If there is no choice, we may as well do whatever we want, whenever we want. We're either saved or doomed anyway, so what's the difference?
The Doctrine of OSAS
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It seems to me that it is the ones who think that they were "pre-chosen" who have the high opinion of themselves.justaname said:
And why wouldn't they? What an honor, to be chosen by God for salvation before you were ever born. How special you must be!
But wasn't it the one who would not so much as raise his eyes, but who beat on his chest crying "God, be merciful to me, a sinner" who went down justified before God?
Hmmm....something here just doesn't fit....
Hmmm....something here just doesn't fit....
Not at all....justaname said:
The Greek is προορίζω (proorizō), and it has several connotations such as; to limit or mark out beforehand; to design definitely beforehand, ordain beforehand, predestine. The context of Rom 8:29 (NIV) shows HOW it should be treated, in line with the first connotation, which is usually how lexicons work. The context shows this predestining, IN CONTEXT, is in relation to being Christ like, which again, depends on our own obedience and allegiance to God our Saviour.
Let's try to stay away from the ad hominems OK, otherwise I can't be bothered to pursue this. Denigrating your opponents skills or knowledge, is the last resort of a weak position.
I did not say we don't have a choice. I have said that Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9). The choices we make are free, this is the Reformed position. Nobody forces you to choice you make them freely. But where we Reformed folks part ways is in the area of our nature. As a fallen humanity in the first Adam we LOVE TO SIN and we HATE THE LIGHT (John 3). Ephesians 2 depicts our sinful nature and a God full of Mercy:The Barrd said:
Ephesians 2New International Version (NIV)
Made Alive in Christ
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
As Luther has said, so the sinner is in bondage to his/her sin (lust/appetite/desires/cravings) this is what the sinner is in bondage too. They LOVE the darkness and Hate the light, because then they evil deeds will be exposed. Allot of people just assume things without doing the homework to understand it.
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Stan,StanJ said:
I did not intend my comment to be ad hominem rather descriptive of your position. I can see how you would take it as a personal attack, I apologize.
The text states God predetermined those who will be conformed into the image of Christ. This speaks nothing to our ability rather to His sovereignty. You are adding to the text our responsibility...
In the Gospels we sometimes read, “many are called, but few chosen”, but Paul is not using the term “call” in that sense. He means “effectual call”; he is speaking of those who have not only heard the call but have responded.[SIZE=12pt][1]#_ftn1[/SIZE] Our God is One who calls things into being. Paul at verse 4:17, also in Romans, uses this same word, “(as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.” This is a reference to the creation story in Genesis where all of creation is called or spoken into being. This is not to be confused with the naming process ordained by God.
Another passage that is interesting to note here also is when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, Jesus called Lazarus out of the tomb. (John 11:43) Jesus simply speaks Lazarus alive demonstrating the power intrinsic with the Word of God. The emphasis established here is when God calls, there is an anticipated and guaranteed response given. This is contrary to a mere human call that might go out void for God will not be denied. I am reminded of the prophet Isaiah in 55:10-11, “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return there without watering the earth and making it bear and sprout, and furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; it will not return to me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.”
This calling is rather a kind of “summons” from the King of the universe and it has such power that it brings about the response that it asks for in people’s hearts. It is an act of God that guarantees a response, because Paul specifies in Romans 8:30 that all who were “called” were also “justified.” This calling has the capacity to draw us out of the kingdom of darkness and bring us into God’s kingdom so we can join in full fellowship with him: “God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Cor. 1:9).
What we gather here is this calling is different from the gospel call and has been deemed effective calling. We may define effective calling as follows: Effective calling is an act of God the Father, speaking through the human proclamation of the gospel, in which he summons people to himself in such a way that they respond in saving faith.[SIZE=12pt][2]#_ftn2[/SIZE] The foundational reason why all things work for believers’ good begins to emerge: God’s unstoppable purpose in calling believers to salvation cannot be frustrated, and thus He employs all things to bring about the plan He had from the beginning in the lives of believers.[SIZE=12pt][3][/SIZE]
Schreiner expounds on the idea that the called and the justified are fused together. He explains that if those who are called are justified the calling must be made effectual and thereby must create faith. He further explains that “all” called are justified and justification cannot occur without faith. (3:21-22, 28, 5:1) He ties in the vindicating idea of God’s call effectually bringing into existence things that did not exist (cf. also Rom. 9:24–26; 1 Cor. 1:9, 24, 26–28; Gal. 1:6, 15; 1 Thess. 2:12; 5:24; 2 Thess. 2:14; 2 Tim. 1:9).[SIZE=12pt][4]#_ftn4[/SIZE]
Moving on to verse 29 we are confronted with the linking word for. From Morris we get, “ὅτι is perhaps explicatory or introduces a reason: we know that God works all for good for us, for….”[SIZE=12pt][5]#_ftn5[/SIZE] Schreiner prefers the idea that it grounds the proposition in verse 28, that all things work together for good. He suggests that Paul is clarifying and emphasizing this idea touched in the previous verse so believers may grasp this concept attributing it to God’s rule and plan for them. He continues on to explain the good realized is not because of fate, luck, or even due to moral superiority rather it is to be ascribed to God’s will, which has from eternity past to eternity future secured and guaranteed the good for those whom he has chosen. He contends that this is the significance of the pericope that navigates the course from God’s foreknowledge of believers to their glorification.
