The Doctrine of OSAS

[Barrd]

It seems you have an issue with what scripture presents or at least your interpretation of it...

I have an issue with your interpretation of it. And I'm not one bit impressed with your bibliography. All those "scholarly works" are nothing more than men's opinions. They are not the Word of God.

Clearly Scripture presents God as sovereign in the decisions of man, yet man is culpable for the decisions he makes. This is not to say God makes these decisions for humanity rather humans make the decisions themselves all within the plan of God. God does not go around changing His plans because of the actions of humans. God continually runs with His plan in progression. Christ was slain before the foundations of the world! Before Adam or Eve, before sin entered the world, Christ was the plan of God. So too those who are saved and predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ are chosen before the foundations of the world. This is what scripture presents.

Are you surprised that God knew ahead of time that we would need a Savior?
He is omniscient....but that is not the same thing as making our choices for us.

The Good Shepherd knows all His sheep by name, and His sheep know His voice. They will not follow another and the Shepherd will not lose any the Father has given Him. He will raise them on the last day. Why do you fight so vehemently against such a concept?

These are some of the most precious verses in the Bible. But they do not "prove" OSAS.

Again, knowing is not the same as choosing for us.

 

[Barrd]

It is that attitude that I most object to.

"God chose me, I did not choose Him."

So, what is the point of all the books, and the preaching, etc...if we've all been already chosen for either salvation or destruction ahead of time?
Why even bother with a "judgment"? It's all just a sham...

Or...how do you know you've been chosen? Just because you think you are "saved"....but what if you aren't? Since it is God's sovereign choice, and nothing at all to do with you, how can you ever really be sure?
I mean, here I am, quite sure that I am saved.
But only one of us can be right. The other must surely be wrong.

I am advocating obedience. I believe that Christ looks for a contrite heart. I am talking about repentance.

And you?

 

[StanJ]

Thanks!

I have done a bit of research on this particular passage and have come to some definite conclusions on it in a stand alone context. Here I am dealing with this scripture with what it says directly in relation to the language and grammar used without importing any other theological conclusions. This I think we agree is the starting point of interpretation of Scripture. When we have difficulties understanding what we interpret we must use Scripture to interpret Scripture.

There are key portions in that lengthy response that speak directly to our discussion. This is not simply a cut and paste of commentaries rather an organized exegesis of the text using citations. If you carefully read what was posted you will see more than one view was represented in interpreting the text.

I am keying in on this portion of the exegesis because of the significance of glorification being included in the chain presented in the text...

From verse 30 we see the completion of this process God uses in His magnificent plan ordained from eternity past. It is significant to note all the verbs used are subjected to God and are in the aorist.

This bolded portion is so telling in the text and goes directly against your importing personal responsibility. The text states nothing of our actions or abilities rather what God has sovereignly chosen to carry out. All verbs are subjected to God. All verbs are in the aorist. We then are completely passive within this portion of scripture. This is something God is working for His purpose.

Now those whom God predestined He also called. This predestination refers to God’s decision before history began for those whom He foreknew. Call refers to God’s work in history which He summons though the gospel some to Himself. (John 6:44) Those whom He called He also justified. This justification denotes God’s saving activity where the believer is deemed righteous. Lastly presented is those justified are glorified by God. As stated earlier this is interesting being the aorist is used in all these verbs. Some postulate the aorist is ingressive reaching its culmination in the future. Others locate glorification in baptism. Schreiner is against both of these views due to the eschatological thrust of the context and the concept of glorification. He suggests the aorist simply implies that what God has begun He will finish with certainty. (cf. Philippians 1:6)

There is really no stand alone context when it comes to the Bible. The entire Bible interprets itself, and therefore cannot be used independently of itself.
Be that as it may, I am NOT debating these people, and what they may or may not say. I can do the same thing from my perspective but that NEVER accomplishes anything in this type of forum.
The aorist tense is ONLY significant in the Greek, and there is no English equivalent. The closest we get is a simple past tense in English.
I really have no idea how you arrive at this conclusion, given the wording stands on it's own merit along with what Paul teaches throughout his writings. As such, it is consistent with his view of taking personal responsibility in everything we do.
What God foreknew was who would accept His son as their saviour. It doesn't convey sovereignty as you intend it, it conveys a perfect plan of action from start to finish. God is NOT reactive, He is proactive, and as such has ALL contingencies planned for. It would not require foreknowledge if God simply decided or chose what to do. His foreknowledge comes into play ALL the time, or at least all the times it is mentioned in the NT, which is four times or so.
Sorry but I can't help but feel you are simply quoting someone here without actually citing them now, and quite frankly I don't really care about Schreiner's RT theology unless he is here himself to defend it. I have great respect for Dr. Douglas Moo when it comes to his skills as a translator, but I DON'T agree with his position on Sovereign Election, as he insinuates his POV into the scriptures depending on his reputation, or at least IMO, on his skills as a Greek translator. If the Greek is properly translated, we have no real need to go back to it now do we?

