The Doctrine of OSAS

[OzSpen]

Ask Oz which fallacy you are commiting here...

Red herring
Straw-man

The topic is apostasy. Unless you can prove they truly believed in their heart while their actions prove they have no belief, you have no case.

Who can know the heart of a man? We do not even know the depths of our own wickedness, how can we know the depts of others? Some may have fooled even themselves with their oppression of the truth. Their actions prove they are in rebellion, what makes you believe they ever were not in rebellion?

My "free will" is submitted to God's sovereign authority. Free will from your perspective could also be called rebellion.

Have you read Norman L Geisler's book, Chosen but Free (Bethany House Publishers 1999). He reaches a very different conclusion to you in his understanding of free will, God's sovereignty and salvation. If your free will is submitted to God's sovereign authority, how much freedom of choice has God given you through his sovereignty?

Do you not know the difference between the logical fallacies of red herring and straw man? A red herring is when somebody changes the topic to divert attention away from the topic being discussed. A straw man fallacy is erected when a false view of a person's theology/perspective is promoted.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Only for those who dont believe the power og God can save them.

That is not providing evidence to The Barrd to refute her claim that 'OSAS is a lie'. Your statement is nothing more than your idiosyncratic personal assertion that carries no more worth than your opinion.

Why don't you present your case from Scripture to confirm your assertion? Then we'll have something to discuss.

 

[OzSpen]

I adhere to Jonathon Edward's definition of free will...

I don't think you are being fair on a public forum when you make that kind of statement. Please provide us with his definition and documentation.

 

[OzSpen]

I don't see a fallacy here.
Your claim is that their actions prove that they were never Christians to begin with, and my response is "prove it."
The fact is that you cannot.
Why is that, Barrd? Because, Justaname, you can not see into someone else's heart. Period, the end.

Look at what you tell me next: Who can know the heart of a man? Which is exactly my point. We cannot know the heart of a man. You tell me that we don't even know the depths of our own wickedness....perhaps you, yourself are "in rebellion" and do not realize it. You want me to accept you idea that because they left their faith, they were always in rebellion....but again, you have no way to prove that. That is merely an assumption on your part for which you have no basis....because you have no idea what was in their heart.

Now, you tell me that your free will is submitted to God's sovereign authority. Well and good. I can't see your heart, so I don't actually know that you are being honest with me...or with yourself...but because you tell me this, I choose to believe it. And I say "Hey, great! I pray that it will always be so."

And yes, free will could also be called rebellion. Remember the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? Did they have free will?
And again, did Abraham have free will? He chose to do as God had asked him to do. And Moses...as I recall, he did a bit of squirming when God first told him what He wanted him to do...but in the end, he chose to obey. Others chose to rebel...for instance, the guy who tried to gather manna on the Sabbath day, after Moses had told the people that there wouldn't be any...or those priests who offered "strange fire" to God (I always wondered about that.)
Anyway, all through the Bible, people have demonstrated their free will.

Joshua 24:15 (NIV) is a pretty emphatic statement about choice/free will and serving God or the other gods: 'But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.'

 

[H. Richard]

thanks Barrd for sharing. Is it not wonderful however that despite our waywardness, God does remain faithful to the extent that He does not give us up to our weakness but patiently waits for us to hear His loving, yes ATP, agape loving whispers to bring us to repentance. But if we choose to block our ears to His entreaties then our spurning of His offer of life through our continuing transgression against His laws can and will lead to our eternal destruction. As it was in the past...as it is in the present...as it always will be...God's grace, mercy, and salvation is dependent upon our repentance.

Isaiah 1:16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it

Why do people teach from what was clearly written to, and for, the Jews as if it applies under grace? Can't they remember that the Jews were under the law of Moses and those under grace are not under that law?

 

[Barrd]

thanks Barrd for sharing. Is it not wonderful however that despite our waywardness, God does remain faithful to the extent that He does not give us up to our weakness but patiently waits for us to hear His loving, yes ATP, agape loving whispers to bring us to repentance. But if we choose to block our ears to His entreaties then our spurning of His offer of life through our continuing transgression against His laws can and will lead to our eternal destruction. As it was in the past...as it is in the present...as it always will be...God's grace, mercy, and salvation is dependent upon our repentance.

