneman. Welcome back. My question is, how can we lose our salvation when the seed of God remains in us forever.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

You always fail to see that the multitude of promises that you post are CONDITIONAL. We can only claim such promises as long as we choose to remain surrendered to Him. His seed remains in any of us who do not cast it away from us by returning to a life of sin.