StanJ said:
Nope.
Not unusual that Paul felt this way...are you trying to make this a doctrinal issue? He also said he would rather be dead and with Jesus, but that didn't mean he wasn't going to stick it out to the end. This is Paul's style throughout his letters. He also said he thought young men should stay single. Are you going to advocate this as well? Please do me the favour of not taking verses like this OUT of context, as it only affirms your bible study practices are NOT sound.
I don't have to...Acts says it was a bright light and a voice. The Bible clearly teaches that ALL will see His return, so you should keep that in mind when making unfounded assertions.
Talk about going off on tangents....how is this getting back on track? A slanted English definition does not make it fit YOUR misapplied connotation. The Hebrew is 'ămar, and connotes; to say, to speak, to command, to tell, to relate.
I would be more than happy to debate you in a moderated settings where you can't do what you do here, but I doubt you would.
I gave you my conditions up front and although you agree, you defaulted almost immediately, so please don't accuse me of what you do.
This is absurd. Paul emphatically states Jesus appeared to him in a letter by his own hand inspired by the Holy Spirit yet you do not accept that. You would rather take Luke's second hand account that was not meant to graphically detail every event rather give a telling of what happened. Just because Luke does not explicitly state Jesus was there does not invalidate the possibility. Paul affirms Jesus was there.
Your description of "Paul's style" explains nothing. I would rather be with the Lord but I am not leaving until He takes me. Paul has reasons for young men staying single. Yet none of this relates to Paul seeing Jesus or the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints.
I am so glad all of this is recorded for people to read the entire conversation.
The Barrd said:
The scriptures that I posted, that you blew off calling them "irrelevant" are proof enough that OSAS is a false doctrine.
If it were not possible to fall away, the Bible would not contain these warnings. But those scriptures are there, just as I posted them, and in spite of efforts to brush them aside, they mean just what they say.
I realize by now that you are not about to budge. I totally cannot understand how anyone, in the face of these passages, can possibly continue to maintain that OSAS is anything more than man's foolishness.
Nor can I figure out how anyone could malign God's character to the point where they have Him creating people only to torture them, and then turn around and call Him a God of love.
I have read the exact same verses as you...and yet we have come to two very different conclusions.
Boy, am I glad that I've never been a scholar! Give me the pure, unadulterated, unsullied Word of God. That is enough for me!
The Luke 9:62 passage says nothing about losing salvation.
Acts 20:28-30 foretells of people who are not saved distorting the gospel and attempting to convince others of a false gospel.
I Timothy 1:18-20 speaks of a shipwrecked faith not loss of salvation. Shipwrecked faiths do not produce salvation.
Hebrews 3:12-13 speaks of non believers.
1 Timothy 4:1-2 tells of people in advance that spread and believe a false gospel.
1 Timothy 6:9-10 speaks of people who loved money rather than God.
Hebrews 6:4-6 has been discussed thoroughly.
1 Peter 5:8 does not speak of loss of salvation at all rather is a waring to beware the devil
2 Peter 2:20-22 speaks of non-salvific faith or as Paul puts it believing in vain
Again the soils...only the good soil is saved. Just because someone professes a faith does not mean they posses salvation. Some believe in vain...this is scriptural.
I am not saying people don't fall away and neither does the perseverance of the saints doctrine. This is your misunderstanding blinding you from the truth of what is being conveyed to you through my posts.
I am not budging because your bully tactics do not work against me. Your red herring and straw-man tactics prove your colors. You are not attempting to have an honest discussion as you have already made know because you don't care about anyone's opinion but your own and those who agree with you. You simply want to make unchallenged assertions.
What I meant about "irrelevant" in my post to Iforrest is those Scriptures are not relevant to the flow of the thread. It succeeded only in changing the subject and point I made to your subject of these Scriptures you posted...now answered.
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
All the Father gives to Jesus is not lost and is raised on the last day. Everyone who beholds the Son and believes will have eternal life. Jesus will raise them up Himself.
My God and Savior thank You for Your glorious promises. You are faithful and good. All the Father gives You is kept by You. Bind my wandering heart to You Oh Lord. In Your courts above I will speak only Your name. God I am unworthy for You to enter under my roof, but only say the word and I will be healed! To know the riches of Your glory and the power of your hand is to be known by You. To be known by You is to be destined to be conformed into Your image. God, my God, You called me and through your gift of faith I am justified. Not by anything I have done or can do, but rather because of Your atonement, resurrection, and gift of faith. Now God I hold fast to the faith you have given to what you have measured through the strength of Your Holy Spirit that seals me and press on to see the glory you have prepared for me. I am Your workmanship so all the glory, honor, and power is Yours. Use me as Your instrument for Your namesake and Your good pleasure to make known the depths of Your love, the terror of your power, and the assuredness of Your promises. In the name of Yeshua Ha Mashiach. Amen