Isaiah 1:16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it

Amen and Amen, beloved brother!

 

[Barrd]

Joshua 24:15 (NIV) is a pretty emphatic statement about choice/free will and serving God or the other gods: 'But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.'

Thank you, Oz, I forgot to mention that very important scripture!
God always gives us a choice.

 

[ATP]

and salvation is dependent upon our repentance.

No, salvation isn't dependent upon repentance, rather living a grace filled life is dependent upon repentance. We don't endure because of religion, rather we endure because God's seed remains in us forever Matt 24:13, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV.

Matt 24:13 NIV But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

1 Cor 4:12 NIV We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;

1 Cor 10:13 NIV No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

The bible in it's whole does not agree with OSAS...

What is the "truth" and the "seed" an example of, and why is it imperishable..

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

 

[justaname]

I don't think you are being fair on a public forum when you make that kind of statement. Please provide us with his definition and documentation.

I did...

Did you get a chance to read my previous response to you? Also were you going to try to answer those questions or simply continue to avoid them?

 

[justaname]

justaname,

Could you be committing the fallacy of confusing cause and effect here?

Salvation is presented through Scripture as both future and continual. No I am not.

 

[justaname]

Have you read Norman L Geisler's book, Chosen but Free (Bethany House Publishers 1999). He reaches a very different conclusion to you in his understanding of free will, God's sovereignty and salvation. If your free will is submitted to God's sovereign authority, how much freedom of choice has God given you through his sovereignty?

Do you not know the difference between the logical fallacies of red herring and straw man? A red herring is when somebody changes the topic to divert attention away from the topic being discussed. A straw man fallacy is erected when a false view of a person's theology/perspective is promoted.

Oz

I did not read Geisler's book, although many different theologians have reached various positions regarding free will. Did you read James White's book in his response to Geisler, Potter's Freedom?

I do know the definition of both fallacies, and she is guilty of both if you read her post.

 

[justaname]

First of all, God is not currently saving anyone.
He died to save the world on Calvary over 2000 years ago. That job is finished. The price was paid, and the gift was given.
All that remains is for us to accept it.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And secondly, I am not judging their hearts at all. You are the one who is doing that.
I am merely taking them at their word.


Perhaps. I can only go by what you tell me, I don't know the guy personally. For all I know, he might be a great guy.
However, if he thinks we can't learn about Jesus Christ and come to love Him all on our own, I would say that he is sadly mistaken.
Further, I would contend that he has no more idea what might be in someone else's heart than you or I.

Salvation is presented as both a present and future event for the believer. In other words God is saving you now, and you will be saved in the future.


Here is some information about Jon...

Born in 1703 into a pioneer family on the frontier of East Windsor, Connecticut, Jonathan Edwards was the only son of twelve children. His father, Timothy, was a pastor. At the age of thirteen, Edwards went to Yale College and graduated in 1720. After a few years of teaching in New York and at Yale, he became an assistant pastor to his grandfather, Solomon Stoddard, at a Congregational Church in Northampton. After Stoddard died, Edwards became the pastor. A series of conversions took place at his church, which coincided with the conversions taking place under the preaching of George Whitefield, an English evangelist, in the same area. Conversions began to sweep the area and a spiritual revival like none other took place. We know it today as the First Great Awakening.

It has been said of Jonathan Edwards that he produced one of the most thorough and compelling bodies of theological writing in the history of America. More commonly asserted is the statement that Edwards was “the greatest intellect that America has ever produced”. Perhaps this is seen best in his book Freedom of the Will.

This is taken from the same website I already posted a link to...

http://www.thirdmill.org/files/english/html/th/TH.h.Tchividjian.Edwards%20and%20Free%20Will.html

 

[Barrd]

Salvation is presented as both a present and future event for the believer. In other words God is saving you now, and you will be saved in the future.

