The Doctrine of OSAS

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ATP

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H. Richard said:
I would like to make a comment here about faith without works is dead.

James, a Jew under the law of Moses wrote this statement to the Jews (James 1:1). It sows confusion if it is applied to those under grace.

Under the law of Moses if a person did not do the requirements of the law of Moses then his/her faith in the requirements of the law of Moses is certainly dead.

But under grace the law does not apply. Under grace faith, belief, trust, and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross is all that is required for salvation. A person either believes this or doesn't believe it. If a person does not believe it then that person is committing the sin of unbelief just as the Jews did when God told them they could enter into the promised land and He (God) would drive the people there out. The Jews did not believe God and God made then wander in the wilderness for 40 years.

It is a terrible thing to not believe what God says.
This is indeed true. We are only believing once for eternal life Rom 10:9 NIV, John 6:47 NIV. :)
 

justaname

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The Barrd said:
Since neither one of us can see into a man's heart, it seems to me that we ought to give people the benefit of the doubt.
Again, if someone says to me that they have a heart-felt faith, since I cannot see his heart and know for sure whether he does or not, I tend to believe him. Why would I doubt him? It seems to me that Christianity, as taught by Jesus Christ, demands that I do not make such judgments.

As has been pointed out, one cannot desert something they never had. To be an apostate, one must have once had real faith.

Jonathon Edwards was just a man, like you and I...well, I'm a woman, but you know what I mean. He may have been a great preacher...but even he could not see into a man's heart. I'm not going to go and look up and try to read some long, boring treatise on Jon's notions about "free will"....it would be a major waste of my time.


The Bible is chock full of stories of people who exercised their free will to rebel against God, beginning with Adam and Eve. According to my Bible, Adam and Eve knew God personally...God walked and talked with them regularly...and yet, they still rebelled. Are you going to tell me that they did not have "heart-faith"?

(copied from an earlier post)
And yes, free will could also be called rebellion. Remember the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? Did they have free will?
And again, did Abraham have free will? He chose to do as God had asked him to do. And Moses...as I recall, he did a bit of squirming when God first told him what He wanted him to do...but in the end, he chose to obey. Others chose to rebel...for instance, the guy who tried to gather manna on the Sabbath day, after Moses had told the people that there wouldn't be any...or those priests who offered "strange fire" to God (I always wondered about that.)
Anyway, all through the Bible, people have demonstrated their free will.
If I told you I really don't want to do any harm to anyone and I was an abortion doctor would you believe me also? The point being actions speak louder than words. An apostate is apostate with their actions speaking loudly. If you want to just believe whatever anyone tells you this is fine. Yet I wonder, why would you believe a non-believer in issues of salvation and faith?

Jonathan Edwards definition: the ability to choose as one pleases. Here is an excerpt from a website...

In summary of Edwards’ view of free will, he believes that man is free in that he can and does choose according to his strongest inclinations — his desires. But because of original sin and the resulting corruption of humanity, no one is naturally inclined godward. In fact, we hate God by nature. We have the natural ability to please him but we lack the moral ability. Our nature has to be changed if we are to seek God and do what he pleases. And only God can liberate the sinner from his captivity to that which is destroying him, namely, his freedom!

http://www.thirdmill.org/files/english/html/th/TH.h.Tchividjian.Edwards%20and%20Free%20Will.html


Now this is valid and relevant. In the case of the apostate, their nature is not inclined godward. Their nature is not changed in order to please God. What makes you think it ever was simply because they say so?
 

Barrd

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justaname said:
If I told you I really don't want to do any harm to anyone and I was an abortion doctor would you believe me also? The point being actions speak louder than words. An apostate is apostate with their actions speaking loudly. If you want to just believe whatever anyone tells you this is fine. Yet I wonder, why would you believe a non-believer in issues of salvation and faith?
If you were an abortion doctor who told me that, I would believe that it was not your intention to do any harm to anyone. I would surmise that your were laboring under the misconception that an unborn baby isn't human...lots of pro-choice people actually do believe that. I would probably try to point out to you, from your own science, that the baby is indeed, human, and thus, you are taking human lives.
The point being that we cannot judge by actions alone, as we can't see into the person's heart to see what their intentions actually are.
If someone tells me that the faith they once had was in their heart, why should I not believe him/her? Surely that person knows his/her own heart better than I do.

