The Doctrine of OSAS

[StanJ]

Thank you for your concern. Please pray about it.
Paul says more than I heard a voice...

Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. - 1 Corinthians 15:8

Now this is an interesting verse, so we have to wonder how Paul knew this if he only says this here and he was blinded when Jesus did speak to him? There is no testimony of any of the men that rode with Paul that says they saw Jesus or even a human like man, yet it does state in Acts 9:7-8;
The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

Now if in 1 Cor 15:8, Paul is relating to what he wrote in Gal 1:11-17, that is possible, given Paul said he wasn't sure if it was in the sprit or in the flesh, but as it relates to his conversion in Acts 9 he never SAW Jesus and neither did anyone else.

 

[justaname]

Now this is an interesting verse, so we have to wonder how Paul knew this if he only says this here and he was blinded when Jesus did speak to him? There is no testimony of any of the men that rode with Paul that says they saw Jesus or even a human like man, yet it does state in Acts 9:7-8;
The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

Now if in 1 Cor 15:8, Paul is relating to what he wrote in Gal 1:11-17, that is possible, given Paul said he wasn't sure if it was in the sprit or in the flesh, but as it relates to his conversion in Acts 9 he never SAW Jesus and neither did anyone else.

Neither Acts 9 nor Galatians 1 need to relate to the 1 Corinthians verse. Paul states Jesus appeared to him. God is omnipresent. You can speculate on the rest...this is your eisegesis at work...

I am discussing this no longer, the subject is perseverance of the saints.

Shalom

 

[StanJ]

Neither Acts 9 nor Galatians 1 need to relate to the 1 Corinthians verse. Paul states Jesus appeared to him. God is omnipresent. You can speculate on the rest...this is your eisegesis at work...

I am discussing this no longer, the subject is perseverance of the saints.

Shalom

So you understand hermeneutics but only use them when it suits your dogma?
Of course it makes a difference when Paul wrote the words in 1 Cor 15:8 compared to when he had his experience of Gal 1:11-17 and 2 Cor 12:2. Labeling it eisegesis, when it is not, just shows how disingenuous you are when it comes to debating this and many other issues that go against your dogma. Shall I show you the time line for these scriptures, or will you look it up yourself to confirm or refute what I posted?

Sadly you do this all the time. You bring up rabbit trails and then shut them down when you are refuted. If you weren't a mod I would probably have put you on ignore by now.

BTW, what's with the Shalom suddenly? Are you Jewish?

 

[Wormwood]

I'm late to the party here, but reading back, I am not sure what the big deal is about whether or not Paul visibly saw Jesus or not (clearly the Apostle John did).

As for OSAS, IMO, God calls all people but only those who respond in faith are the ones who hear the call. They are encouraged to confirm that calling by remaining in the faith.

 

[Jun2u]

I'm late to the party here, but reading back, I am not sure what the big deal is about whether or not Paul visibly saw Jesus or not (clearly the Apostle John did).

As for OSAS, IMO, God calls all people but only those who respond in faith are the ones who hear the call. They are encouraged to confirm that calling by remaining in the faith.

Sad how many people claim they are Christians yet have no inkling at all of what the Gospel truly teach.

I agree it is not important whether Paul saw Jesus visibly or not, but I disagree with the second paragraph.

True the call is to the world but God comes into a world of “dry bones” (spiritually dead people) (Ezekiel Chapter 37).

Dead people cannot respond to anything because they have no life in them.

By saying that spiritually dead people can respond to the call negates John 6:44 where it reads:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And, Jesus said in the Book of John, “Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

If God looked at the corridor of life (if there is such a thing), He will find ALL people are as dirty rags!

There are none righteous no not one, there is none that seeketh after God.

To God Be The Glory

 

[ATP]

As for OSAS, IMO, God calls all people but only those who respond in faith are the ones who hear the call. They are encouraged to confirm that calling by remaining in the faith.

It's impossible to not remain in the faith if we are only justified once.

 

[lforrest]

Sad how many people claim they are Christians yet have no inkling at all of what the Gospel truly teach.

I agree it is not important whether Paul saw Jesus visibly or not, but I disagree with the second paragraph.

True the call is to the world but God comes into a world of “dry bones” (spiritually dead people) (Ezekiel Chapter 37).

