The Doctrine of OSAS

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Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
The fact is that the Bible bristles with exhortations to obey, and dire warnings of what will happen to those who do not.
There are many, many warnings that we can lose our salvation.
There really isn't much point in trying to say that these people didn't have "real" faith...without being able to see men's hearts, no one is qualified to judge that.
It's no good to say that God wasn't really saving them, unless God has called you to sit on a committee to decide who is and who is not to be saved.

Why not just accept what the Bible says? Why try to force plain text to mean something it just does not mean?
 

StanJ

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justaname said:
Saul of Tarsus was on his way to capture and possibly kill Christians. Jesus struck him with blindness and changed his life completely....

OT examples are completely valid when discussing how God interferes in the will and affairs of men.

If God does not override man's will then Jesus' intercession is powerless. Praying for someone to come to salvation is pointless. God would not be sovereign, man would be.

The logical conclusion to that is deism.
Yes, that is right, but you assume Paul was FAR from the truth when indeed he was right on top of it. He recognized when Jesus spoke to him, as it being God. Who did God call in the OT to minister to the Gentiles by blinding them?

They are a good example of how God dealt with HIS people in the OT under the OC, but it is NOT how He deals with ALL men under the NC.

What intercession are you referring to? Intercession means to pray on someone's behalf, so how Jesus powerless? The two DON'T follow, despite you insistence. God IS sovereign and He has a way to work, which has always been, from the creation of Adam & Eve, to command and expect obedience. He never once forced someone to do what was against their will to do. You look at God from a human perspective and flawed reasoning, rather than based on what His written Word teaches.

No, that is YOUR confusion.
 

StanJ

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justaname said:
These are questions that remain unanswered by you prior to any questions you raised...btw I don't even know of questions I did not answer from you.

Please state them clearly...
Already have....VERY clearly, and you resist every time, just like you're doing here and now. I completely understand your reticence, I just won't play that game.
 

justaname

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StanJ said:
Yes, that is right, but you assume Paul was FAR from the truth when indeed he was right on top of it. He recognized when Jesus spoke to him, as it being God. Who did God call in the OT to minister to the Gentiles by blinding them?

They are a good example of how God dealt with HIS people in the OT under the OC, but it is NOT how He deals with ALL men under the NC.

What intercession are you referring to? Intercession means to pray on someone's behalf, so how Jesus powerless? The two DON'T follow, despite you insistence. God IS sovereign and He has a way to work, which has always been, from the creation of Adam & Eve, to command and expect obedience. He never once forced someone to do what was against their will to do. You look at God from a human perspective and flawed reasoning, rather than based on what His written Word teaches.

No, that is YOUR confusion.
Saul was far from the truth he persecuted Christians.

Here you conceded God does act over the will of men, even if only certain men that we know of through Scripture. You then make the ASSUMPTION he does not do this with all men. This is your eisegesis at work again...

Here is another biblical example...Nebuchadnezzar when he was humbled and was forced to eat grass like the beasts of the field.
 

justaname

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StanJ said:
Already have....VERY clearly, and you resist every time, just like you're doing here and now. I completely understand your reticence, I just won't play that game.
You have done nothing to support your position or discount mine. You are playing games here...

I ask you pointed questions and you discontinue the conversation. I ask for clarity and you refuse to give it. Get a grip...
 

StanJ

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justaname said:
Saul was far from the truth he persecuted Christians.

Here you conceded God does act over the will of men, even if only certain men that we know of through Scripture. You then make the ASSUMPTION he does not do this with all men. This is your eisegesis at work again...

Here is another biblical example...Nebuchadnezzar when he was humbled and was forced to eat grass like the beasts of the field.
Not quite. He was close, just not there yet. It's the very reason Jesus called him to be the apostle to the Gentiles. He wasn't a rookie and he wasn't MADE to believe, he chose to. I suggest you read Acts 26 to get Paul's mindset when he was saved and called.

Not at all...you're just falsely asserting it as your tend to do. Again, read Acts 26 to get Paul's mindset.

I suggest you re-read Dan 4 to see what actually happened. It was prophetic, not ordained. He became insane and then God healed him. ALL because of his thought that he was God like.
It's best to use examples that actually work and illustrate the point you are trying to make.
 

StanJ

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justaname said:
You have done nothing to support your position or discount mine. You are playing games here...

I ask you pointed questions and you discontinue the conversation. I ask for clarity and you refuse to give it. Get a grip...
and as usual you use the same indictments back on me, showing you have NOTHING.
 