Continuing into the verse we are confronted with the word foreknow. This is an imperative word to understand when it comes to Paul’s soteriology because predestination unto salvation is limited to those that are foreknown προγινώσκειν (proginōskein, to foreknow). Some interpret verse 29 to mean that God predestines on the basis of His prior knowledge about how each of us will respond to His call. This fits with Acts 26:5 and 2 Pet. 3:17, where the verb προγινώσκειν clearly means “to know beforehand.”[SIZE=12pt][6]#_ftn6[/SIZE] Unfortunately this would mean that God is not the Sovereign. God would be dependent on seeing our goings on in the future. For God to foreknow requires an earlier decree. The etymology of the Greek verb translated “predestine” suggests marking out a boundary beforehand. In the present context predestination is not concerned with election to salvation. Rather, God has foreordained that believers be brought into “moral conformity to the likeness of his Son.” What is predestined is that we become like Christ (cf. 2 Cor 3:18).[SIZE=12pt][7][/SIZE]
Schreiner suggests looking to the OT for the background of the term. Here for God “to know” ([SIZE=16pt]יָדַע[/SIZE], yāda˓) refers to his covenantal love in which he sets his affection on those whom he has chosen (cf. Gen. 18:19; Exod. 33:17; 1 Sam. 2:12; Ps. 18:43; Prov. 9:10; Jer. 1:5; Hos. 13:5; Amos 3:2). The parallel terms “consecrate” and “appoint” in Jer. 1:5 are noteworthy, for the text is not merely saying that God “foresaw” that Jeremiah would serve as a prophet. The point is that God had lovingly chosen him to be a prophet before he was born. With Romans 8:29, the point is that God has predestined those upon whom he has set his covenantal affection.[SIZE=12pt][8]#_ftn8[/SIZE]
The BKC attributes this verse and the following verse as Paul’s explanation of what it means to be one who has been “called according to His purpose” and why God continues to work all things to their good. Believers are those God foreknew, not that God simply foreknew what believers will do. The authors contend that this is a meaningful relationship based on God’s choice (Jer. 1:4-5; Amos 3:2) in eternity before Creation. “He chose us in Him before the Creation of the world” (Eph. 1:4)
More than establishing a relationship between God and believers, this choice and foreknowledge involves the goal of the relationship. Believers are conformed to the likeness of Jesus Christ. By all saints being made like Christ (ultimate and complete sanctification), Christ will be exalted as the Firstborn among many brothers. The resurrected and glorified Lord Jesus Christ will become the Head of a new race of humanity purified from all contact with sin and prepared to live eternally in His presence (cf. 1 Cor. 15:42-49). This “Firstborn” position is the highest amongst the others. (Col. 1:18)[SIZE=12pt][9]#_ftn9[/SIZE]
Now beauty and genius is found in Paul’s theology in that the eschaton has invaded into this present age. This transformation is a process that starts in this age (cf. 2 Cor. 3:18; Col. 3:10) and is completed and consummated at the resurrection. The use of the word image signifies that Jesus as the second Adam succeeded where the first Adam failed. The word “many” signifies the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. In the OT Israel was God’s firstborn (Exod. 4:22), but now we see that Jesus Christ is God’s firstborn, and one becomes part of God’s family through union with him.[SIZE=12pt][10]#_ftn10[/SIZE]
From verse 30 we see the completion of this process God uses in His magnificent plan ordained from eternity past. It is significant to note all the verbs used are subjected to God and are in the aorist. Now those whom God predestined He also called. This predestination refers to God’s decision before history began for those whom He foreknew. Call refers to God’s work in history which He summons though the gospel some to Himself. (John 6:44) Those whom He called He also justified. This justification denotes God’s saving activity where the believer is deemed righteous. Lastly presented is those justified are glorified by God.[SIZE=12pt][11]#_ftn11[/SIZE] As stated earlier this is interesting being the aorist is used in all these verbs. Some postulate the aorist is ingressive reaching its culmination in the future. Others locate glorification in baptism. Schreiner is against both of these views due to the eschatological thrust of the context and the concept of glorification. He suggests the aorist simply implies that what God has begun He will finish with certainty. (cf. Philippians 1:6)
Speaking of the aorist of glorify the BKC suggest this final step is so certain that in God’s eye it is as good as done. This glorification is attributed to the conforming to Jesus Christ being this is God’s ultimate purpose. From Mounce we get that since future events are determined by God’s decree, Paul could refer to glorification in the aorist. A second interpretation is that God has bestowed glory to those whom He justified. Morris brings to attention that some believe the verb has been attracted into the tense of the other verbs, but is rather satisfied with the idea of certainty. As mentioned earlier God is transcendent thereby time is something that does not affect God.
