The Doctrine of OSAS

[Barrd]

I do not think of the Bible as a bunch of doctrines.

To me, it is one, complete Holy Book.

It is the Word of God. No other books are needed...

 

[ATP]

This is the scripture you posted:

John 6
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

 

[Barrd]

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

This is only a partial post, and totally ignores the point being made.
ATP, your tactics haven't changed. Back to ignore you go....

 

[ATP]

The more people who put me on ignore, the more I know I'm doing my job.

 

[ATP]

We persevere because God preserves us until the end. The one who denies this is not secure in their salvation, therefore they do not have it.

 

[mjrhealth]

It comes down to 2 text that main it plain and clear Bard.

You know how you are so troubled by sin

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Than there is this one, you know how you keep telling us it is foolishness...

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

And yes many refuse to be taught of God simply because their cup is full and they leave no room for Him..

In all His Love

 

[justaname]

This is the scripture you posted:

John 6
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Do you see a verse number there? I don't.
So, I went to my E-Sword...which is what I usually do, anyway.

Your verses here are directly related to the verses I posted.
Your accusation is not intellectually honest, Justaname.

Did you read the entire chapter?

The were grumbling about more than just Jesus calling Himself "bread from heaven"...

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

One scripture does not contradict another scripture. This scripture does not answer my question.

This is the same tactic you complain about just a few posts up...

Answer the question.

Does Jesus lose any the Father gives Him?

BTW I don't want to hear about Judas...God does not save devils...Judas' fate was known as the betrayer, scripture foretold about him...

 

[justaname]

Okay, then what do you call it?
Was the thief speaking his own words from his own heart?
Or was he "predestined" to speak those particular words when the time came?

This man spoke his own words, God knew he would and it was a part of His plan.

 

[justaname]

Who is this Vincent Cheung, whenever he's at home?

Jesus, I know, and Peter I know. Paul, and James and Jude...all of these I know.

Who the heck is Vincent Cheung? I don't believe the Bible mentions him....

This is invalid...

The Bible does not mention you either...

 

[justaname]

I do not think of the Bible as a bunch of doctrines.

To me, it is one, complete Holy Book.

It is the Word of God. No other books are needed...

What about the people who misunderstand what the Bible says? God gives some as teachers and preachers.

The Bible is made up of several books...

Doctrines are apportioned to our faith, the Bible supports and is the authority for the doctrines.

 

[Barrd]

One scripture does not contradict another scripture. This scripture does not answer my question.

This is the same tactic you complain about just a few posts up...

Answer the question.

Does Jesus lose any the Father gives Him?

BTW I don't want to hear about Judas...God does not save devils...Judas' fate was known as the betrayer, scripture foretold about him...

First of all, Jesus doesn't "lose" anyone. Someone falling away, or losing his or her faith is not something Jesus does...it is something that individual does.
Second, your remark about Judas is uncalled for.
You do know the man suicided, yes?

One thing you said that was right...one scripture doesn't contradict another scripture.
Therefore, all of those scriptures that talk about how we can fall away, or leave our faith, are valid.

 

[Barrd]

This is invalid...

The Bible does not mention you either...

For that matter, it doesn't mention you, either.

However, I refuse to entertain some outside source other than the Bible. I'm quite sure we could find many "scholarly works" that also refute the OSAS doctrine. However, I'm not going to bother looking for them, because they are not the Word of God...just the opinions of men, and therefore, mean absolutely nothing as far as this conversation is concerned.

I do believe you are attempting to use a fallacy called "argument from authority". We could introduce the writings of, say, Richard Dawkins, and "prove" that there is no God in the first place, and the entire argument is moot.

Whats-is-name Cheoung, or whatever, is no different than Dawkins in that he's just a guy with his own ideas about things.

So, he wrote a book....big deal. Any idiot can write a book.

 

[Barrd]

This is a straw man. You speak of the preprogramming...not me.

You have the faulty understanding here...

You know what is funny, is that we've come a long way from simply arguing about OSAS.

These ideas of yours...that God creates people specifically to destroy them, for instance....are totally unacceptable to me. I can't even imagine how you could believe that about a God Who is the very personification of LOVE.
It seems to me to be a singularly nasty aspersion on His character.
Not enough to have Him torturing people in hell through eternity, now, it seems, He actually creates people for the purpose. What a sadistic monster you have painted...