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

So then you say God's plan is contingent on our obedience yet this is not what this portion of Scripture conveys. You must import that idea into the text.

We agree concerning predestine...

​A concept I find so unusual is how easily we seem understand God can sovereignly bring calamity upon humanity like in the flood or against the old inhabitants of the promised land, yet we find it horrible to think God might sovereignly do something good for us, like save some. Like some how destroying someone against their will is OK but if God saves them against their will it is not OK.

I know had God left me doing my will, I would never be saved. This is not to say I never falter only that He definitely chose me, not that I chose Him.

ALL of God's plans have always been contingent on obedience, so I have no idea why you assert this without any corroboration to justify it? I think Peter said it rather succinctly in Acts 5:29 (NIV)

Glad to hear it.

How God acted in the OT and how He acts now are based on HIS plans. Luke makes it very clear in Heb 8 that the OT/OC was obsolete and NOT effective. No different than God creating Adam and Eve and giving them ONE simple command that they did not obey. Do you believe God did NOT know what they would do? I can't and won't be bothered speculating or trying to figure out God's rational, all I can do is faithfully believe what His written words show. Rabbit trails and exceptions to the norm are not what we should look for here. Thematic consistency is, and that is found throughout the NT in this regard. There are not two truths at play here, just one. What our task is, as believers, is to find and understand the one.

My will was to accept what God showed me was truth. Many reject it. None of us are puppets and Jesus makes it very clear we are the seekers, knockers and askers, and in THAT context, it is about finding and recognizing the Way, Truth and Life.

 

[Barrd]

Rev 22:17 is referring to those who accept the free gift of salvation. Notice the words "whoever believes in me" in John 7:38. What are we believing in Barrd...

John 7:38-39 NIV Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Eph 2:8 NIV For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Rev 22:17 NIV The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

I have said this to you before, but it bears repeating.
Believing in Jesus means loving Him, and trusting Him...do you trust Him enough to obey Him?
If you love Him, you will obey His commandments.
All of them.
If you do not obey Him, you do not love Him.

His sheep hear His voice....and what do they hear Him saying?
I promise you, they do not hear Him telling them that they cannot be lost. He will not leave us, that is true.
But there are hundreds...perhaps thousands...who do walk away from Him.
You can say that they were never saved to begin with, but you cannot know another man's heart.

And, if, as some of you evidently think, God chose His elect before anyone was ever created, how can you actually know that you are one of those so chosen? Is there some identifying mark that the rest of us do not have? Maybe a "reserved" stamp on your bottom...uh...the bottom of your foot?

If everyone is "predestined", then what is the judgment all about?
Why even bother with the crucifixion? Or is God a masochist?

 

[justaname]

Stan,

The epistle to the Romans was written to a specific audience. Thereby this portion of the epistle has a specific meaning meant to be able to be understood by that audience. This audience did not have the whole cannon of Scripture to refer to, yet Paul was able to convey understanding to his audience including this passage. If anything they would have used the epistle in it's entirety to reflect on for contextual value. All Scripture is able to stand within it's own context from this perspective. This is basic to hermeneutics.

Yes the aroist tense is significant both in the Greek and English. Being glorified is attached to the chain that God sovereignly ordains. It is presented as past tense, continual with God as the subject or initiator. The significance is clear. This is the sovereign plan for all who are foreknown by God. His call is effectual for those who are predestined to be conformed into the image of His Son. Those predestined are justified, those justified are glorified. There is no break in the chain. This is not the plan for apostates. This is not the plan for unbelievers. This is God's plan of salvation for those who believe and endure! Either you are in it or you are not. There is no in it for a while then out because these are foreknown by God to endure. Those that abide do and will abide; those that don't are not among those who are foreknown and predestined. This logic is clear and this passage supports it because the chain is unbroken unto glory.

Now to speak on God's election is of a different manner. I need only say Jacob over Esau...the Potter has rights over the clay. Like it or not God is on the throne.

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

This passage speaks directly to God being sovereign over the actions of men without culpability. It was His plan Jesus be crucified, yet these men in their own free will put Him to death.