Jonathan Edwards definition: the ability to choose as one pleases. Here is an excerpt from a website...

In summary of Edwards’ view of free will, he believes that man is free in that he can and does choose according to his strongest inclinations — his desires. But because of original sin and the resulting corruption of humanity, no one is naturally inclined godward. In fact, we hate God by nature. We have the natural ability to please him but we lack the moral ability. Our nature has to be changed if we are to seek God and do what he pleases. And only God can liberate the sinner from his captivity to that which is destroying him, namely, his freedom!

http://www.thirdmill.org/files/english/html/th/TH.h.Tchividjian.Edwards%20and%20Free%20Will.html
So, Jon doesn't think that we can learn about Jesus and love Him?
I'm afraid Jon and I do not agree.
Will you tell him that for me next time you see him?


Now this is valid and relevant. In the case of the apostate, their nature is not inclined godward. Their nature is not changed in order to please God. What makes you think it ever was simply because they say so?
Because they would know their own heart much better than I would.
Because I have no basis to judge them on.
Because only God can know their hearts.
Because...

Wait....didn't I already say all of this?
 

justaname

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The Barrd said:
If you were an abortion doctor who told me that, I would believe that it was not your intention to do any harm to anyone. I would surmise that your were laboring under the misconception that an unborn baby isn't human...lots of pro-choice people actually do believe that. I would probably try to point out to you, from your own science, that the baby is indeed, human, and thus, you are taking human lives.
The point being that we cannot judge by actions alone, as we can't see into the person's heart to see what their intentions actually are.
If someone tells me that the faith they once had was in their heart, why should I not believe him/her? Surely that person knows his/her own heart better than I do.


So, Jon doesn't think that we can learn about Jesus and love Him?
I'm afraid Jon and I do not agree.
Will you tell him that for me next time you see him?


Because they would know their own heart much better than I would.
Because I have no basis to judge them on.
Because only God can know their hearts.
Because...

Wait....didn't I already say all of this?
So why would you judge their hearts to think God was saving them even though they are apostate.... ^_^

Also you have a misconception about Jon...
 

ATP

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Matt 24:12 NIV agape love is quenched, not lost.

Neither present nor future will be able to separate the elect from agape love..

Rom 8:33 ESV Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Rom 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What does it mean to be "in Christ Jesus our Lord" in Rom 8:39 ESV...

Rom 5:5 NIV And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Rom 8:1 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

1 Cor 1:30 NIV It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

- ATP
 

ATP

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Agape love...

Rom 8:35 NIV Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
 

Barrd

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justaname said:
So why would you judge their hearts to think God was saving them even though they are apostate.... ^_^
First of all, God is not currently saving anyone.
He died to save the world on Calvary over 2000 years ago. That job is finished. The price was paid, and the gift was given.
All that remains is for us to accept it.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And secondly, I am not judging their hearts at all. You are the one who is doing that.
I am merely taking them at their word.


Also you have a misconception about Jon...
Perhaps. I can only go by what you tell me, I don't know the guy personally. For all I know, he might be a great guy.
However, if he thinks we can't learn about Jesus Christ and come to love Him all on our own, I would say that he is sadly mistaken.
Further, I would contend that he has no more idea what might be in someone else's heart than you or I.
 

ATP

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Agape love...

