The Doctrine of OSAS

[KingJ]

You have got to be kidding. Not only does Jesus save you from hell, He also gives you eternal life! Give me a break.

If neither death nor life can separate us from God Rom 8:38-39 NIV, and the lake of fire is the second death Rev 20:14, then God must be a liar.

Unless you believe in universalism there is no saving anyone from the second death.

When Calvinists realize that Jesus DOES NOT help anyone escape Hades or Hell, the reality of Christianity hits home hard.

In the OT there were people in AB and people in Hades. Did Jesus save any in Hades? no. Those in AB were saved. Those in AB got themselves to AB. Those in Hades got themselves to Hades by loving the darkness. That is the verdict per John 3:19.

 

[KingJ]

I guess it depends what you think HELL is? He saves us from the WAGES of sin, and that is not just physical death, as ALL are appointed to die once. Heb 9:27

The wages of having sin is separation from God. The wages of loving sin is hell.

 

[StanJ]

The wages of having sin is separation from God. The wages of loving sin is hell.

In the context of wages, that is living a lifestyle of sin, not individual sin. John does indeed explain this in 1 John 2:1-2

 

[KingJ]

In the context of wages, that is living a lifestyle of sin, not individual sin. John does indeed explain this in 1 John 2:1-2

Yes. We have an advocate in Jesus. So if we hate sin we will use Him. Hate sin = love Jesus. Love sin = hate Jesus. Rom 12:9 & Rom 7:15.

I just want to stress here to Jun that having sin has never been the issue. It is all about our love or hatred for it.

 

[ATP]

Unless you believe in universalism there is no saving anyone from the second death.

When Calvinists realize that Jesus DOES NOT help anyone escape Hades or Hell, the reality of Christianity hits home hard.

In the OT there were people in AB and people in Hades. Did Jesus save any in Hades? no. Those in AB were saved. Those in AB got themselves to AB. Those in Hades got themselves to Hades by loving the darkness. That is the verdict per John 3:19.

If you are born again you are saved from hell KingJ. Once we believe we are sealed until redemption. "When you believed" past tense..

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[ATP]

I just want to stress here to Jun that having sin has never been the issue. It is all about our love or hatred for it.

and thank God our salvation isn't based on our "feelings" that day.lol

 

[Jun2u]

Nobody is elected to salvation. The elect are already saved.

2Thessalonians 2:13-14

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 15:16

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Ephesians 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Note that the above texts does not intimate at all that the elect/chosen to salvation are already saved.

I could be wrong, but show me in scriptures that those elected to salvation are already saved, and does not have to go through a process.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Wormwood]

If you look at the context of 2 Thess, and other passages that the election is based on their belief. "God elects the plan, not the man."

The John 15 passage has to do with Christ's choosing of the Apostles. This is not about choosing sinners for salvation. The texts in John about divine choice are often badly misunderstood. They are not about Calvinism or predetermining salvation. When Jesus comments about those who were given to him and him "not losing" them, it proves that the Father had not predetermined their salvation or responses. Rather, Jesus was charged with teaching and maturing those the Father wanted him to select as the Apostles. Jesus did this effectively which is why he states this accomplishment. If God had chosen them apart from their will, then this statement by Jesus is meaningless. How could Jesus "lose" one of them if they could not be lost?!

Ephesians 1:4 says, "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world..." Again, God chose the plan, the reward and the work of Christ before the foundation of the world. When we are "in him" we become a part of that chosen plan, people, and reward that God had predetermined. This has to do with the choosing of God's Savior and the plan of salvation that we become connected with by faith. This is not teaching God preselected an individual for salvation before they were born (and, consequently, the damnation of most people before the foundation of the world).

 

[ATP]

If you look at the context of 2 Thess, and other passages that the election is based on their belief. "God elects the plan, not the man."

Right, and we are only believing once. Once we believe we are sealed until redemption. "When you believed, you were marked" is past tense..

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The John 15 passage has to do with Christ's choosing of the Apostles. This is not about choosing sinners for salvation.

Jesus died for sinners bro. We all have a choice.

The texts in John about divine choice are often badly misunderstood. They are not about Calvinism or predetermining salvation. When Jesus comments about those who were given to him and him "not losing" them, it proves that the Father had not predetermined their salvation or responses. Rather, Jesus was charged with teaching and maturing those the Father wanted him to select as the Apostles. Jesus did this effectively which is why he states this accomplishment. If God had chosen them apart from their will, then this statement by Jesus is meaningless. How could Jesus "lose" one of them if they could not be lost?!

Right, believers in Christ will never be lost again. The term "lost" only applies to nonbelievers. Salvation only comes once brother..

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Ephesians 1:4 says, "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world..." Again, God chose the plan, the reward and the work of Christ before the foundation of the world. When we are "in him" we become a part of that chosen plan, people, and reward that God had predetermined. This has to do with the choosing of God's Savior and the plan of salvation that we become connected with by faith. This is not teaching God preselected an individual for salvation before they were born (and, consequently, the damnation of most people before the foundation of the world).