Dead people cannot respond to anything because they have no life in them.

By saying that spiritually dead people can respond to the call negates John 6:44 where it reads:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And, Jesus said in the Book of John, “Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

If God looked at the corridor of life (if there is such a thing), He will find ALL people are as dirty rags!

There are none righteous no not one, there is none that seeketh after God.

To God Be The Glory

Your concept of the Gospel is Impossible. The spiritually dead are made alive through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only those who believe will receive it. Therefore those who are called must be those who are spiritually dead. If they were already alive they wouldn't need to be called.

 

[StanJ]

Sad how many people claim they are Christians yet have no inkling at all of what the Gospel truly teach.

I agree it is not important whether Paul saw Jesus visibly or not, but I disagree with the second paragraph.

True the call is to the world but God comes into a world of “dry bones” (spiritually dead people) (Ezekiel Chapter 37).

Dead people cannot respond to anything because they have no life in them.

By saying that spiritually dead people can respond to the call negates John 6:44 where it reads:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And, Jesus said in the Book of John, “Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

If God looked at the corridor of life (if there is such a thing), He will find ALL people are as dirty rags!

There are none righteous no not one, there is none that seeketh after God.

To God Be The Glory

Nobody is every 'spiritually dead', unless they are also physically dead, and only then they still exist spiritually but have NO chance for renewal.
John 6:44 doesn't indicate anything but what it says. We are drawn to Jesus by God, and at one point we are faced with an option...choose Jesus as acknowledge our sinful nature, or reject Him. God tells us that He will not always strive with man, Gen 6:3 (NIV), but He also tells us that He is NOT willing than ANY should perish. 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV)

In John 15, Jesus is addressing His apostles, not everyone, and as I'm sure you know, He DID choose them all personally, even Judas.

Their is no "corridor of life", this is RT vernacular not shown ANYWHERE in scripture.

 

[Barrd]

The scriptures I quoted are there, just as I quoted them.

There is no nonsense about whether or not the people spoken of had "real" faith...the word for "faith" is pretty much used throughout the NT.
If God had meant that these folks fell away because they did not have "real" faith, He would have said so. But He didn't.

I don't see how it could be any plainer. We are warned, over and over again.

Why do some folks choose to neglect these warnings? It's no use trying to make the words mean something different, or to try to claim that they don't apply to Christians. The words mean just what they say.


1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

There is a reason this verse is there.


Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


Paul knew that, after he died, there would be 'grievous wolves' among the sheep, who would 'not spare the flock'.
And he knew that men would arise from among them, who would 'speak perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.'

These verses mean just what they say. There is nothing in them to suggest that these men were not disciples themselves, or that their faith wasn't 'real'. To suggest such is adding to the scripture what isn't there.

 

[justaname]

The scriptures I quoted are there, just as I quoted them.

There is no nonsense about whether or not the people spoken of had "real" faith...the word for "faith" is pretty much used throughout the NT.
If God had meant that these folks fell away because they did not have "real" faith, He would have said so. But He didn't.

I don't see how it could be any plainer. We are warned, over and over again.

Why do some folks choose to neglect these warnings? It's no use trying to make the words mean something different, or to try to claim that they don't apply to Christians. The words mean just what they say.


1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

There is a reason this verse is there.


Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


Paul knew that, after he died, there would be 'grievous wolves' among the sheep, who would 'not spare the flock'.
And he knew that men would arise from among them, who would 'speak perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.'

These verses mean just what they say. There is nothing in them to suggest that these men were not disciples themselves, or that their faith wasn't 'real'. To suggest such is adding to the scripture what isn't there.

1 Corinthians 15:2

By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

I would say this is very clear. Paul explains why some are not saved.
The NLT states it this way...

It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you--unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place.

 

[StanJ]

1 Corinthians 15:2

By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

I would say this is very clear. Paul explains why some are not saved.
The NLT states it this way...

It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you--unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place.

So now you admit that one has to work at their salvation by holding onto it? How is that OSAS?

 

[Jun2u]

Your concept of the Gospel is Impossible. The spiritually dead are made alive through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only those who believe will receive it. Therefore those who are called must be those who are spiritually dead. If they were already alive they wouldn't need to be called.

