The Doctrine of OSAS

[justaname]

One thing we are going to have to make perfectly clear before we go any further at all.
And that is that the one and only authority I am ever going to accept is going to be the Bible...and only the Bible.
It's no use sending me to various websites to read these long posts that you think prove your point, because
a. I don't really care to read someone else's opinion, regardless of how "scholarly" they are...I have the evidence right before my eyes that you scholarly types don't agree among yourselves, anyway.
b. If I were so inclined, and willing to do the work (which I am not), I'm fairly sure I could pull up as many scholarly web sites that support my own position.
c. I have my own Bible, I can read, and while I don't have a degree, I'm not exactly stupid. As a matter of fact, when I was tested not long ago, I scored pretty high. Not a genius, maybe...but a pretty good bit above what is considered "normal".


What I actually said was that our salvation has already been secured. Jesus paid the full price for it. The completely paid-for gift is available to whoever will accept it. If you accept it, then it belongs to you...you do not need to continue "being saved" on a daily basis...however, like any gift, you do need to maintain your salvation, which is what those verses you posted are referring to.

What we are debating here is whether or not a person can lose his salvation, and my contention is that he can, if he fails to maintain it.
Which contention you actually just proved, although I'm pretty sure you didn't intend to, and have not realized yet that you have done so.

As for dear Jon, God rest his soul, all I said was that he could be wrong. We can, and do, come to love the Lord Jesus Christ through learning about Him.
We come to Him through our own free will. God doesn't force Himself on anyone.
IF (and it's an impossible if) God were to pre-choose just a few to be "saved", He wouldn't be a God of love...He would be an insane monster beyond all comprehension. Sorry, I CHOOSE not to believe that.

(See what I did there?)

I think you need to read the portion I added to the post.

I am sorry if that is the way you feel about the God of the Bible.
God pre-choose Jeremiah...God pre-chose Jacob over Esau...God chose the 12 disciples...and many more were chosen before the foundations of the world.

Also within this post you are basically stating you are right and you do not care what anyone else says or thinks...our conversation is completed.

Shalom May the God and Father of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, bless you with all wisdom and understanding.

 

[ATP]

I think you need to read the portion I added to the post.

I am sorry if that is the way you feel about the God of the Bible.
God pre-choose Jeremiah...God pre-chose Jacob over Esau...God chose the 12 disciples...and many more were chosen before the foundations of the world.

Ask Barrd about Rom 8:35, 38-39 agape love, because she's probably gonna ignore me so..

 

[Barrd]

I think you need to read the portion I added to the post.

I am sorry if that is the way you feel about the God of the Bible.
God pre-choose Jeremiah...God pre-chose Jacob over Esau...God chose the 12 disciples...and many more were chosen before the foundations of the world.

Also within this post you are basically stating you are right and you do not care what anyone else says or thinks...our conversation is completed.

Shalom May the God and Father of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, bless you with all wisdom and understanding.

One thing you said here that I do agree with.
I honestly do not think we need to take this conversation any further.
If I offended you, I am sorry. That was never my intention.

I'm going to add here that I believe the God of the Bible is an equal opportunity God.
It isn't "whosoever I chose before I created the universe"....Rather it is "Whosoever will may come"....
And nothing is ever going to change that beautiful promise.

 

[brakelite]

ATP said: No, salvation isn't dependent upon repentance.....
In other words ATP contends we can be saved whilst practicing a continuing lifestyle of sin. I suggest ATP you read the definition of salvation as posted by justaname a few posts previous.

 

[brakelite]

Why do people teach from what was clearly written to, and for, the Jews as if it applies under grace? Can't they remember that the Jews were under the law of Moses and those under grace are not under that law?

If you believe H. Richard that anyone in the OT was saved through their obedience to the law or through anything other than the grace of God you need to read the OT again.

 

[ATP]

ATP said: No, salvation isn't dependent upon repentance.....

Salvation is dependent on belief. Continuing sanctification is dependent on repentance. You are confusing the two.

In other words ATP contends we can be saved whilst practicing a continuing lifestyle of sin.

Incorrect..1 John 3:9 NIV.