Right, it is not us keeping ourselves in Christ by anything we do, rather it is Christ keeping Himself in us by Grace. If works did not save you, then how can works keep you in Him. - ATP

 

[KingJ]

If you are born again you are saved from hell KingJ. Once we believe we are sealed until redemption. "When you believed" past tense..

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Really we must just believe like the devils do James 2:19.

We can only believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is God of the universe if it is revealed to us 1 Cor 12:3. It is only revealed to us if we are after God's heart / pass His judgment Jer 17:10 / drawing closer to Him James 4:8 / repent Psalm 51:17. We only after His heart / desire repentance if we actually do hate what is evil. That is genuine love Rom 12:9.

Feeling....? Lol.

 

[KingJ]

If you are born again you are saved from hell KingJ.

Actually not. You are saved from separation from God. Now the two are very different.

Separation = the lady that does not want to be with me is not with me.

Hell = The lady that does not want to be with me has got herself into prison.

 

[Born_Again]

I was always perplexed by the OSAS concept. To some, it just seems like a free ticket to do the whole "Its okay, I'll be forgiven." I personally feel that a truly saved person is convicted not to sin. True repentance says you wont do "it" again. I honestly am on the fence whether or not I believe in OSAS. I can say, from personal experience, that when I was saved, I was convicted of many things and that in turn led me to change who I was and not be that person again. I believe, upon salvation, we are convicted to sin no more but to live for Him.

Okay, so, now we are saved. But we can not be perfect nor will we be perfect until we join Him. So, how does the whole thing work if we cannot sin (in theory) but we cannot be perfect? Then this brings the question; can someone fall away if they are truly saved? The theory is that if you are truly saved you cant fall away. I personally have so many wonders in my life since I was saved. I could not deny Him as He has shown himself to me in my life on numerous occasions. Why would you turn your back on that?

Have we given our lives completely to Christ? Is He driving or are you keeping Him as a co-pilot? If we are led by the Spirit we are not prone to sin. His will would never guide you to sin. How often I think we forget that we are saved because we are loved. Love will not guide us to harm or to sin. We are called to love, not to hate. We are called to be free of our bonds and not live bound by earthly ways. So, I guess you could conclude that if you are truly saved, then you could not fall away.

Its all about love, folks. He loves you. If you love Him, then you wouldn't turn away.

I guess its important to live like tomorrow could be one day too late.

 

[ATP]

Really we must just believe like the devils do James 2:19.

Devils believe Jesus is God, but they do not believe in a savior. That is the difference.

It is only revealed to us if we are after God's heart / pass His judgment Jer 17:10 / drawing closer to Him James 4:8 / repent Psalm 51:17. We only after His heart / desire repentance if we actually do hate what is evil. That is genuine love Rom 12:9.

Right, and the perseverance of the saints is biblical.

Actually not. You are saved from separation from God. Now the two are very different.

Separation = the lady that does not want to be with me is not with me.

Hell = The lady that does not want to be with me has got herself into prison.

Once we believe we have eternal life..John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV

I was always perplexed by the OSAS concept. To some, it just seems like a free ticket to do the whole "Its okay, I'll be forgiven."

We who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in no way profess a dead faith, nor are we antinomians...yet when it comes to soteriology we do believe we are saved through the belief of the death of Jesus Christ for our sins and His resurrection. This is the entirety of the gospel for salvation.

What we believe about works is it is the natural progression and out working of being born again. These works do nothing to secure or maintain our salvation. These works are accredited to God as working in and through us.

We do not believe that sin will disqualify any born again believer for the free gift of salvation. All sin is deliberate, yet repentance is the natural working of God in us through the conviction He places on us. We believe as His children we are chastised but not condemned.

 

[FHII]

Born Again wrote:

"I was always perplexed by the OSAS concept. To some, it just seems like a free ticket to do the whole "Its okay, I'll be forgiven."

I understand there's a lot more to your post, but I have to comnent on this part at least. Keep in mind I believe in predestination, not necesarily OSAS.

I have been fighting this thinking for quite a while. This is more a question of whether grace works than it is of OSAS. Being predestinated or OSAS is not a ticket to do sin or do whatever. That's what grace addresses.

Being predestinated simply means God chose you and ordained you to a position. More than just mere foreknowledge.

It certainly doesn't mean that you have an easy life. The same God that forordains us to salvattion also gives us road blocks, hardships and even crossroads. He may even fore ordain you to hit rock bottom, so that he nay raise you up.

But the whole notion that folks like me think wr got a free pass is not true (can't speak for others, of course, on their beliefs). We are predestined to salvation, but also to love God and follow him. Forced? No. Its a nature that God gave us, and nourished.

 

[Born_Again]

Born Again wrote:

"I was always perplexed by the OSAS concept. To some, it just seems like a free ticket to do the whole "Its okay, I'll be forgiven."

I understand there's a lot more to your post, but I have to comnent on this part at least. Keep in mind I believe in predestination, not necesarily OSAS.

I have been fighting this thinking for quite a while. This is more a question of whether grace works than it is of OSAS. Being predestinated or OSAS is not a ticket to do sin or do whatever. That's what grace addresses.