Rom 11:28-29 NIV As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
 
B

brakelite

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It seems that the proponents of OSAS would claim that I was not truly a Christian before returning to a life of ungodliness and apostasy. The situation I speak of is not one I remember with pride, but with embarrassment and shame...however, from one perspective of hindsight I can claim that in accordance with Romans 8:28 things turned out better in the long run, both for me and my family. Here is my testimony of my first new birth...if after reading this you still say that my conversion was not real, then this conversation is of no value to anybody when our personal testimonies are not believed.
Nearly forty years ago at age 24, after too many years spent in quiet but determined refusal to acknowledge or consider God, His ways or His people, and imbibing in practices and substances and a lifestyle which pleased me well, but impinged greatly on other’s rights and freedoms, I was asked a question that challenged me to the core.
“Do you think the life you are leading is pleasing to God?”
Today, after all these years, I like to think that my immediate response was a humble expression tending toward the negative, however, in light of what transpired later in the evening, I think that possibly my response initially may have been more of a non-committal grunt. To be honest, I can’t even remember how I responded at first, if at all. I was at that time in no mood to consider religion, I was quite content with my life, or so I thought thank-you very much. I was happily single and had a well paying job; for my home a little cottage in the country side adjacent to some of the best surf beaches in New Zealand ; I was debt free and little or no responsibilities and parked outside was a vehicle of no mean repute to get me anywhere I wanted to go. Life was good. For what purpose did I need God?
Several hours later however the question still rang in my ears. Was God pleased with the way I was living? Well, was He? The question kept hammering at my brain until I began asking it myself. I think it was at that moment that God knew that He had me. Because until that time, I didn’t need to answer the question if I didn’t want to. But the moment I began asking it of myself, it demanded a reply. And because of the importance of the question, it demanded an intelligent and honest reply. And the answer was simply no. Not by any stretch of the imagination, nor by any indulgence in mental or spiritual gymnastics, could I rightly and honestly justify my behavior or lifestyle before a holy and righteous God. And it was as I was laying on my back contemplating these things that very night when I admitted as much. I took a long and honest look at myself and didn’t like what I saw. So I asked God for His forgiveness, and to make my life something that He could attach His name to without being ashamed. You see, until that night if anyone had asked me if I was a Christian, I would have replied in the affirmative. I believed in God. Sure, I had done a few things wrong, but I hadn’t killed anyone. At least not yet. I wasn’t that bad. I was judging myself however by human standards. For a while I thought I could ignore the question; there had been in the past the odd moment that such religious conversations had come up on the beach, in the pub, at work, but I dutifully ignored them and by and by they would slip away into forgetfulness until the next time. This time however it didn’t go away. There was no-one else present to talk to to distract me. The surf was non-existent. As far as human companionship was concerned, I was alone, with only that question rattling around inside of me for company.
I had grown up in a church which taught auricular confession to a priest. There was no priest there that night. Just me and God. As far as I can remember, I didn’t confess any specific sin. Rather, I confessed my entire lifestyle. As I surveyed my past years, I could think of nothing good to commend it. No mitigating circumstances to lessen the guilt of a life devoid of godliness, a life empty of any spiritual worth. I have come to realize since, and the scriptures teach the same, that a life without God is a life of death. It is a life without hope, a life without substance.
Why did God choose to come to me that day, and issue me with that challenge? I don’t know, but perhaps He knew something I didn’t. That deep down I knew, if I was willing to be honest, that I wanted something better. Something other than the superficial. Something more than window dressing and good-times. I suppose my prayer that night, as far as prayers go, was fairly simple. Nothing ornate, or even overly religious. I wasn’t kneeling, I wasn’t in church, I didn’t own nor had ever read a Bible; just a simple “Please make my life one that you would approve of.”
I didn’t know what to expect as a result of that prayer. I wasn’t even giving that any consideration. My focus was being honest with God, and giving Him the opportunity to do whatever He needed to do. How He did it, and when, was up to Him. What did happen though would have been the last thing I expected if I had thought about it. The moment that prayer was uttered God personally stepped into my room, and into my life. My confession and admission of guilt was all the reason and excuse He needed to flood my room with His love, and to tell me I was forgiven. Not with words, because He didn’t need to speak. I knew. His presence was powerful, palpable, and very, very real. Have you ever been bear-hugged by love itself? I wept with joy for several hours until I fell asleep, and awoke in the morning a different person.
My entire view of life radically changed. From that first morning I began to hate the things I once loved, and loved the things I once hated. I was born again.
 

ATP

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Agape love...

John 17:26 NIV I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Col 1:3-5 NIV We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints--5 the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel
 

ATP

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Agape love...