The wages of sin is death.

As in Adam ALL die. Each and every person of the human race were in the loins of Adam. When he sinned, not only did he die physically but also spiritually. In this sense, we inherited the sin of Adam thus each and every person that is to be born became subject to physical as well as spiritual death.

We became enemies of God and lost all power to seek Him, but through His loving kindness, He elected some to salvation.

You are correct that the spiritually dead are those whom God made alive through baptism by the Holy Spirit.

The word “baptism” in the Bible always mean “to wash”. God calls it the “washing of regeneration” in Titus 3:5,

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Nobody is every 'spiritually dead', unless they are also physically dead, and only then they still exist spiritually but have NO chance for renewal.
John 6:44 doesn't indicate anything but what it says. We are drawn to Jesus by God, and at one point we are faced with an option...choose Jesus as acknowledge our sinful nature, or reject Him. God tells us that He will not always strive with man, Gen 6:3 (NIV), but He also tells us that He is NOT willing than ANY should perish. 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV)

In John 15, Jesus is addressing His apostles, not everyone, and as I'm sure you know, He DID choose them all personally, even Judas.

Their is no "corridor of life", this is RT vernacular not shown ANYWHERE in scripture.

In John 15, Jesus was not only addressing His apostles but to everyone in the world. The Bible was written for mankind. If the Bible was written to particular audiences only as you say, then pretty soon I will not have a Bible to read or to trust because I was never in Roman, in Corinth, or in Ephesus...etc. I've read about these types of idea from scholars but it will not wash with the Bible.

For someone who has a good command of the English language you display yourself to be someone who is unlearned in the things of God.

When I find the time I will show you how to use the art of hermeneutics the biblical way which I believe you lack in knowledge especialy the word foreknowledge.

I'm aware there is no "corridor of life" hence my statement, "if there is such a thing" meaning there is none.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Barrd]

1 Corinthians 15:2

By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

I would say this is very clear. Paul explains why some are not saved.
The NLT states it this way...

It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you--unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place.

So, there is an "if"...and an "otherwise".

15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

How did we miss this one when we were looking for verses that refute OSAS?
Thanks, Justaname! This one puts the false doctrine of OSAS to bed once and for all...

 

[Jun2u]

So, there is an "if"...and an "otherwise".

15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

How did we miss this one when we were looking for verses that refute OSAS?
Thanks, Justaname! This one puts the false doctrine of OSAS to bed once and for all...

When people are gathered together there will be those who are saved and unsaved alike. So it was true with the church of Corinth.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Christ as my substitute will endure for me till the end.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Barrd]

When people are gathered together there will be those who are saved and unsaved alike. So it was true with the church of Corinth.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Christ as my substitute will endure for me till the end.

To God Be The Glory

What does the verse actually say?
15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,
Here Paul is reminding these "brothers and sisters" of the gospel he had preached to them.

which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
Here, he asserts that they have "taken their stand" on this gospel.

2 By this gospel you are saved,
Here, he asserts that these "brothers and sisters" are "saved" "by this gospel".

if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
Ahhh, but here is the "if" and the "otherwise".

Were they saved by the gospel Paul had preached to them? Yes....IF they held firmly to it.

OTHERWISE they had believed in vain.
Had they believed? Yes...but IF they did not hold firmly to that belief, it would be in vain.

They would LOSE THEIR SALVATION.

So much for OSAS.

 

[StanJ]

In John 15, Jesus was not only addressing His apostles but to everyone in the world. The Bible was written for mankind. If the Bible was written to particular audiences only as you say, then pretty soon I will not have a Bible to read or to trust because I was never in Roman, in Corinth, or in Ephesus...etc. I've read about these types of idea from scholars but it will not wash with the Bible.

For someone who has a good command of the English language you display yourself to be someone who is unlearned in the things of God.

When I find the time I will show you how to use the art of hermeneutics the biblical way which I believe you lack in knowledge especialy the word foreknowledge.

I'm aware there is no "corridor of life" hence my statement, "if there is such a thing" meaning there is none.

To God Be The Glory

If you never learn to identify and read IN context, you will never get the message of the Bible.
Context decides whether something is applicable for all or only for the people it is directed at.
Joshua 24:15 was directed at the children of Israel, so we may find application in our lives as the Holy Spirit quickens it to our hearts, but it was NOT directed at every person to choose. That goes for ALL scripture.