Perhaps we have a different definition of the term "salvation".
For me, it is what happened at Calvary, when Christ paid the price for sin. A one time event, and completely finished at the cross.
The gift of salvation was presented to the entire world.
It is up to each individual whether or not they will accept Christ's gift to us.
Once the person accepts that gift, he or she is wholly and completely saved.
However, like any gift, we can (and sadly, sometimes do) put that precious gift down, and walk away from it...like I once did, and like my precious brother, Brakelite once did.

Sanctification, however, is an ongoing process, which is never completely finished during this lifetime. Perhaps that is what you are thinking of...the process of purifying us from our sins? That won't be complete till we wake up on what my precious brother, Phoneman, calls that great gettin' up morning, and find ourselves to be like Him.

Here is some information about Jon...

Born in 1703 into a pioneer family on the frontier of East Windsor, Connecticut, Jonathan Edwards was the only son of twelve children. His father, Timothy, was a pastor. At the age of thirteen, Edwards went to Yale College and graduated in 1720. After a few years of teaching in New York and at Yale, he became an assistant pastor to his grandfather, Solomon Stoddard, at a Congregational Church in Northampton. After Stoddard died, Edwards became the pastor. A series of conversions took place at his church, which coincided with the conversions taking place under the preaching of George Whitefield, an English evangelist, in the same area. Conversions began to sweep the area and a spiritual revival like none other took place. We know it today as the First Great Awakening.

It has been said of Jonathan Edwards that he produced one of the most thorough and compelling bodies of theological writing in the history of America. More commonly asserted is the statement that Edwards was “the greatest intellect that America has ever produced”. Perhaps this is seen best in his book Freedom of the Will.

This is taken from the same website I already posted a link to...

http://www.thirdmill.org/files/english/html/th/TH.h.Tchividjian.Edwards%20and%20Free%20Will.html

He sounds like a thoroughly interesting fella.
Perhaps "the greatest intellect that America ever produced" is taking it a step over the top. I would have given that honor to someone like Benjamin Franklin, for instance.
But, I stand by what I said.

If Jon thought that a person cannot learn about Jesus, through whatever means, and come to love Him, then I am afraid that I disagree with him. And, personally, if he thought that, then I would have to say that, perhaps he was not such a great intellect, after all.

 

[justaname]

Perhaps we have a different definition of the term "salvation".
For me, it is what happened at Calvary, when Christ paid the price for sin. A one time event, and completely finished at the cross.
The gift of salvation was presented to the entire world.
It is up to each individual whether or not they will accept Christ's gift to us.
Once the person accepts that gift, he or she is wholly and completely saved.
However, like any gift, we can (and sadly, sometimes do) put that precious gift down, and walk away from it...like I once did, and like my precious brother, Brakelite once did.

Sanctification, however, is an ongoing process, which is never completely finished during this lifetime. Perhaps that is what you are thinking of...the process of purifying us from our sins? That won't be complete till we wake up on what my precious brother, Phoneman, calls that great gettin' up morning, and find ourselves to be like Him.

He sounds like a thoroughly interesting fella.
Perhaps "the greatest intellect that America ever produced" is taking it a step over the top. I would have given that honor to someone like Benjamin Franklin, for instance.
But, I stand by what I said.

If Jon thought that a person cannot learn about Jesus, through whatever means, and come to love Him, then I am afraid that I disagree with him. And, personally, if he thought that, then I would have to say that, perhaps he was not such a great intellect, after all.

I think this is why these conversations are helpful. We do have a different view of salvation. What you speak of on the cross is atonement...

Also I do not think you have a correct understanding of what Edwards is conveying either.

Shalom!

 

[Barrd]

I think this is why these conversations are helpful. We do have a different view of salvation. What you speak of on the cross is atonement..

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

And what is atonement, anyway, if it is not salvation? Christ purchased our salvation at the price of His blood. It is completely paid for. He doesn't need to go on dying, over and over again, does He? The price is paid. The gift is available to anyone who will accept it.