Eph 1:4-5 NIV For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

2 Cor 5:14-15 NIV For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
 

Barrd

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brakelite said:
It seems that the proponents of OSAS would claim that I was not truly a Christian before returning to a life of ungodliness and apostasy. The situation I speak of is not one I remember with pride, but with embarrassment and shame...however, from one perspective of hindsight I can claim that in accordance with Romans 8:28 things turned out better in the long run, both for me and my family. Here is my testimony of my first new birth...if after reading this you still say that my conversion was not real, then this conversation is of no value to anybody when our personal testimonies are not believed.
Nearly forty years ago at age 24, after too many years spent in quiet but determined refusal to acknowledge or consider God, His ways or His people, and imbibing in practices and substances and a lifestyle which pleased me well, but impinged greatly on other’s rights and freedoms, I was asked a question that challenged me to the core.
“Do you think the life you are leading is pleasing to God?”
Today, after all these years, I like to think that my immediate response was a humble expression tending toward the negative, however, in light of what transpired later in the evening, I think that possibly my response initially may have been more of a non-committal grunt. To be honest, I can’t even remember how I responded at first, if at all. I was at that time in no mood to consider religion, I was quite content with my life, or so I thought thank-you very much. I was happily single and had a well paying job; for my home a little cottage in the country side adjacent to some of the best surf beaches in New Zealand ; I was debt free and little or no responsibilities and parked outside was a vehicle of no mean repute to get me anywhere I wanted to go. Life was good. For what purpose did I need God?
Several hours later however the question still rang in my ears. Was God pleased with the way I was living? Well, was He? The question kept hammering at my brain until I began asking it myself. I think it was at that moment that God knew that He had me. Because until that time, I didn’t need to answer the question if I didn’t want to. But the moment I began asking it of myself, it demanded a reply. And because of the importance of the question, it demanded an intelligent and honest reply. And the answer was simply no. Not by any stretch of the imagination, nor by any indulgence in mental or spiritual gymnastics, could I rightly and honestly justify my behavior or lifestyle before a holy and righteous God. And it was as I was laying on my back contemplating these things that very night when I admitted as much. I took a long and honest look at myself and didn’t like what I saw. So I asked God for His forgiveness, and to make my life something that He could attach His name to without being ashamed. You see, until that night if anyone had asked me if I was a Christian, I would have replied in the affirmative. I believed in God. Sure, I had done a few things wrong, but I hadn’t killed anyone. At least not yet. I wasn’t that bad. I was judging myself however by human standards. For a while I thought I could ignore the question; there had been in the past the odd moment that such religious conversations had come up on the beach, in the pub, at work, but I dutifully ignored them and by and by they would slip away into forgetfulness until the next time. This time however it didn’t go away. There was no-one else present to talk to to distract me. The surf was non-existent. As far as human companionship was concerned, I was alone, with only that question rattling around inside of me for company.
I had grown up in a church which taught auricular confession to a priest. There was no priest there that night. Just me and God. As far as I can remember, I didn’t confess any specific sin. Rather, I confessed my entire lifestyle. As I surveyed my past years, I could think of nothing good to commend it. No mitigating circumstances to lessen the guilt of a life devoid of godliness, a life empty of any spiritual worth. I have come to realize since, and the scriptures teach the same, that a life without God is a life of death. It is a life without hope, a life without substance.
Why did God choose to come to me that day, and issue me with that challenge? I don’t know, but perhaps He knew something I didn’t. That deep down I knew, if I was willing to be honest, that I wanted something better. Something other than the superficial. Something more than window dressing and good-times. I suppose my prayer that night, as far as prayers go, was fairly simple. Nothing ornate, or even overly religious. I wasn’t kneeling, I wasn’t in church, I didn’t own nor had ever read a Bible; just a simple “Please make my life one that you would approve of.”
I didn’t know what to expect as a result of that prayer. I wasn’t even giving that any consideration. My focus was being honest with God, and giving Him the opportunity to do whatever He needed to do. How He did it, and when, was up to Him. What did happen though would have been the last thing I expected if I had thought about it. The moment that prayer was uttered God personally stepped into my room, and into my life. My confession and admission of guilt was all the reason and excuse He needed to flood my room with His love, and to tell me I was forgiven. Not with words, because He didn’t need to speak. I knew. His presence was powerful, palpable, and very, very real. Have you ever been bear-hugged by love itself? I wept with joy for several hours until I fell asleep, and awoke in the morning a different person.
My entire view of life radically changed. From that first morning I began to hate the things I once loved, and loved the things I once hated. I was born again.
Brakelite, that took a lot of guts. You have me in tears here, my dear, dear brother.
It wasn't that long ago that I also bared my soul in this forum. I revealed my own "dark night of the soul".
It was several years after my husband died...I had worked, and worked hard, sometimes from before dawn till after dark, trying to keep my brood together, and get me some skill that would make me employable. I had gotten an Associates in Legal Studies...enough to qualify me as a Certified Legal Assistant...a career I thought would be interesting, and my credits were transferable, should I ever get the urge...
I got a good job that set me free from the back breaking dawn to dusk scrabbling and gave me a bit of dignity...bought me some fancy downtown office duds (though I never did get the knack of walking in those ---- high heels....I'm sure those torture devices were not invented by women...perhaps some oriental sadist...
But I digress.
Once I got myself settled, and the kids were used to having a Mom again, and I began to have a bit of time to contemplate the roses....I met him. He asked me out. At first, I refused. It just didn't "feel right". But then, my husband was dead....and he wasn't coming back. It couldn't be wrong to get to know a few men...maybe...just maybe...I might fall in love again.
So I accepted, and he took me out for dinner and a movie....and that was the beginning.
As you probably guessed, we had an affair. And I thought I was in love. We began talking about marriage....and then, he revealed his big secret.
He was married.
He would leave her for me, he promised. After all, his kids (KIDS?!?) were just about grown...they didn't really need him any more, and...but I couldn't hear any more.
I tried to convince myself that I was innocent...after all, I hadn't known. But God wasn't having any.
Count one....I had known him for over a year, and I had never been to his home, or asked about his life away from me and my kids. I realized that I had always suspected that he had a secret....and I didn't want to find out what it was.
Count two...I had allowed myself to be seduced...worse! I had co-operated in the seduction! But I knew that sex outside of marriage was a sin!
I tried to convince myself that I had thought we were in a committed relationship, and after all, God did not require a marriage license, but again, God wasn't having any.
No matter how I tried to squirm, it was no use. I had sinned...willfully and knowingly, I had turned my back on God, choosing instead to please my flesh. The truth was that, from the time this man had come into my life, I had put God in the sock drawer and forgot about Him. We hadn't even discussed our religion. I didn't even know if my lover even believed in God, because the subject had never come up. It just hadn't seemed important at the time.
I had been lost, and I hadn't even realized it. If I had died....it doesn't even bear thinking about.
I even tried to reason how I could continue in the relationship...but...well, you know the answer. God wasn't having any.
My lover had to go.
It wasn't easy....I had been so lonely before I met him, and I really think he did love me, in his own way...but he had a wife and kids, and that was that.
Like you, I said my prayer...and like you, I felt that cosmic hug.
Like you, I know from my own bitter experience that OSAS is a lie.
 