And then, there is the insistence on changing the wording from "perserverence of the saints" to "preservation of the saints", which is quite a different thing. Perserverence is something that we do for ourselves. Preservation, on the other hand, requires no effort on our part.

Basically, you seem to have the idea that some folks, through no fault of their own, simply have no chance at all to be saved, because God rejected them before He ever created the first molecule.

My question, then, is this.

What is the point of any of it, then? Why bother to preach the gospel at all? Why have a judgment, if the outcome were pre-arranged? Why would Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross, if salvation had already been accomplished before creation? Not only a sadist, you paint God to also be a masochist.

The god you worship is evidently one messed up dude...

Nothing whatsoever at all like the God of the Bible....

 

[lforrest]

What is the point? It is to do the will of God that he has ordained for us to do.

If you are given the opertunity to share the Gospel with someone, what you do is part of both your destinies. If you let the opertunity slip through your fingers, either someone else will need to do it or it will never happen. Whatever happens is destiny as well..

Perhaps it is better when he keeps his own council sometimes.

 

[Barrd]

If everything is pre-ordained, then all we are is robots, going through the motions.

But the horrifying thing is that there are people who actually believe that God purposely creates the majority of human beings only to destroy them.

Of course, the ones who believe that do not include themselves in the pre-doomed majority.

They are the ones who are pre-chosen. Before they were first placed in their wee bassinet, God had prepared a place for them in Heaven. But they aren't proud....oh, no, no!

What was it people used to say?
BALDERDASH!!

 

[ATP]

Judas died before Pentecost, before the seal of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ladodgers6]

As I said, election is not the issue here, but already you seem to not be able to separate the petals?

Yes, the plan of salvation and that God would become incarnate in Jesus, so He would die and reconcile mankind to himself. ALL based on His FOREKNOWLEDGE, not His so-called Sovereign Election. Just as Paul also shows in Rom 8 as we have been discussing.

God's covenant with the people of Israel is not over or fulfilled, which you can see in Revelation 7 & 14, but this is going off track.

God doesn't change, man does. Don't mistake progression with change. Man changes. EVERYTHING God planned, He did BEFORE He ever created on molecule in our universe. Again, He is NOT reactive, but has always been proactive, in that He has planned for ALL contingencies before ANYTHING ever started. You need to assimilate THAT first and foremost.

Jesus said He came personally to minster to ONLY the lost sheep of Israel, NOT that His message was only for them, and calling Paul and Peter to go into ALL the world shows that.

Romans 9 is lucid and concise to what is the focus. So please explain these passages: 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Don't avoid them but address them head on.

Thanks

 

[StanJ]

You make unsubstantiated claims in this response. You also make claims that are irrelevant. Then you redefine predestination to suit your doctrinal bent. Lastly the final premise you give is no argument at all if you approach the calls to preserve as exhortation. The negative aspect of the exhortations are true outcomes for those who do not preserve.

Those who do not preserve were never in God's plan of salvation...

Firstly a words definition should not change concerning a translation. This then would convey a different idea.

Glorification is not defined properly in your response, although this is not the point I want to address. Glorification is something that happens at the culmination of salvation, not after salvation.
Predestined does not need to be written in stone if God ordains it. Did He write in stone the gospel at all?
Everything God desires to accomplish in our lives depends on His desire, not our obedience. Nebuchadnezzar, Pharoah, Cyrus, and Jonah are some scriptural examples.

declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' - Isaiah 46:10

It now become VERY clear that you have NO real intention of debating civilly or honestly, so I won't bother going any further with you.

You have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don't you remember? (Mark 8:18)

 

[StanJ]

Don't avoid them but address them head on.

You mean don't do as you do but only as you say?

Funny, as I was going to say the same thing to you about this post which doesn't address a thing from my post, which it purports to address.

 

[Barrd]

You mean don't do as you do but only as you say?

Funny, as I was going to say the same thing to you about this post which doesn't address a thing from my post, which it purports to address.

It has been my unfortunate experience that a great many OSASers do this.
As another beloved brother has said...it's like trying to herd cats....