The Doctrine of OSAS

[justaname]

Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

How do you discount his confession? And how do you not see that his acceptance of his guilt and his punishment signify repentance?

Have we truly forgotten the horror of crucifixion? This wasn't a pleasant conversation at the company picnic...the guy had been nailed to a cross, and was hanging there, in extreme agony, dying.
And yet, he knew he had earned his punishment.

And it was still God that brought him to paradise.

 

[Barrd]

These passages are about coming to faith. Jesus is the gate of salvation.

Then why don't they say so plainly?

John 6:35-37 NIV Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

John 17:26 NIV I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Rom 7:21-25 NIV So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

2 Cor 1:9-10 NIV / 2 Cor 3:12 NIV Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us,

Col 1:3-5 NIV We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints--5 the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel

2 Tim 2:13 NIV if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

2 Tim 4:18 NIV The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Heb 6:16-19 NIV Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,

Heb 7:23-25 NIV Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Jude 1:24-25 NIV To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

I'm not going to read a long wall of text.
I've learned that you won't listen anyway, so there's no point in it.

 

[Barrd]

And it was still God that brought him to paradise.

So, if his confession and his repentance meant nothing, what happened to the other guy?

 

[justaname]

Those opposed to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints please deal with this text.

John 6
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


Will you be bold enough to say Jesus will lose some? If they walk away on their own accord Jesus has lost them and failed His Father. God the Father gives God the Son those who are raised up on the last day. These are chosen by God for glory predestined to be conformed into the image of the Son.

 

[Barrd]

And it was still God that brought him to paradise.

Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Did this man choose to speak those words?
Or were they pre-programmed into him?

 

[justaname]

So, if his confession and his repentance meant nothing, what happened to the other guy?

Who said his confession and repentance meant nothing?

God is the active force in all who are saved. The Scripture reveals this extensively. Faith is the requirement for salvation. Obedience is the sign we are in possession of a salvific faith. Repentance is what we do in coming to faith. We repent from the idea that we can save ourselves, that we don't need to be saved, and from the idea that Jesus is not Lord.

To speak repentance in another way we change our way of thinking concerning Jesus and sin.

 

[justaname]

Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Did this man choose to speak those words?
Or were they pre-programmed into him?

Did he surprise God when he said them?

 

[Barrd]

Those opposed to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints please deal with this text.

John 6
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


Will you be bold enough to say Jesus will lose some? If they walk away on their own accord Jesus has lost them and failed His Father. God the Father gives God the Son those who are raised up on the last day. These are chosen by God for glory predestined to be conformed into the image of the Son.

Go down the page just a little bit, and you will find this:

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me..

"they shall all be taught of God." That sounds pretty inclusive, doesn't it? And yet, not all of them are saved. Why is that?

"Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.. "

God is willing to teach all of us. But only those who listen and learn will come to Him.
Not those who were pre-programmed...but those who have heard...

 

[justaname]

Go down the page just a little bit, and you will find this:

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me..

"they shall all be taught of God." That sounds pretty inclusive, doesn't it? And yet, not all of them are saved. Why is that?

"Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.. "

God is willing to teach all of us. But only those who listen and learn will come to Him.
Not those who were pre-programmed...but those who have heard...

Please deal with the doctrine of the preservation of the saints, not the doctrine of election.

 

[Barrd]

Who said his confession and repentance meant nothing?

God is the active force in all who are saved. The Scripture reveals this extensively. Faith is the requirement for salvation. Obedience is the sign we are in possession of a salvific faith. Repentance is what we do in coming to faith. We repent from the idea that we can save ourselves, that we don't need to be saved, and from the idea that Jesus is not Lord.

To speak repentance in another way we change our way of thinking concerning Jesus and sin.

So, there are requirements.
Faith.
Obedience.
Repentance.

These are things we choose for ourselves....and these are things we can also reject for ourselves.

Yes, yes, yes....It is God Who does the saving. But it is up to us whether or not to respond to His plea...

 

[justaname]

So, there are requirements.
Faith.
Obedience.
Repentance.

These are things we choose for ourselves....and these are things we can also reject for ourselves.

Yes, yes, yes....It is God Who does the saving. But it is up to us whether or not to respond to His plea...

Faith is the requirement as given in the gospel. Repentance is the action we take before we come to faith. Obedience is what we do while remaining faithful.

This we do on our own (with the help of God) yet God knows before who will do these things. This is God's foreknowledge.
Those who do these things are predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ. This is predestination as spoken of in the Romans passage.

Again God is sovereign in His plan but we are responsible for our decisions.

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

This portion of Scripture speaks to God's election on whom He bestows His mercy. This is the doctrine you seem to get hung up on or disagree with. But this portion of Scripture speaks for itself.

Without question Paul is speaking about God's sovereign election within this portion of Scripture. We also know some do not even get a chance to hear the gospel, God shows them no mercy in this regard. God's kindness leads to repentance.

Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

 

[Barrd]

Please deal with the doctrine of the preservation of the saints, not the doctrine of election.

In other words, you don't have an answer.

But that's okay....I didn't expect you would have.



Why do you persist in calling it "preservation of the saints"? The term is "perserverence of the saints".

Perseverance of the saints is the Calvinist doctrine that those who are truly saved will persevere to the end and cannot lose their salvation. It doesn't mean that a person who is truly saved will never lose faith or backslide at any time. But that they will ultimately persevere in faith (inspite of failures) such as not to lose their salvation.
The doctrine of perseverance is rooted in God's unconditional election and predestination. That is, since God is the One who chose and predestined the elect to salvation, therefore the elect will be saved. They might turn away from faith and give appearance of losing their salvation, but if they really are elect they will repent and ultimately return to faith, because God is the One ensuring their salvation.

