The Doctrine of OSAS

[StanJ]

Now to speak on God's election is of a different manner. I need only say Jacob over Esau...the Potter has rights over the clay. Like it or not God is on the throne.

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

This passage speaks directly to God being sovereign over the actions of men without culpability. It was His plan Jesus be crucified, yet these men in their own free will put Him to death.


Yet we have this that contradicts your statement...

"I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me."



Yet God never changes...immutable.


I have been the one promoting God's sovereignty and omniscience...Jesus was slain before the foundations of the world.


Then why not look at His words without importing your opinions into the text? Figuring out God's rational is theology.


I agree, yet we are discussing theology and doctrine, not application.


And Jesus also says He comes for a specific flock and not all are of His flock. Jesus also selected the twelve. Jesus also selected Saul. None of these were puppets.

As I said, election is not the issue here, but already you seem to not be able to separate the petals?

Yes, the plan of salvation and that God would become incarnate in Jesus, so He would die and reconcile mankind to himself. ALL based on His FOREKNOWLEDGE, not His so-called Sovereign Election. Just as Paul also shows in Rom 8 as we have been discussing.

God's covenant with the people of Israel is not over or fulfilled, which you can see in Revelation 7 & 14, but this is going off track.

God doesn't change, man does. Don't mistake progression with change. Man changes. EVERYTHING God planned, He did BEFORE He ever created on molecule in our universe. Again, He is NOT reactive, but has always been proactive, in that He has planned for ALL contingencies before ANYTHING ever started. You need to assimilate THAT first and foremost.

Jesus said He came personally to minster to ONLY the lost sheep of Israel, NOT that His message was only for them, and calling Paul and Peter to go into ALL the world shows that.

 

[justaname]

Yes it was indeed....believers, and as a believer it must be in line with ALL scripture, which it also it. Are you questioning the universality of scripture despite what Paul also wrote in 2 Tim 3:16 (NIV) ? They didn't need to have ALL scripture, because Paul was called to deliver that gospel, but after the fact, as per PROPER Hermeneutical Exegesis, it is consistent with ALL that Paul wrote. V7 does address it; To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Are you asserting that is LIMITED to those people on the 1st century AD? BTW, context has nothing to do with who it is written to, it has to do with WHAT is being said in relation to situations or overall truths.

This is an affirmation of your choosing to eisegete the text. Notice you bend the "in line with all scripture" to suit your doctrinal bent. I simple exegete the text for what it says. This is where you and I differ regarding this text.

 

[justaname]

No, ONLY in Greek as I said. In English it becomes past tense. I can give you a definition from Strong's if you need it? The Greek word for glorified, is δοξάζω (doxazō), and is used in the past tense to describe a complete chain of events that occur AFTER salvation. Predestined is NOT written in stone, as the 10 commandments were, it signifies that if a man faithfully & obediently responds to the leading of the Holy Spirit in their lives, they will accomplish God's plan. This is why we are told to work OUT our salvation as God works in us. Phil 2:12 (NIV) Everything God's want to accomplish in our lives depends on OUR obedience. If it was not up to us to obey, all of what scriptures says about obeying would be useless and redundant, just as the call to persevere would be. So as you see, it does NOT stand on it's own, but requires assimilating ALL scripture.

You make unsubstantiated claims in this response. You also make claims that are irrelevant. Then you redefine predestination to suit your doctrinal bent. Lastly the final premise you give is no argument at all if you approach the calls to preserve as exhortation. The negative aspect of the exhortations are true outcomes for those who do not preserve.

Those who do not preserve were never in God's plan of salvation...

Firstly a words definition should not change concerning a translation. This then would convey a different idea.

Glorification is not defined properly in your response, although this is not the point I want to address. Glorification is something that happens at the culmination of salvation, not after salvation.
Predestined does not need to be written in stone if God ordains it. Did He write in stone the gospel at all?
Everything God desires to accomplish in our lives depends on His desire, not our obedience. Nebuchadnezzar, Pharoah, Cyrus, and Jonah are some scriptural examples.

declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' - Isaiah 46:10

 

[Barrd]

Where does this idea that "those who do not perservere were never in God's plan of salvation" come from?

I can't find it in scripture.

Now, I'm just a simple gal...you know, akin to such peasants as fishermen, or farmers, or carpenters and the like. Perhaps we weren't meant to understand it....

Yet, somehow, in over 50 years of reading and studying the Bible, this concept seems to have escaped me.

 

[justaname]

Where does this idea that "those who do not perservere were never in God's plan of salvation" come from?

I can't find it in scripture.

Now, I'm just a simple gal...you know, akin to such peasants as fishermen, or farmers, or carpenters and the like. Perhaps we weren't meant to understand it....

Yet, somehow, in over 50 years of reading and studying the Bible, this concept seems to have escaped me.

Do you believe everybody is saved?

 

[Barrd]

Do you believe everybody is saved?