According to this passage believers should stand assured that everything works
[SIZE=12pt]for good, because it is God who has called them according to His purpose and it is His agency that assures the good on their behalf. Believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, which in itself is glorifying, but not revealed in its entirety at this time. (1 John 3:2) That said we have certainty that God will complete the work He has begun in us, (Ephesians 2:10) that He has ordained in eternity past (Ephesians 1:4) (1 Cor. 15:49) Since we are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified we can have confidence through all trials and tribulations that we are not alone in our struggles and the ultimate victory is already overcome. Faith is strengthened by the fact that God, transcendent of time, already sees us in a manner we await to see ourselves. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt][1][/SIZE] Leon Morris, The Epistle to the Romans, The Pillar New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Leicester, England: W.B. Eerdmans; Inter-Varsity Press, 1988), 332.
[SIZE=12pt][2][/SIZE] Wayne A. Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House, 2004), 693.
[SIZE=12pt][3][/SIZE] Thomas R. Schreiner, vol. 6, Romans, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 451.
[SIZE=12pt][4][/SIZE] Thomas R. Schreiner, vol. 6, Romans, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 451.
[SIZE=12pt][5][/SIZE] Leon Morris, The Epistle to the Romans, The Pillar New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Leicester, England: W.B. Eerdmans; Inter-Varsity Press, 1988).
[SIZE=12pt][6][/SIZE] Thomas R. Schreiner, vol. 6, Romans, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 452.
[SIZE=12pt][7][/SIZE] Robert H. Mounce, vol. 27, Romans, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995), 189.
[SIZE=12pt][8][/SIZE] Thomas R. Schreiner, vol. 6, Romans, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 452.
[SIZE=12pt][9][/SIZE] John F. Walvoord, Roy B. Zuck and Dallas Theological Seminary, The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1985), Ro 8:29–30.
[SIZE=12pt][10][/SIZE] Thomas R. Schreiner, vol. 6, Romans, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 453-54.
[SIZE=12pt][11][/SIZE] Thomas R. Schreiner, vol. 6, Romans, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 453-54.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.justaname said:
There do seem to be an awful lot of "whosoever will" verses. Jesus says it a lot.
And, yes....faith does involve one's emotions.
Well, real heart faith does, anyway. I doubt whether head faith does, much...
Oh, yeah...that's Barrd...no "e".
I am conveying the plain fact that "whosoever will" is quite different from "whosoever I already chose before he was even born."justaname said:
And as I said, Jesus uses that phrase quite a bit. But, you know, I don't recall that He ever said "Whoever My Father already chose", or "Sorry, all the positions are already filled. No one else need apply, the fountain of life is now closed." Or anything remotely like that.
I am also stating the obvious fact that the notion that one was chosen before he or she was born is a prideful thing, and definitely contradicting what Jesus had to say about the pharisee and the publican.
You accused me of arguing from emotion, and I am pointing out that heart faith is a matter of the emotions.justaname said:
Head faith....which is not the same thing....is obviously not,
Rev 22:17 is referring to those who accept the free gift of salvation. Notice the words "whoever believes in me" in John 7:38. What are we believing in Barrd...The Barrd said:
John 7:38-39 NIV Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Eph 2:8 NIV For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
Rev 22:17 NIV The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
How you explain Romans 9? Especially these passages:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]The Barrd said:
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
The Barrd said:
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It seems you have an issue with what scripture presents or at least your interpretation of it...The Barrd said:
Do you have a better understanding of the Greek in the Romans 8:28-30 that I did not represent in my post?
Clearly Scripture presents God as sovereign in the decisions of man, yet man is culpable for the decisions he makes. This is not to say God makes these decisions for humanity rather humans make the decisions themselves all within the plan of God. God does not go around changing His plans because of the actions of humans. God continually runs with His plan in progression. Christ was slain before the foundations of the world! Before Adam or Eve, before sin entered the world, Christ was the plan of God. So too those who are saved and predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ are chosen before the foundations of the world. This is what scripture presents.