 

[brakelite]

Salvation is dependent on belief. Continuing sanctification is dependent on repentance. You are confusing the two.


Incorrect..1 John 3:9 NIV.

You are wrong ATP, salvation is utterly dependent upon a change of heart and mind which begins with repentance. Who dare suggest anyone can enter heaven without turning away from sin? Sanctification is dependent on our abiding in the vine.

 

[brakelite]

That 95% of Christianity make the gospel more complicated than it needs to be is evident by the plethora of differing opinions on what the 'gospel' actually is. Protestant theology has taken off into so many different directions over the past 400 years little wonder that Revelation describes only 2 churches upon the earth in the last days. One, the remnant who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus, (the simple version of the gospel) and Babylon, (meaning confusion) reflecting today's 'pick and choose' supermarket that has complicated truth to the point of extinction.

 

[Barrd]

That 95% of Christianity make the gospel more complicated than it needs to be is evident by the plethora of differing opinions on what the 'gospel' actually is. Protestant theology has taken off into so many different directions over the past 400 years little wonder that Revelation describes only 2 churches upon the earth in the last days. One, the remnant who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus, (the simple version of the gospel) and Babylon, (meaning confusion) reflecting today's 'pick and choose' supermarket that has complicated truth to the point of extinction.

It has gotten quite ridiculous, Brakelite.
It seems that the tares are choking out the wheat sometimes, doesn't it?
But I think it is all about having a love for the truth, and being willing to seek the truth in spite of what the people around you are doing or believing. It is about being like those noble Bereans who were willing to search the scriptures to see if the things they were hearing were so.
As long as we have a love for the truth, and a willingness to seek that truth, God will reveal His truth to us.
The second we get the idea that we know all we need to know, God will not reveal anything more to us.
Jesus said "seek and ye shall find"....a beautiful promise, but only good if one is willing to seek.

Oh, my precious brother....how it breaks my heart to think...so many think they have it all figured out...

They will cry "Lord, Lord, see all these things we have done in Your name!"
And He will look at them and say "Who are you? I never knew you, you are not one of My sheep. Get away from me, you are workers of iniquity."

 

[mjrhealth]

It has gotten quite ridiculous, Brakelite.
It seems that the tares are choking out the wheat sometimes, doesn't it?
But I think it is all about having a love for the truth, and being willing to seek the truth in spite of what the people around you are doing or believing. It is about being like those noble Bereans who were willing to search the scriptures to see if the things they were hearing were so.
As long as we have a love for the truth, and a willingness to seek that truth, God will reveal His truth to us.
The second we get the idea that we know all we need to know, God will not reveal anything more to us.
Jesus said "seek and ye shall find"....a beautiful promise, but only good if one is willing to seek.

Oh, my precious brother....how it breaks my heart to think...so many think they have it all figured out...

They will cry "Lord, Lord, see all these things we have done in Your name!"
And He will look at them and say "Who are you? I never knew you, you are not one of My sheep. Get away from me, you are workers of iniquity."

Quiet agree

 

[justaname]

thanks Barrd for sharing. Is it not wonderful however that despite our waywardness, God does remain faithful to the extent that He does not give us up to our weakness but patiently waits for us to hear His loving, yes ATP, agape loving whispers to bring us to repentance. But if we choose to block our ears to His entreaties then our spurning of His offer of life through our continuing transgression against His laws can and will lead to our eternal destruction. As it was in the past...as it is in the present...as it always will be...God's grace, mercy, and salvation is dependent upon our repentance.

Isaiah 1:16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it

Your testimony speaks to the truth of the perseverance of the saints...you still claim the God that claimed you. You did repent of your wayward lifestyle...

Only those who are His ever come back...

 

[Barrd]

Your testimony speaks to the truth of the perseverance of the saints...you still claim the God that claimed you. You did repent of your wayward lifestyle...

Only those who are His ever come back...