ALL of God's plans have always been contingent on obedience, so I have no idea why you assert this without any corroboration to justify it? I think Peter said it rather succinctly in Acts 5:29 (NIV)

Yet we have this that contradicts your statement...

"I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me."

How God acted in the OT and how He acts now are based on HIS plans.

Yet God never changes...immutable.

Luke makes it very clear in Heb 8 that the OT/OC was obsolete and NOT effective. No different than God creating Adam and Eve and giving them ONE simple command that they did not obey. Do you believe God did NOT know what they would do?

I have been the one promoting God's sovereignty and omniscience...Jesus was slain before the foundations of the world.

I can't and won't be bothered speculating or trying to figure out God's rational, all I can do is faithfully believe what His written words show.

Then why not look at His words without importing your opinions into the text? Figuring out God's rational is theology.

Rabbit trails and exceptions to the norm are not what we should look for here. Thematic consistency is, and that is found throughout the NT in this regard. There are not two truths at play here, just one. What our task is, as believers, is to find and understand the one.

I agree, yet we are discussing theology and doctrine, not application.

My will was to accept what God showed me was truth. Many reject it. None of us are puppets and Jesus makes it very clear we are the seekers, knockers and askers, and in THAT context, it is about finding and recognizing the Way, Truth and Life.

And Jesus also says He comes for a specific flock and not all are of His flock. Jesus also selected the twelve. Jesus also selected Saul. None of these were puppets.

 

[justaname]

I have an issue with your interpretation of it. And I'm not one bit impressed with your bibliography. All those "scholarly works" are nothing more than men's opinions. They are not the Word of God.


Are you surprised that God knew ahead of time that we would need a Savior?
He is omniscient....but that is not the same thing as making our choices for us.

These are some of the most precious verses in the Bible. But they do not "prove" OSAS.

Again, knowing is not the same as choosing for us.

Did you even read what you quoted? I said God does not make our decisions...

Now as far as "proving" OSAS I am not attempting to do that. I give evidence supporting the perseverance of the saints doctrine. Here is all the evidence I need from the mouth of God...

John 6
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


Will you be bold enough to say Jesus will lose some? If they walk away on their own accord Jesus has lost them and failed His Father. God the Father gives God the Son those who are raised up on the last day. These are chosen by God for glory predestined to be conformed into the image of the Son.

 

[justaname]

It is that attitude that I most object to.

"God chose me, I did not choose Him."

So, what is the point of all the books, and the preaching, etc...if we've all been already chosen for either salvation or destruction ahead of time?
Why even bother with a "judgment"? It's all just a sham...

Or...how do you know you've been chosen? Just because you think you are "saved"....but what if you aren't? Since it is God's sovereign choice, and nothing at all to do with you, how can you ever really be sure?
I mean, here I am, quite sure that I am saved.
But only one of us can be right. The other must surely be wrong.

I am advocating obedience. I believe that Christ looks for a contrite heart. I am talking about repentance.

And you?

Then you should object to the apostles, to Saul, to Jeremiah, to Moses, to Abraham, to Noah, to Enoch.

If you are quite sure you are saved then why do you argue against the perseverance of the saints doctrine?

I advocate obedience. Christ knows the hearts of all of humanity, and humbles the proud yet exalts the humble. I acknowledge repentance.

The only way to know you have eternal life is to believe the Word of God.

1John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[ATP]

I have said this to you before, but it bears repeating.
Believing in Jesus means loving Him, and trusting Him...do you trust Him enough to obey Him?
If you love Him, you will obey His commandments.
All of them.
If you do not obey Him, you do not love Him.

I agree, and true believers will be convicted of righteousness throughout their lives. But we are only righteous because of Him working in us.

Phil 2:12-13 NIV Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

His sheep hear His voice....and what do they hear Him saying?
I promise you, they do not hear Him telling them that they cannot be lost. He will not leave us, that is true.

We talked about this remember? The Bible describes "the lost" as those who haven't obtained salvation yet. They are His sheep vs they are not His sheep is about belief and unbelief John 10:26 NIV. Are you willing to accept these verses?

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

But there are hundreds...perhaps thousands...who do walk away from Him.
You can say that they were never saved to begin with, but you cannot know another man's heart.

If one says they are Christian, and then two years later they deny Christ, then these people were never born of grace Barrd. Grace is what keeps you until death.

1 John 2:22 NIV Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 NIV but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 1:7 NIV I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

And, if, as some of you evidently think, God chose His elect before anyone was ever created, how can you actually know that you are one of those so chosen? Is there some identifying mark that the rest of us do not have? Maybe a "reserved" stamp on your bottom...uh...the bottom of your foot?