StanJ

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The Barrd said:
The fact is that the Bible bristles with exhortations to obey, and dire warnings of what will happen to those who do not.
There are many, many warnings that we can lose our salvation.
There really isn't much point in trying to say that these people didn't have "real" faith...without being able to see men's hearts, no one is qualified to judge that.
It's no good to say that God wasn't really saving them, unless God has called you to sit on a committee to decide who is and who is not to be saved.

Why not just accept what the Bible says? Why try to force plain text to mean something it just does not mean?

It's called inculcation. :(
 

justaname

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StanJ said:
Not quite. He was close, just not there yet. It's the very reason Jesus called him to be the apostle to the Gentiles. He wasn't a rookie and he wasn't MADE to believe, he chose to. I suggest you read Acts 26 to get Paul's mindset when he was saved and called.

Not at all...you're just falsely asserting it as your tend to do. Again, read Acts 26 to get Paul's mindset.

I suggest you re-read Dan 4 to see what actually happened. It was prophetic, not ordained. He became insane and then God healed him. ALL because of his thought that he was God like.
It's best to use examples that actually work and illustrate the point you are trying to make.
Stan,

I know the conversion story all to well. Saul was on his way to persecute Christians. He was confronted by Jesus, whom he did not recognize.

And I said, 'Who are you, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. - Acts 26:15

Then Jesus says He appointed Saul a slave and witness.

But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, - Acts 26:16

This speaks to Jesus' sovereign election. To be assured the word translated servant is actually Greek for slave. Speaking to Ananians Jesus says this about Paul,

But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. - Acts 9:15

Saul was struck blind and was instructed to enter the city.


Here is the point you are missing. Paul's will was to persecute Christians. Jesus did not leave him to do his will but appeared to him, struck him with blindness, and appointed him a slave. Jesus selected Paul.

As to the Nebuchadnezzar example. It was a decree from God over the will of Nebuchadnezzar who desired to remain prideful.

I will pray for you Stan. May God bless you with revelation to understand His sovereign actions over the will of men. In Jesus' Name. Amen
 

FHII

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Paul had no free will during this episode (speaking of act 9 and his explanation in ch 26). Yes, he was obedient and probably eager and willing to get on the right path. Still, Jesus made things so difficult for him that there was only one choice.

He's kind of like Mary. She was nevergiven a choice either. SHe took it gladly, but that doesn't mean she had a choice.

Paul and Mary aren't like Jonah. He THOUGHT he had a choice. He tried to run, but alas...

The case of Nebuchadnezzar is off the beaten path, but it fits as well. God wasn't about to let Lucifer AKA Nebuchadnezzar take the credit!
 

justaname

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FHII said:
Paul had no free will during this episode (speaking of act 9 and his explanation in ch 26). Yes, he was obedient and probably eager and willing to get on the right path. Still, Jesus made things so difficult for him that there was only one choice.
He's kind of like Mary. She was nevergiven a choice either. SHe took it gladly, but that doesn't mean she had a choice.
Paul and Mary aren't like Jonah. He THOUGHT he had a choice. He tried to run, but alas...
The case of Nebuchadnezzar is off the beaten path, but it fits as well. God wasn't about to let Lucifer AKA Nebuchadnezzar take the credit!
I would say we do make choices based on our greatest desires. God is able to manipulate our desires to suit His purpose. He does this through putting us in situations where we freely chose His desired outcome.

Paul is a great example. Paul did chose to obey after the fear of God was instilled in him by God. Blinded and broken as a man, Paul placed his tail between his legs and was led away a slave of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jonah was placed in a great fish. That would change my mind pretty quickly.

Pharoah's heart was hardened for him by God. Pharoah's will was supernaturally suspended. In this case you could say he was clay in God's hands.

People want to believe there is some line that God can not cross, that being their will. There will be a time when thier rebellious hearts will be humbled and they will know there is only one Sovereign. Only one can do as He wills with no one to answer to. All His ways are good and perfect. If only people understood it truly is their hearts desire to submit fully to Him yet they have been blinded by the god of this world.
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
Okay, so let me get this straight.
God, in His omniscient wisdom, knows who will leave his/her faith, so He never actually saves them in the first place. Therefore they never truly left their faith, even though the Bible says that they did, because they never truly had real faith.
But He doesn't know ahead of time that Mary will say "Behold the handmaiden of the Lord" and He doesn't know whether or not Paul will consent to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, so He just forces them.

Okay, got it...
 

StanJ

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justaname said:
I know the conversion story all to well. Saul was on his way to persecute Christians. He was confronted by Jesus, whom he did not recognize.