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Even a simple peasant girl like me can understand that.

 

[Barrd]

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

For some reason, people want to leave those first two verses out. Obedience is just not something they want to talk about...

But it didn't take a college degree for me to figure out that obedience is necessary.

 

[justaname]

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Even a simple peasant girl like me can understand that.

So then only those God saves are a part of His plan of salvation. All others are under His wrath.

 

[Barrd]

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

These verses seem pretty straight forward...

 

[Barrd]

So then only those God saves are a part of His plan of salvation. All others are under His wrath.

It seems to me that it is those who choose for themselves the strait path, eschewing the broad and well traveled highway who are saved.

Else, why the instruction in the first place?

 

[justaname]

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

For some reason, people want to leave those first two verses out. Obedience is just not something they want to talk about...

But it didn't take a college degree for me to figure out that obedience is necessary.

Yet the thief on the cross only had faith and was rewarded with paradise and Jesus' company.

And I have never spoken against obedience. Those who are His sheep hear and follow His voice.

 

[Barrd]

Why all these instructions to obey, to walk the strait path and avoid the well traveled highway, and to trust in God even necessary, if we've all been chosen ahead of time, anyway?

Why are we told about a judgment to come, if all was decided before the universe was made?

Is it all some kind of cruel practical joke?

 

[justaname]

It seems to me that it is those who choose for themselves the strait path, eschewing the broad and well traveled highway who are saved.

Else, why the instruction in the first place?

Who said they don't choose?

 

[Barrd]

Yet the thief on the cross only had faith and was rewarded with paradise and Jesus' company.

And I have never spoken against obedience. Those who are His sheep hear and follow His voice.

Did you notice that the thief was on the cross??
Not a good place to be.
But what did he say?

Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I submit that the thief on the cross had a contrite and repentant heart. That is what saved him.

Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

The man knew that he deserved the punishment he was receiving. You have to respect him for that.

 

[Barrd]

Who said they don't choose?

If they are carefully programmed before their birth for salvation, then they do not choose, any more than this computer chooses.

 

[justaname]

Did you notice that the thief was on the cross??
Not a good place to be.
But what did he say?

Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I submit that the thief on the cross had a contrite and repentant heart. That is what saved him.

Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

The man knew that he deserved the punishment he was receiving. You have to respect him for that.

I submit it was God that saved him.

 

[justaname]

If they are carefully programmed before their birth for salvation, then they do not choose, any more than this computer chooses.

Who said they are carefully programmed?

 

[Barrd]

I personally think that when we think about scriptures concerning pre-destination / election we are looking at the subject too close to the "individual" person. I feel that I must step back and look at it from the perspective that God predestinated / elected "groups" that people fall into, namely those that have, or will, place their faith in Jesus’ work on the cross (the "predestinated / elected" group) and those that have not, or will not, except Him.

I don't know of a good analogy but I will try this one. In our society we predestinate that whoever breaks the laws of society should go to jail. But we do not choose who will break the law. It is the individuals choice.

Now let us say that we can time travel. If we could go ahead, in time, we would know which ones choose to break the laws and which ones were in jail. God would know this since He can see the end from the beginning.

Perhaps this is a simplistic way to look at it but is helpful to me so that I don't have to say that God pointed at an individual person and choose him for destruction by not giving that person an equal chance. Although I know that He can do as He wishes.

Rom 8:27-30 NKJV
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to “””those””” who love God, to “””those””” who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom (a member of those) He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, “””these””” He also called; whom He called, “””these””” He also justified; and whom (whom = a member of these) He justified, these He also glorified.

Notice the change of words from whom to these.

What this does is prove that OSAS is valid.

My two cents worth.

But, Richard, if there were some way we could look into the future and see who would break the law, don't you think we'd try to intervene? Don't you suppose we'd help these people before they did whatever crime landed them into trouble?

Something to think about....

 

[ATP]

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Even a simple peasant girl like me can understand that.

These passages are about coming to faith. Jesus is the gate of salvation.

Where does this idea that "those who do not perservere were never in God's plan of salvation" come from?

I can't find it in scripture.

John 6:35-37 NIV Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

John 17:26 NIV I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Rom 7:21-25 NIV So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

2 Cor 1:9-10 NIV / 2 Cor 3:12 NIV Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us,

Col 1:3-5 NIV We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints--5 the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel

2 Tim 2:13 NIV if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

2 Tim 4:18 NIV The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Heb 6:16-19 NIV Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,

Heb 7:23-25 NIV Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Jude 1:24-25 NIV To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

 

[Barrd]

I submit it was God that saved him.

Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

How do you discount his confession? And how do you not see that his acceptance of his guilt and his punishment signify repentance?

Have we truly forgotten the horror of crucifixion? This wasn't a pleasant conversation at the company picnic...the guy had been nailed to a cross, and was hanging there, in extreme agony, dying.
And yet, he knew he had earned his punishment.