If everyone is "predestined", then what is the judgment all about?
Why even bother with the crucifixion? Or is God a masochist?

I agree. All people have a choice to accept the free gift of salvation. Otherwise, it would be considered rape Barrd.

For example, God is not forcing us to believe and confess in Rom 10:9. We are choosing to do this on our own.

 

[mjrhealth]

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

God does not go back on His word...

In all His Love

 

[H. Richard]

I personally think that when we think about scriptures concerning pre-destination / election we are looking at the subject too close to the "individual" person. I feel that I must step back and look at it from the perspective that God predestinated / elected "groups" that people fall into, namely those that have, or will, place their faith in Jesus’ work on the cross (the "predestinated / elected" group) and those that have not, or will not, except Him.

I don't know of a good analogy but I will try this one. In our society we predestinate that whoever breaks the laws of society should go to jail. But we do not choose who will break the law. It is the individuals choice.

Now let us say that we can time travel. If we could go ahead, in time, we would know which ones choose to break the laws and which ones were in jail. God would know this since He can see the end from the beginning.

Perhaps this is a simplistic way to look at it but is helpful to me so that I don't have to say that God pointed at an individual person and choose him for destruction by not giving that person an equal chance. Although I know that He can do as He wishes.

Rom 8:27-30 NKJV
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to “””those””” who love God, to “””those””” who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom (a member of those) He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, “””these””” He also called; whom He called, “””these””” He also justified; and whom (whom = a member of these) He justified, these He also glorified.

Notice the change of words from whom to these.

What this does is prove that OSAS is valid.

My two cents worth.

 

[ladodgers6]

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

God does not go back on His word...

In all His Love

A course, repentance is a gift as well. But repentance does not save us. Its Christ and him alone that saves. Repentance is what we do after being save by Christ. Repentance is part of the new creation in Christ. And not even our works as believers save us. Only the works of Christ save us!

 

[ladodgers6]

I personally think that when we think about scriptures concerning pre-destination / election we are looking at the subject too close to the "individual" person. I feel that I must step back and look at it from the perspective that God predestinated / elected "groups" that people fall into, namely those that have, or will, place their faith in Jesus’ work on the cross (the "predestinated / elected" group) and those that have not, or will not, except Him.

I don't know of a good analogy but I will try this one. In our society we predestinate that whoever breaks the laws of society should go to jail. But we do not choose who will break the law. It is the individuals choice.

Now let us say that we can time travel. If we could go ahead, in time, we would know which ones choose to break the laws and which ones were in jail. God would know this since He can see the end from the beginning.

Perhaps this is a simplistic way to look at it but is helpful to me so that I don't have to say that God pointed at an individual person and choose him for destruction by not giving that person an equal chance. Although I know that He can do as He wishes.

Rom 8:27-30 NKJV
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to “””those””” who love God, to “””those””” who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom (a member of those) He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, “””these””” He also called; whom He called, “””these””” He also justified; and whom (whom = a member of these) He justified, these He also glorified.

Notice the change of words from whom to these.

What this does is prove that OSAS is valid.

My two cents worth.

This is not minority report. A pre-crime syndicate to see into the future before a crime happens. Rather the crucial point you grossly miss is that we do not need to see into future, but in the past. To understand our situation before a Holy God; is to understand what happen in the garden. We are a nation of rebels and we are hostile toward God. We are his enemies and hate the light. People who fail to see this miserable condition we are in. And are quickly to assume that predestination and election is unfair, that God is unfair IF THE DESTINATION/ELECTION is true. They believe that people are good and can go to heaven by performing good deeds, as if God will lower his standard of holiness to let us in. God demands perfection, and nothing less. And people will still throw rocks before they fall to their knees before a Holy God, and beg for Mercy! God has a plan of redemption.

 

[Barrd]

Then you should object to the apostles, to Saul, to Jeremiah, to Moses, to Abraham, to Noah, to Enoch.

If you are quite sure you are saved then why do you argue against the perseverance of the saints doctrine?

I advocate obedience. Christ knows the hearts of all of humanity, and humbles the proud yet exalts the humble. I acknowledge repentance.

The only way to know you have eternal life is to believe the Word of God.

1John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

For some reason, people want to leave those first two verses out. Obedience is just not something they want to talk about...

God is omniscient.
He knows before we are born what choices we will make. So, in a way, I suppose you could call that "predestination"... But it isn't the same thing as God choosing to create this person evil and that one good.