As to the Nebuchadnezzar example. It was a decree from God over the will of Nebuchadnezzar who desired to remain prideful.
Apparently not, as Jesus was NOT there. When was the last time you actually read the story?
Acts 9:3-4;
As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

Again it was a decree, and if you were to actually read it you would see what I mean. Decrees are just announcement, not judgment. God knew what was going to happen to Nebuchadnezzar and told him so, not just then, but in the dream He gave him a year earlier that Daniel interpreted for him.
Sadly, you see stuff from an eisegetical perspective, and NOT what it plainly says. That's a bad habit you've formed.
 

justaname

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The Barrd said:
Okay, so let me get this straight.
God, in His omniscient wisdom, knows who will leave his/her faith, so He never actually saves them in the first place. Therefore they never truly left their faith, even though the Bible says that they did, because they never truly had real faith.
But He doesn't know ahead of time that Mary will say "Behold the handmaiden of the Lord" and He doesn't know whether or not Paul will consent to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, so He just forces them.

Okay, got it...
No you don't have it. Paul speaks of those who believe in vain. What part of that do you not accept?

Yes people leave the faith all the time. That does not mean there were ever being saved though.

God knew exactly what Mary would say. Do you think God would have chosen a woman that would refuse Him?

God's action with Paul is clearly laid out in Scripture.
 

justaname

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StanJ said:
Apparently not, as Jesus was NOT there. When was the last time you actually read the story?
Acts 9:3-4;
As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

Again it was a decree, and if you were to actually read it you would see what I mean. Decrees are just announcement, not judgment. God knew what was going to happen to Nebuchadnezzar and told him so, not just then, but in the dream He gave him a year earlier that Daniel interpreted for him.
Sadly, you see stuff from an eisegetical perspective, and NOT what it plainly says. That's a bad habit you've formed.
No Stan my biblical study practices are sound.

Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. - 1 Corinthians 15:8

You need to explain it to Paul that Jesus wasn't there...

God not only knew what would happen to Nebuchadnezzar he enforced it and ordained it.

This is taken from my simple dictionary on my phone...

Decree

a formal and authoritative order, especially one having the force of law: a presidential decree.
Law. a judicial decision or order.
Theology. one of the eternal purposes of God, by which events are foreordained.

You have a strange habit of accusing me of what you are actually guilty of. As if somehow by wrongly accusing me you shift the blame from yourself to me. This has been going on through the majority of our discussion.

In the Love of Christ,
justaname
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
Act 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus

Hmmm...
Yes, a great light, and a voice...
Saul blinded...
But evidently, Stan is quite right...Jesus does not seem to appear, here.
 

lforrest

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If you want to split hairs in this way you could say no one ever saw anything. They only saw the light that reflected or emenated from something and into their eyes. Your both being intentionally difficult, and I don't see what this tangent has to do with OSAS.
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
lforrest said:
If you want to split hairs in this way you could say no one ever saw anything. They only saw the light that reflected or emenated from something and into their eyes. Your both being intentionally difficult, and I don't see what this tangent has to do with OSAS.
Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.


Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them


1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.


1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron


1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.


Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Now, if OSAS were true, why are there so many warnings and exhortations?
And these aren't all of them, there are plenty more.
Why would Jesus spend three years teaching His apostles to keep the law, and then send someone to preach an entirely different gospel?

The answers are pretty obvious.
Those warnings are there, because it is possible to fall away and lose one's salvation.
And Paul is not preaching a different gospel....he is preaching obedience.

OSAS is a false doctrine.
 

justaname

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lforrest said:
If you want to split hairs in this way you could say no one ever saw anything. They only saw the light that reflected or emenated from something and into their eyes. Your both being intentionally difficult, and I don't see what this tangent has to do with OSAS.
It is actually a tactic called a red herring. It is an attempt to distract the conversation away from the portion they have no answer to. They pick an irrelevant portion of the post and disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

The other tactic I have seen is flooding the thread with irrelevant posts like the one above. Instead of addressing the issues or arguments, they ignore these and litter the thread, especially if something they have no answer to is posted. I think the idea is to push back the relevant post so far behind their posts people will not read through to find the relevant material. The relevant post gets lost in the crowd so to speak.
 

justaname

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Back to the topic...

For those who disagree with the perseverance of the saints doctrine they must disprove it...not just post scriptures they believe contradict God's eternal promises...

Point #1
God has chosen some from before the foundations of the world. Thier names are in the Lamb's book of Life.

Point #2
Jesus states all the Father has given to Him He will raise at the last day. He will not lose any.

Point #3
Believers are permanently sealed with the Holy Spirit until redemption.

Point #4
God has predestined those He foreknew to be conformed into th image of Christ. These also are glorified.


If you need Scripture references I can post them...

Each of these points give strong evidence supporting the doctrine. All of these together solidify the concept. This is not exhaustive of the points, yet is a strong example of a good portion of them.