Consider...if I were to give you the gift of a new BMW...you'd understand that the gift was paid for, and the car is yours.
However, it is now up to you to maintain the car. If you do not take care of it, sooner or later, it will break down. You must make sure to see to it that the oil is changed on schedule, and that there is enough water in the radiator, points and plugs and other gizmos are checked according to schedule, and replaced when necessary, tires are rotated, or changed when necessary, etc.
And, of course, if you don't keep gasoline in it, it won't take you anywhere.

Okay, so maybe it isn't the best analogy in the world. But the point is, once you have accepted the gift of salvation, you must maintain it. You must see to it that you provide your "engine"...that is, your heart...with plenty of fuel. You need to check yourself often, to see if you are living up to your gift. Jesus will always be available to help you and to encourage you...but He will not force Himself on you. If you put your precious gift to one side, that is where it will stay. If you are not constantly renewing your faith, it will eventually fade away and, as my dear brother Phoneman has pointed out, your agape love can grow cold and dead....and you will be lost.

Also I do not think you have a correct understanding of what Edwards is conveying either.

Dear man, I have nothing against ol' Jon.
But, quite frankly, he has nothing to do with this conversation.
Benjamin Franklin gave the world electricity....now that's something important! But he doesn't have anything to do with this conversation, either.
Your constant insistence that I consider Jon's opinion, whatever it is, is a classic red herring...or, as me sainted muther would say, ye ol' bait an switch.

Shalom!

Peace, back atcha.

 

[ATP]

your agape love can grow cold and dead....and you will be lost.

No, that's incorrect. Neither present nor future can separate our agape love from us Rom 8:38-39 ESV. Also, the term "lost" represents nonbelievers, not believers. The reason they are not His sheep is because of unbelief..John 10:26 NIV..

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

- ATP

 

[justaname]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

And what is atonement, anyway, if it is not salvation? Christ purchased our salvation at the price of His blood. It is completely paid for. He doesn't need to go on dying, over and over again, does He? The price is paid. The gift is available to anyone who will accept it.

Consider...if I were to give you the gift of a new BMW...you'd understand that the gift was paid for, and the car is yours.
However, it is now up to you to maintain the car. If you do not take care of it, sooner or later, it will break down. You must make sure to see to it that the oil is changed on schedule, and that there is enough water in the radiator, points and plugs and other gizmos are checked according to schedule, and replaced when necessary, tires are rotated, or changed when necessary, etc.
And, of course, if you don't keep gasoline in it, it won't take you anywhere.

Okay, so maybe it isn't the best analogy in the world. But the point is, once you have accepted the gift of salvation, you must maintain it. You must see to it that you provide your "engine"...that is, your heart...with plenty of fuel. You need to check yourself often, to see if you are living up to your gift. Jesus will always be available to help you and to encourage you...but He will not force Himself on you. If you put your precious gift to one side, that is where it will stay. If you are not constantly renewing your faith, it will eventually fade away and, as my dear brother Phoneman has pointed out, your agape love can grow cold and dead....and you will be lost.


Dear man, I have nothing against ol' Jon.
But, quite frankly, he has nothing to do with this conversation.
Benjamin Franklin gave the world electricity....now that's something important! But he doesn't have anything to do with this conversation, either.
Your constant insistence that I consider Jon's opinion, whatever it is, is a classic red herring...or, as me sainted muther would say, ye ol' bait an switch.


Peace, back atcha.

I am sorry if you do not understand the terms you are using, yet for theological discussions we must start by agreeing with the terms we use. This is all important because if you are speaking about atonement while I am speaking about salvation we can never come to a clear understanding of each other's communications.

I will give a portion of a definition for salvation...Pay specific attention to the last paragraph to see what I am communicating about salvation.

Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Salvation

The objective basis and means of salvation is God's sovereign and gracious choice to be "God with us" in the person of Jesus Christ, who is described as both author and mediator of salvation ( Heb 2:10 ; 7:25 ). But the movement of Jesus' life goes through the cross and resurrection. It is therefore "Christ crucified" that is of central importance for salvation ( 1 Cor 1:23 ), for "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures" ( 1 Cor 15:3 ) and was handed to death for our trespasses ( Rom 4:25 ). What Jesus did in our name he also did in our place, giving "his life as a ransom for many" ( Matt 20:28 ). And if Christ demonstrated his love by dying when we were still sinners, how much more shall we now be saved by his life? ( Rom 5:8-10 ). So critical is the resurrection to the future hope of salvation that "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins" ( 1 Cor 15:17 ).

The subjective basis of salvation is personal repentance and faith, often associated closely with water baptism. John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins ( Matt 3:2 ; Mark 1:4), a message echoed by Peter ( Acts 2:38 ) and Paul ( Acts 20:21 ). Jesus said salvation required belief in him ( Mark 16:15 ; John 6:47 ). Paul enjoined confession with the mouth that "Jesus is Lord" and belief that God raised him from the dead ( Rom 10:8-9 ). The writer of Hebrews suggests that the hearing of the gospel is of no value unless combined with faith ( 4:1 ).

The New Testament articulates salvation in terms of past, present, and future time. In Christ we were elected before the foundation of the world ( Eph 1:4 ). In hope we were saved ( Rom 8:24 ). Yet the cross is the power of God for those who are being saved ( 1 Cor 1:18 ). Likewise Paul's readers are admonished to work out their salvation with fear and trembling ( Php 2:12 ). And there is yet a salvation that lies waiting to be revealed in the last time ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), a redemption for which we groan inwardly ( Rom 8:23 ). For Paul, the past dimension of salvation is generally conceived as justification, redemption, and reconciliation, while its present dimension is depicted in terms of the Spirit's sanctifying work. Its future dimension is said to be glorification, the culmination of the saving process wherein believers will experience Christ's presence in new and resurrected bodies no longer burdened by the vestiges of sin.




As for Edwards he only came up during our conversation of free will where I said I adhere to his definition. You continue to comment on different aspects of what he espoused. I am not distracting the conversation, only answering your contentions.

Now as for the sanctification portion of your post, that is the natural working of the believer. Those who are Christ's do cooperate with the sanctifying work of the Spirit. If there is no evidence of cooperation that is evidence they are not in Christ, similar to the apostate. Although we can not judge a person's heart we can see the outworking of their actions. Those who God saves prove their saving faith in and throughout their lives all while abiding to the end. These are the only ones He saves.

Christ is the author and finisher/perfecter of our faith. The work necessary for our salvation was completed on the cross. It is God who saves us, not us who save ourselves.

The maintenance program you speak of directs our focus of salvation off of God and on us. The way you speak we are responsible for our salvation, not God. Here you speak of working to maintain your salvation for fear of losing it. If you don't ________ you will lose your salvation. These works have the motivation of self, not God or others. You work because you want to keep and maintain your salvation. This is selfish.

Now if I speak in terms of love the concept changes. Out of the love for God I abstain from sin. Out of the love for others I feed the poor, help the widow, and house the orphan. I am not doing these works because I have to or else! I do these works from the love God instilled in my heart.

Understand I am not saying you can not do works out of the love of God, but rather if your works are for self preservation you are working for the love of self.

 

[ATP]

1 Tim 4:10 NIV That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[Barrd]

I am sorry if you do not understand the terms you are using, yet for theological discussions we must start by agreeing with the terms we use. This is all important because if you are speaking about atonement while I am speaking about salvation we can never come to a clear understanding of each other's communications.

I will give a portion of a definition for salvation...Pay specific attention to the last paragraph to see what I am communicating about salvation.

Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Salvation

The objective basis and means of salvation is God's sovereign and gracious choice to be "God with us" in the person of Jesus Christ, who is described as both author and mediator of salvation ( Heb 2:10 ; 7:25 ). But the movement of Jesus' life goes through the cross and resurrection. It is therefore "Christ crucified" that is of central importance for salvation ( 1 Cor 1:23 ), for "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures" ( 1 Cor 15:3 ) and was handed to death for our trespasses ( Rom 4:25 ). What Jesus did in our name he also did in our place, giving "his life as a ransom for many" ( Matt 20:28 ). And if Christ demonstrated his love by dying when we were still sinners, how much more shall we now be saved by his life? ( Rom 5:8-10 ). So critical is the resurrection to the future hope of salvation that "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins" ( 1 Cor 15:17 ).

The subjective basis of salvation is personal repentance and faith, often associated closely with water baptism. John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins ( Matt 3:2 ; Mark 1:4), a message echoed by Peter ( Acts 2:38 ) and Paul ( Acts 20:21 ). Jesus said salvation required belief in him ( Mark 16:15 ; John 6:47 ). Paul enjoined confession with the mouth that "Jesus is Lord" and belief that God raised him from the dead ( Rom 10:8-9 ). The writer of Hebrews suggests that the hearing of the gospel is of no value unless combined with faith ( 4:1 ).

The New Testament articulates salvation in terms of past, present, and future time. In Christ we were elected before the foundation of the world ( Eph 1:4 ). In hope we were saved ( Rom 8:24 ). Yet the cross is the power of God for those who are being saved ( 1 Cor 1:18 ). Likewise Paul's readers are admonished to work out their salvation with fear and trembling ( Php 2:12 ). And there is yet a salvation that lies waiting to be revealed in the last time ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), a redemption for which we groan inwardly ( Rom 8:23 ). For Paul, the past dimension of salvation is generally conceived as justification, redemption, and reconciliation, while its present dimension is depicted in terms of the Spirit's sanctifying work. Its future dimension is said to be glorification, the culmination of the saving process wherein believers will experience Christ's presence in new and resurrected bodies no longer burdened by the vestiges of sin.




As for Edwards he only came up during our conversation of free will where I said I adhere to his definition. You continue to comment on different aspects of what he espoused. I am not distracting the conversation, only answering your contentions.

One thing we are going to have to make perfectly clear before we go any further at all.
And that is that the one and only authority I am ever going to accept is going to be the Bible...and only the Bible.
It's no use sending me to various websites to read these long posts that you think prove your point, because
a. I don't really care to read someone else's opinion, regardless of how "scholarly" they are...I have the evidence right before my eyes that you scholarly types don't agree among yourselves, anyway.
b. If I were so inclined, and willing to do the work (which I am not), I'm fairly sure I could pull up as many scholarly web sites that support my own position.
c. I have my own Bible, I can read, and while I don't have a degree, I'm not exactly stupid. As a matter of fact, when I was tested not long ago, I scored pretty high. Not a genius, maybe...but a pretty good bit above what is considered "normal".


What I actually said was that our salvation has already been secured. Jesus paid the full price for it. The completely paid-for gift is available to whoever will accept it. If you accept it, then it belongs to you...you do not need to continue "being saved" on a daily basis...however, like any gift, you do need to maintain your salvation, which is what those verses you posted are referring to.

What we are debating here is whether or not a person can lose his salvation, and my contention is that he can, if he fails to maintain it.
Which contention you actually just proved, although I'm pretty sure you didn't intend to, and have not realized yet that you have done so.

As for dear Jon, God rest his soul, all I said was that he could be wrong. We can, and do, come to love the Lord Jesus Christ through learning about Him.
We come to Him through our own free will. God doesn't force Himself on anyone.
IF (and it's an impossible if) God were to pre-choose just a few to be "saved", He wouldn't be a God of love...He would be an insane monster beyond all comprehension. Sorry, I CHOOSE not to believe that.

(See what I did there?)

 

[ATP]

What we are debating here is whether or not a person can lose his salvation, and my contention is that he can, if he fails to maintain it.

But if you're working to maintain it then Jesus sacrifice on the cross isn't complete Heb 10:10-12 NIV.

What are your thoughts on Rom 8:35, 38-39 agape love. A topic we haven't discussed yet.