Being predestinated simply means God chose you and ordained you to a position. More than just mere foreknowledge.

It certainly doesn't mean that you have an easy life. The same God that forordains us to salvattion also gives us road blocks, hardships and even crossroads. He may even fore ordain you to hit rock bottom, so that he nay raise you up.

But the whole notion that folks like me think wr got a free pass is not true (can't speak for others, of course, on their beliefs). We are predestined to salvation, but also to love God and follow him. Forced? No. Its a nature that God gave us, and nourished.

Okay. I can roll with that. I have met others, including pastors who feel otherwise. Its because of the two opinions I have been perplexed on the issue. Thanks, FHII!

 

[StanJ]

If you look at the context of 2 Thess, and other passages that the election is based on their belief. "God elects the plan, not the man."

The John 15 passage has to do with Christ's choosing of the Apostles. This is not about choosing sinners for salvation. The texts in John about divine choice are often badly misunderstood. They are not about Calvinism or predetermining salvation. When Jesus comments about those who were given to him and him "not losing" them, it proves that the Father had not predetermined their salvation or responses. Rather, Jesus was charged with teaching and maturing those the Father wanted him to select as the Apostles. Jesus did this effectively which is why he states this accomplishment. If God had chosen them apart from their will, then this statement by Jesus is meaningless. How could Jesus "lose" one of them if they could not be lost?!

Ephesians 1:4 says, "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world..." Again, God chose the plan, the reward and the work of Christ before the foundation of the world. When we are "in him" we become a part of that chosen plan, people, and reward that God had predetermined. This has to do with the choosing of God's Savior and the plan of salvation that we become connected with by faith. This is not teaching God preselected an individual for salvation before they were born (and, consequently, the damnation of most people before the foundation of the world).

Yes, what WW says. Can't be bothered repeating myself, and this is consistent with what Paul also teaches in Rom 8:28-30

 

[KingJ]

1. Devils believe Jesus is God, but they do not believe in a savior. That is the difference.


2. Right, and the perseverance of the saints is biblical.


3. Once we believe we have eternal life..John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV

1. That is not the difference. They do believe Jesus is our Saviour. You are not dealing with the elephant in the room. Belief from ourselves belongs on a comedy show.

2. I said nothing of perseverance there. Yes, it is biblical from our persepective. The devil will tell you / get you to brainwash yourself into believing that you are en route to heaven when your God give brain and Holy Spirit inspired conscience think otherwise.

3. You did not read my post or deal with the actual points made.

Nobody is saved from hell. Jesus is not to be thanked for helping anyone escape hell.

 

[ATP]

1. That is not the difference. They do believe Jesus is our Saviour. You are not dealing with the elephant on the room. Belief from ourselves belongs on a comedy show.

2. I said nothing of perseverance there. Yes, it is biblical from our persepective. The devil will tell you / get you to brainwash yourself into believing that you are en route to heaven when your God give brain and Holy Spirit inspired conscience think otherwise.

3. You did not read my post or deal with the actual points made.

Nobody is saved from hell. Jesus is not to be thanked for helping anyone escape hell.

1. Seriously? Demons believe Jesus is the Savior yes, but they do not believe He is their savior. Demons have not accepted Jesus as their savior. Demons are not born again John 3:3.

2. So if you believe in the perseverance of the saints why do you believe you can lose your salvation? We persevere because God never leaves us.

3. Jesus is the only person who can save you from hell and give you eternal life, and you're not thankful?? Wow. I thank the Lord every day in what He did on the cross for me..Psalm 107:1-2 NIV Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good; his love endures forever. 2Let the redeemed of the Lord tell their story—those he redeemed from the hand of the foe,

Many will confess with their mouth KingJ, but not believe in their heart. Rom 10:9-10.

 

[KingJ]

Have we given our lives completely to Christ? Is He driving or are you keeping Him as a co-pilot? If we are led by the Spirit we are not prone to sin. His will would never guide you to sin. How often I think we forget that we are saved because we are loved. Love will not guide us to harm or to sin. We are called to love, not to hate. We are called to be free of our bonds and not live bound by earthly ways. So, I guess you could conclude that if you are truly saved, then you could not fall away.

Good post BA. Just to be pedantic. If we are lead by the Holy Spirit we are not prone to mortal sins. Paul mentioned sinning all the time in Rom 7:15. He was not referring to killing Christians. Then Paul mentions many sins in 1 Cor 6:9-13. What we have to do with those though is grasp his build up to saying those lines. He is talking about proper judgment. He is painting the picture that he is referring to people sold out to those sins. A thief who will not be in heaven is one who can rob an old pensioner. Not just a lady who murders her rapist but rather someone who can murder freely. etc etc

 

[ATP]

Then Paul mentions many sins in 1 Cor 6:9-13.

And you're taking this passage out of context.

"And that is what some of you were" past tense..
"All of us also lived among them at one time" past tense..
"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning" future tense..

1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Eph 2:3 NIV All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

1 John 3:6 NIV No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.