Justaname, what is there left to tell you?
I was gone for something like three and a half years. If I had died during that time, where would I have ended up?
And I know you probably didn't read my full testimony, where I told of my affair, and how it ended. It was not an easy time for me.
And I am sure you will not understand when I tell you that God never really left me. It was quite the other way around.
I had left Him. I chose my own desires over what God wanted for me, do you understand? And I ended up hurting myself, and my kids...it was almost like losing their father all over again.
In the end, I chose to come back to God.

Of my
own
free
will.

And I will repeat...I can not accept any notion that God deliberately creates most human beings to be destroyed. I will never believe that. Either the salvation that Jesus suffered to procure is free to "whosoever will", or the whole thing is a sham.

 

[ATP]

Sanctification is dependent on our abiding in the vine.

You sure about that. What does "enter my rest" mean here...

Rom 11:20 NIV Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Rom 11:23 NIV And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Heb 3:16-19 NIV Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

- ATP

 

[ATP]

I never knew you, you are not one of My sheep. Get away from me, you are workers of iniquity."

That's because those people never found salvation and believed..John 10:25-26 NIV. What are we believing in Barrd..

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

 

[justaname]

Justaname, what is there left to tell you?
I was gone for something like three and a half years. If I had died during that time, where would I have ended up?
And I know you probably didn't read my full testimony, where I told of my affair, and how it ended. It was not an easy time for me.
And I am sure you will not understand when I tell you that God never really left me. It was quite the other way around.
I had left Him. I chose my own desires over what God wanted for me, do you understand? And I ended up hurting myself, and my kids...it was almost like losing their father all over again.
In the end, I chose to come back to God.

Of my
own
free
will.

And I will repeat...I can not accept any notion that God deliberately creates most human beings to be destroyed. I will never believe that. Either the salvation that Jesus suffered to procure is free to "whosoever will", or the whole thing is a sham.

You do understand your entire premise here revolves around an "if".

If pigs start flying tomorrow we can know this whole thing is an illusion...

Just sayin...

The facts are you did not die and you speak of being in Christ now. Did you ever think God had something to do with that or is it still all about you?

Maybe the workers of iniquity crying out Lord Lord are those working to save their own skin because they did not trust in Jesus' completed work on the cross...ever think of that?

This response you quoted was to brakelite...sorry if you thought it was to you.

 

[Jun2u]

ATP,

Why keep entertaining these who does not understand the concept of salvation? They will never, never understand what they are saved from or what happened when Jesus went to the cross.

These same people who call themselves Christians are not teachable. A child of God will always search the Scripture to check if the conclusions of a doctrine is faithful to the word of God (2Ti 3:16), just as the Bereans did.

How can these people not understand John 10:25-30? Is it because God sent them a strong delusion that they will believe a lie or is it they believe they know more than God?

I hope the scriptures below will comfort you in your endeavor to witness to others.

Matthew 10:9-16

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

To God Be The Glory

 

[justaname]

That's because those people never found salvation and believed..John 10:25-26 NIV. What are we believing in Barrd..

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Either you are a part of the fold or you are not. If you are His sheep He will keep and protect you. Just like the wheat and tares. Wheat do not turn into tares. The tares were created tares where the wheat was created as wheat. Does not the Potter have the right to make vessels created for honor and others for dishonor?

God's grace is in accordance with His good pleasure and mercy. It matters not on the man that runs or wills, but on the mercy of God.


19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- - Romans 9:19-23


To think some have the arrogance to think they can judge God and what brings Him glory. We are all but dust before Him.

 

[ATP]

ATP,

Why keep entertaining these who does not understand the concept of salvation? They will never, never understand what they are saved from or what happened when Jesus went to the cross.

These same people who call themselves Christians are not teachable. A child of God will always search the Scripture to check if the conclusions of a doctrine is faithful to the word of God (2Ti 3:16), just as the Bereans did.

How can these people not understand John 10:25-30? Is it because God sent them a strong delusion that they will believe a lie or is it they believe they know more than God?

I love teaching the Word.

Maybe God is working on them behind the scenes. In love, ATP.

Either you are a part of the fold or you are not. If you are His sheep He will keep and protect you. Just like the wheat and tares. Wheat do not turn into tares. The tares were created tares where the wheat was created as wheat. Does not the Potter have the right to make vessels created for honor and others for dishonor?