As you continually say that to everyone who refutes you, then I guess I'm not to concerned about your opinion in regards to my knowledge.

Yes please, show me what you do not know....that would be quite the parlor trick!

 

[justaname]

What does the verse actually say?
15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,
Here Paul is reminding these "brothers and sisters" of the gospel he had preached to them.

which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
Here, he asserts that they have "taken their stand" on this gospel.

2 By this gospel you are saved,
Here, he asserts that these "brothers and sisters" are "saved" "by this gospel".

if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
Ahhh, but here is the "if" and the "otherwise".

Were they saved by the gospel Paul had preached to them? Yes....IF they held firmly to it.

OTHERWISE they had believed in vain.
Had they believed? Yes...but IF they did not hold firmly to that belief, it would be in vain.

They would LOSE THEIR SALVATION.

So much for OSAS.

Barrd,

You are so close...

If they hold to the faith they are saved: only those who continue in the faith are saved. This has been explicitly expressed by me all along as apportioned to the perseverance of the saints doctrine. Again here is the definition...

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.

If they do not hold to their faith they believed in vain. They never had salvation. God was never saving them. Paul makes this explicit with the word translated "otherwise" the NASB and KJV translate it "unless". You are not being saved if you believe in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:2
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

So many misunderstand this doctrine...

 

[justaname]

So now you admit that one has to work at their salvation by holding onto it? How is that OSAS?

Again I support the perseverance of the saints doctrine...

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.

Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)
If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God's giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished.

C.H. Spurgeon
For non-reformed theologies..."at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God -- and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place."

D.A. Carson
When we speak of “once saved, always saved,” we are not taking into account the full scope of salvation. We have been saved (justification), was are being saved (sanctified), and we will one day be saved (glorified). You cannot claim to have been “saved” (justified) unless you are being sanctified. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord.

Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)

Those who think they can lose their salvation are not trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation but partly trusting in their own righteousness. Such teaching would have you believe that the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient to make his people perfect forever (Heb 10:14) or save them to the uttermost (Heb 7:25) [i.e. that Jesus is not enough]. ... such that, in addition to what Christ did, they must join their own ability to persevere to the end in order to maintain their own just standing before God. The book of Hebrews and Galatians severely warns against this and all teaching that rejects the sufficiency of Christ alone (Heb 6 & 10; Gal 3:3). Such persons think Christ made the down payment on their salvation but that they have to keep up the monthly installments (so to speak). A total misapprehension of the meaning of paid in full."

 

[StanJ]

Again I support the perseverance of the saints doctrine...

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.

So you don't believe what Paul wrote in Rom 10:9-13 is true? In 1 Cor 15:2, Paul doesn't say those who are saved have this so-called perseverance, he says IF YOU HOLD FIRMLY. That is dependent on the individual, NOT on any type of security or guarantee.
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Seems very clear to me.

 

[Barrd]

Barrd,

You are so close...

If they hold to the faith they are saved: only those who continue in the faith are saved. This has been explicitly expressed by me all along as apportioned to the perseverance of the saints doctrine. Again here is the definition...

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.

If they do not hold to their faith they believed in vain. They never had salvation. God was never saving them. Paul makes this explicit with the word translated "otherwise" the NASB and KJV translate it "unless". You are not being saved if you believe in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:2
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

So many misunderstand this doctrine...

But you've turned the verse around backward!

15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
He had already preached this gospel to these people, whom he calls "brothers and siters", and they had already received this gospel, and taken their stand on this gospel. They were already saved.


2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
Now he tells them that they must hold firmly to the word that he had preached to them.
Otherwise, he tells them, they have believed in vain.


Had they believed the gospel he had preached to them?
They had received it, they had made their stand on it, and they had believed it. No matter how you try to twist it, they were saved.

The warning is that if they do not hold firmly to the word that was preached to them, they would lose that salvation.

Their belief would have been in vain. That last bit definitely finishes the debate. They had believed, i.e. they were saved. They were to hold on to the word that was preached to them, otherwise they had believed in vain.

This verse does not prove OSAS....my dear man, it refutes OSAS!