ATP

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The Barrd said:
Like you, I know from my own bitter experience that OSAS is a lie.
..and yet agape love will never separate the elect from God Rom 8:33, 38-39 ESV. It's time for coffee, maybe tomorrow.
 

mjrhealth

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Not with words, because He didn’t need to speak. I knew. His presence was powerful, palpable, and very, very real. Have you ever been bear-hugged by love itself? I wept with joy for several hours until I fell asleep, and awoke in the morning a different person.
My entire view of life radically changed. From that first morning I began to hate the things I once loved, and loved the things I once hated. I was born again.
Amen, and once He has you He will never turn His back on you, it is done.
 
B

brakelite

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thanks Barrd for sharing. Is it not wonderful however that despite our waywardness, God does remain faithful to the extent that He does not give us up to our weakness but patiently waits for us to hear His loving, yes ATP, agape loving whispers to bring us to repentance. But if we choose to block our ears to His entreaties then our spurning of His offer of life through our continuing transgression against His laws can and will lead to our eternal destruction. As it was in the past...as it is in the present...as it always will be...God's grace, mercy, and salvation is dependent upon our repentance.

Isaiah 1:16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it
 

Dave24

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2 Timothy 3:16. Why do i quote this scripture, because everything written in the bible is for our benefit. Although we will always sin in this lifetime, the bible clearly shows us which sins would lead to our destruction. The bible in it's whole does not agree with OSAS...
 
B

brakelite

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mjrhealth said:
Amen, and once He has you He will never turn His back on you, it is done.
That is true mjr...even though I walked away from Him through my sin...through my returning to the vomit that Jesus had through His blood cleansed me from...and through my rebelliousness in imbibing once again in the ugliness of a life I had been previously delivered from...not just the odd transgression, but returning to a lifestyle totally in keeping with an unbeliever...it is true that God did not turn His back on me....but I needed to repent once again of a lot of stuff, including neglect of my responsibility in raising my children in the ways of God, before I could consider myself on the narrow road I once knew.