We make our own choices...God gives us our free will. Salvation is offered to everyone equally, and it is up to each individual to accept it or not. Does God know in advance which "whosoever will", of course. But it is still our choice. We aren't created in such a way that we must obey or disobey...we make these choices of ourselves. It isn't as if our brains were pre-programmed. If it were, then that would not be real love...which is the whole point.

 

[ATP]

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

God does not go back on His word...

In all His Love

Also notice who is spoken of in regards to being loved, the enemies vs the elect...

the elect are no longer enemies of God, nonbelievers are..Nahum 1:2 ESV, Rom 5:10-11 NIV, Rom 11:28 NIV, Rom 12:19-20 NIV, Heb 10:27 NIV

Rom 11:28-29 NIV As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

 

[Barrd]

Again, I can't see how the notion that God chose you before you were ever born could possibly not foster insufferable pride.
Just think....before you ever said your first word, God knew what a great guy you were. Before you ever took your first step, your final destination was set. Before you were even out of your nappies, God had a white robe and a golden crown, all ready, just for you.
How very special you must be....so unlike the ragged, dirty, sinful masses....you know....the rest of humanity....the ones that God hates.

And yet:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

To put it in the famous words of that big yellow bird we all once loved...

One of these things is not like the other.....One of these things just doesn't belong
Can you tell me which thing just doesn't belong here?
Guess before I sing this song....

 

[Barrd]

So, why would Jesus have to "go and prepare a place for you"?

Your place was ready before your Momma ever put you in your little bassinet for the very first time....

 

[justaname]

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

For some reason, people want to leave those first two verses out. Obedience is just not something they want to talk about...

God is omniscient.
He knows before we are born what choices we will make. So, in a way, I suppose you could call that "predestination"... But it isn't the same thing as God choosing to create this person evil and that one good.

We make our own choices...God gives us our free will. Salvation is offered to everyone equally, and it is up to each individual to accept it or not. Does God know in advance which "whosoever will", of course. But it is still our choice. We aren't created in such a way that we must obey or disobey...we make these choices of ourselves. It isn't as if our brains were pre-programmed. If it were, then that would not be real love...which is the whole point.

Now you are confusing foreknowledge with predestination...

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

The epistle to the Romans was written to a specific audience. Thereby this portion of the epistle has a specific meaning meant to be able to be understood by that audience. This audience did not have the whole cannon of Scripture to refer to, yet Paul was able to convey understanding to his audience including this passage. If anything they would have used the epistle in it's entirety to reflect on for contextual value. All Scripture is able to stand within it's own context from this perspective. This is basic to hermeneutics.

Yes it was indeed....believers, and as a believer it must be in line with ALL scripture, which it also it. Are you questioning the universality of scripture despite what Paul also wrote in 2 Tim 3:16 (NIV) ? They didn't need to have ALL scripture, because Paul was called to deliver that gospel, but after the fact, as per PROPER Hermeneutical Exegesis, it is consistent with ALL that Paul wrote. V7 does address it; To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Are you asserting that is LIMITED to those people on the 1st century AD? BTW, context has nothing to do with who it is written to, it has to do with WHAT is being said in relation to situations or overall truths.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,


Yes the aroist tense is significant both in the Greek and English. Being glorified is attached to the chain that God sovereignly ordains. It is presented as past tense, continual with God as the subject or initiator. The significance is clear. This is the sovereign plan for all who are foreknown by God. His call is effectual for those who are predestined to be conformed into the image of His Son. Those predestined are justified, those justified are glorified. There is no break in the chain. This is not the plan for apostates. This is not the plan for unbelievers. This is God's plan of salvation for those who believe and endure! Either you are in it or you are not. There is no in it for a while then out because these are foreknown by God to endure. Those that abide do and will abide; those that don't are not among those who are foreknown and predestined. This logic is clear and this passage supports it because the chain is unbroken unto glory.

No, ONLY in Greek as I said. In English it becomes past tense. I can give you a definition from Strong's if you need it? The Greek word for glorified, is δοξάζω (doxazō), and is used in the past tense to describe a complete chain of events that occur AFTER salvation. Predestined is NOT written in stone, as the 10 commandments were, it signifies that if a man faithfully & obediently responds to the leading of the Holy Spirit in their lives, they will accomplish God's plan. This is why we are told to work OUT our salvation as God works in us. Phil 2:12 (NIV) Everything God's want to accomplish in our lives depends on OUR obedience. If it was not up to us to obey, all of what scriptures says about obeying would be useless and redundant, just as the call to persevere would be. So as you see, it does NOT stand on it's own, but requires assimilating ALL scripture.