This interesting tidbit comes from this website:

http://www.theopedia.com/perseverance-of-the-saints

I had always thought of perserverence as being something that the saints did, with God's help...not something God did for them.




from Webster's Dictionary











perseverance


















noun per·se·ver·ance \ˌpər-sə-ˈvir-ən(t)s\

: the quality that allows someone to continue trying to do something even though it is difficult


Full Definition of PERSEVERANCE

: continued effort to do or achieve something despite difficulties, failure, or opposition : the action or condition or an instance of persevering : steadfastness

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perseverance

 

[Barrd]

Did he surprise God when he said them?

Do you mean did God know he would say them?
Or do you mean, did God pre-program those words into him, for them to come out of his mouth at the pre-set moment?

Yes, God could have made us with all of the required responses hard-wired into our brains before we ever took the first breath.
But then, we wouldn't truly love Him, would we?
I can program this computer to tell me how wonderful I am, too.
But it doesn't really think I'm beautiful, or smart, or generous, or kind, or any one of a thousand sweet words I could program it to praise me with.

I honestly do not think God would want a bunch of robots spitting out pre-programmed praises at Him.

Do you?

 

[justaname]

In other words, you don't have an answer.

But that's okay....I didn't expect you would have.



Why do you persist in calling it "preservation of the saints"? The term is "perserverence of the saints".

Perseverance of the saints is the Calvinist doctrine that those who are truly saved will persevere to the end and cannot lose their salvation. It doesn't mean that a person who is truly saved will never lose faith or backslide at any time. But that they will ultimately persevere in faith (inspite of failures) such as not to lose their salvation.
The doctrine of perseverance is rooted in God's unconditional election and predestination. That is, since God is the One who chose and predestined the elect to salvation, therefore the elect will be saved. They might turn away from faith and give appearance of losing their salvation, but if they really are elect they will repent and ultimately return to faith, because God is the One ensuring their salvation.

This interesting tidbit comes from this website:

http://www.theopedia.com/perseverance-of-the-saints

I had always thought of perserverence as being something that the saints did, with God's help...not something God did for them.




from Webster's Dictionary











perseverance


















noun per·se·ver·ance \ˌpər-sə-ˈvir-ən(t)s\

: the quality that allows someone to continue trying to do something even though it is difficult


Full Definition of PERSEVERANCE

: continued effort to do or achieve something despite difficulties, failure, or opposition : the action or condition or an instance of persevering : steadfastness

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perseverance

It is not that I don't have an answer it is you have committed a red herring...

Engage in the scripture at hand. Do not shift to another passage of scripture. The passage you are referring to is in response to the Jews grumbling about Jesus calling Himself the bread from heaven.

Engage the scripture I posted.

Will Jesus let some the Father sent Him walk away?

 

[justaname]

Do you mean did God know he would say them?
Or do you mean, did God pre-program those words into him, for them to come out of his mouth at the pre-set moment?

Yes, God could have made us with all of the required responses hard-wired into our brains before we ever took the first breath.
But then, we wouldn't truly love Him, would we?
I can program this computer to tell me how wonderful I am, too.
But it doesn't really think I'm beautiful, or smart, or generous, or kind, or any one of a thousand sweet words I could program it to praise me with.

I honestly do not think God would want a bunch of robots spitting out pre-programmed praises at Him.

Do you?

This is a straw man. You speak of the preprogramming...not me.

You have the faulty understanding here...

 

[justaname]

• The Preservation of the Saints (PDF), by Vincent Cheung

The point being preservation and perseverance are interchangeable. Without question the doctrine attributes God as the acting force in perseverance.

 

[ATP]

Then why don't they say so plainly?

Believing only comes once Barrd. What does Jesus mean when he says "through me"...

John 10:9 NIV I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

John 14:6 NIV Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matt 7:13-14 NIV - These passages refer to salvation in Christ. Jesus is describing two gates, the gate to death Job 38:17 NIV, Psalm 107:18 NIV, Isa 38:10 NIV, Matt 16:18 NIV.......and the gate to heaven and eternal life Matt 7:14 NIV, Matt 22:14 NIV, Luke 13:22-30 NIV, John 10:9 NIV, John 14:6 NIV, Acts 14:27 NIV.

Also, the word "destruction" refers to the spirit of the antichrist...2 Thess 2:3 NIV Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

And the word "perish" refers to nonbelievers...John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Barrd]

It is not that I don't have an answer it is you have committed a red herring...

Engage in the scripture at hand. Do not shift to another passage of scripture. The passage you are referring to is in response to the Jews grumbling about Jesus calling Himself the bread from heaven.

Engage the scripture I posted.

Will Jesus let some the Father sent Him walk away?

This is the scripture you posted:

John 6
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Do you see a verse number there? I don't.
So, I went to my E-Sword...which is what I usually do, anyway.

Your verses here are directly related to the verses I posted.
Your accusation is not intellectually honest, Justaname.

Did you read the entire chapter?

The were grumbling about more than just Jesus calling Himself "bread from heaven"...

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Barrd]

This is a straw man. You speak of the preprogramming...not me.

You have the faulty understanding here...

Okay, then what do you call it?
Was the thief speaking his own words from his own heart?
Or was he "predestined" to speak those particular words when the time came?

 

[Barrd]

• The Preservation of the Saints (PDF), by Vincent Cheung

The point being preservation and perseverance are interchangeable. Without question the doctrine attributes God as the acting force in perseverance.

Who is this Vincent Cheung, whenever he's at home?

Jesus, I know, and Peter I know. Paul, and James and Jude...all of these I know.

Who the heck is Vincent Cheung? I don't believe the Bible mentions him....