God's grace is in accordance with His good pleasure and mercy. It matters not on the man that runs or wills, but on the mercy of God.


19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- - Romans 9:19-23


To think some have the arrogance to think they can judge God and what brings Him glory. We are all but dust before Him.

Amen brother.

 

[brakelite]

ATP,

Why keep entertaining these who does not understand the concept of salvation? They will never, never understand what they are saved from or what happened when Jesus went to the cross.

These same people who call themselves Christians are not teachable. A child of God will always search the Scripture to check if the conclusions of a doctrine is faithful to the word of God (2Ti 3:16), just as the Bereans did.

How can these people not understand John 10:25-30? Is it because God sent them a strong delusion that they will believe a lie or is it they believe they know more than God?

I hope the scriptures below will comfort you in your endeavor to witness to others.

Matthew 10:9-16

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

To God Be The Glory

Do I know you, or you me?

 

[Barrd]

You do understand your entire premise here revolves around an "if".

If pigs start flying tomorrow we can know this whole thing is an illusion...

Just sayin...

The facts are you did not die and you speak of being in Christ now. Did you ever think God had something to do with that or is it still all about you?

Maybe the workers of iniquity crying out Lord Lord are those working to save their own skin because they did not trust in Jesus' completed work on the cross...ever think of that?

This response you quoted was to brakelite...sorry if you thought it was to you.

Well, since I am the one who lived the experience, I'm pretty sure I can know my own heart.
And I can say with all confidence that I had put God to one side. I was deep in my sin. I was "lost".
Did God have something to do with my return to Him? Well, of course, He did. Did I not say that God had never left me, but that it was I who left Him? But all the same, there was no grabbing me by the ear and saying "get back here, young lady." There was no miracle involved, like "accidentally" coming across my Bible, or my prayer book, or anything like that. Nothing at all out of the way happened except the guy I was having an affair with revealing that he was married with children...that's it. There was a lot of weeping as I came to grips with what I had done...more, as I realized the affect my sin had on the ones I love most in all this world...my kids, who had come to look on my lover as a father. There was a lot of me trying to excuse myself....but there is no excuse for sin.

The idea that non OSASers are "working to save their own skin" is false. We trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross, same as you do, and we are just as aware as you are that it is our faith that saves us, and not our works, lest anyone should boast. Putting sin out of our lives is something that the Holy Spirit accomplishes within us, not something we do in our own strength. We are weak, and we need to acknowledge that fact. There are things that we do, because the Holy Spirit within us prompts us to do them, not because we are trying to "work to save our own skin".
You don't seem to realize....the finished work of Christ on the cross is just that. Finished. Fini. All done. Over. The gift has been purchased, and is offered to "whosoever will". The very notion of "predestination" the way you believe in it is repugnant to me. It does explain why those people who believe in it are insufferably arrogant, though. There isn't much love in a notion like that, and certainly not a drop of humility.

Maybe the workers of iniquity crying out Lord Lord are those working to save their own skin because they did not trust in Jesus' completed work on the cross...ever think of that?

Again, you try to judge other people's hearts. Did I say something earlier about arrogance? Maybe those workers of iniquity are those who advocate a "do nothing" Christianity. Maybe they are the ones congratulating themselves, thinking that God chose them out of all the people in the world, before He created anything at all. Maybe they are the ones that drive people away from Jesus with their attitude, rather than bringing them closer.
I'm sure you have heard of Mahatma Ghandi...it breaks my heart that he said that he liked our Christ, but not our Christians...our Christians are so unlike our Christ. He got close enough to realize that Jesus was someone he could admire...but then the behavior of people he saw as Christ's followers disgusted him, and he decided he didn't want anything to do with Christianity.
And that is a very common attitude.
Why do you suppose that is?
I suggest that it is the "do nothing" brand of Christians who will find themselves being told to go away from Christ...they don't appear to be very close to Him to begin with.

This response you quoted was to brakelite...sorry if you thought it was to you.

Well, I can't really speak for Brakelite...but I'm fairly sure that he will tell you pretty much what I have told you...only he will do it much more eloquently and more beautifully than me.