The Good Shepherd knows all His sheep by name, and His sheep know His voice. They will not follow another and the Shepherd will not lose any the Father has given Him. He will raise them on the last day. Why do you fight so vehemently against such a concept?
As well you should..The Barrd said:
1 Tim 2:1-7 NIV I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
OK, I'll accept that apology.justaname said:
The text states God predestined those that love Him, those that accepted His son, to be like His son. I don't know why you all of a sudden you attempt to reword what it does say? It's NOT just in this text, but others as well.
You're letting your doctrinal vernacular influence your assertions now, which I thought we were going to avoid? It's a very slippery slope when you go down that road and inevitably ends up at the place I was trying to avoid. I didn't ADD anything, I exegeted it for you. If I didn't, then deal with what I wrote and please don't deflect to something else.
Thanks
Oh, BTW, I don't debate what others write. I will debate you, not what you read, otherwise we would be putting up endless links to support our individual doctrinal positions. I am NOT interested in doing that. You either KNOW why and what you believe and articulate it, or you don't. Fair enough?
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Thanks!StanJ said:
I have done a bit of research on this particular passage and have come to some definite conclusions on it in a stand alone context. Here I am dealing with this scripture with what it says directly in relation to the language and grammar used without importing any other theological conclusions. This I think we agree is the starting point of interpretation of Scripture. When we have difficulties understanding what we interpret we must use Scripture to interpret Scripture.
There are key portions in that lengthy response that speak directly to our discussion. This is not simply a cut and paste of commentaries rather an organized exegesis of the text using citations. If you carefully read what was posted you will see more than one view was represented in interpreting the text.
I am keying in on this portion of the exegesis because of the significance of glorification being included in the chain presented in the text...
From verse 30 we see the completion of this process God uses in His magnificent plan ordained from eternity past. It is significant to note all the verbs used are subjected to God and are in the aorist.
This bolded portion is so telling in the text and goes directly against your importing personal responsibility. The text states nothing of our actions or abilities rather what God has sovereignly chosen to carry out. All verbs are subjected to God. All verbs are in the aorist. We then are completely passive within this portion of scripture. This is something God is working for His purpose.
Now those whom God predestined He also called. This predestination refers to God’s decision before history began for those whom He foreknew. Call refers to God’s work in history which He summons though the gospel some to Himself. (John 6:44) Those whom He called He also justified. This justification denotes God’s saving activity where the believer is deemed righteous. Lastly presented is those justified are glorified by God. As stated earlier this is interesting being the aorist is used in all these verbs. Some postulate the aorist is ingressive reaching its culmination in the future. Others locate glorification in baptism. Schreiner is against both of these views due to the eschatological thrust of the context and the concept of glorification. He suggests the aorist simply implies that what God has begun He will finish with certainty. (cf. Philippians 1:6)
I leave this idea of Schreiner's because I want to be sure I am exempt of being a plagiarizer. To be sure I agree with his conclusion regarding the grammar.
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Stan,
So then you say God's plan is contingent on our obedience yet this is not what this portion of Scripture conveys. You must import that idea into the text.
We agree concerning predestine...
The etymology of the Greek verb translated “predestine” suggests marking out a boundary beforehand. In the present context predestination is not concerned with election to salvation. Rather, God has foreordained that believers be brought into “moral conformity to the likeness of his Son.” What is predestined is that we become like Christ (cf. 2 Cor 3:18).
For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?”
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’
A concept I find so unusual is how easily we seem understand God can sovereignly bring calamity upon humanity like in the flood or against the old inhabitants of the promised land, yet we find it horrible to think God might sovereignly do something good for us, like save some. Like some how destroying someone against their will is OK but if God saves them against their will it is not OK.
I know had God left me doing my will, I would never be saved. This is not to say I never falter only that He definitely chose me, not that I chose Him.
So then you say God's plan is contingent on our obedience yet this is not what this portion of Scripture conveys. You must import that idea into the text.
We agree concerning predestine...
The etymology of the Greek verb translated “predestine” suggests marking out a boundary beforehand. In the present context predestination is not concerned with election to salvation. Rather, God has foreordained that believers be brought into “moral conformity to the likeness of his Son.” What is predestined is that we become like Christ (cf. 2 Cor 3:18).
For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?”
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’
A concept I find so unusual is how easily we seem understand God can sovereignly bring calamity upon humanity like in the flood or against the old inhabitants of the promised land, yet we find it horrible to think God might sovereignly do something good for us, like save some. Like some how destroying someone against their will is OK but if God saves them against their will it is not OK.
I know had God left me doing my will, I would never be saved. This is not to say I never falter only that He definitely chose me, not that I chose Him.
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