The Doctrine of OSAS

[Barrd]

So Jesus tells you no man has seen God or has been to heaven and you believe that Paradise, which is full of men/women, is where God is in heaven? Yep, you sure know hermeneutics alright. :wacko:

No living man, Stan.
We know at least one man saw Him after His death. He promised the thief that he would be with Him.

 

[FHII]

You are correct, this is not how a child of God behaves!

I absolutely agree. Both these folks have been class acts in this conversation and elsewhere as far ad I remember.

 

[StanJ]

No living man, Stan.
We know at least one man saw Him after His death. He promised the thief that he would be with Him.

Jesus said NO man, period, and Jesus DID see the thief, in Paradise, not heaven.

 

[StanJ]

Baptism today includes the Holy Spirit. Every single person who is baptized receives the Holy Spirit, without exception.
I do not believe in a separate "baptism of the Holy Spirit".
But then, I do not believe in the "charismatic movement", either.
We agree on many things, my friend....and I am your friend, Stan....but I'm afraid this is one of those things we do not agree on.

Every person who is baptized BY the Holy Spirit does, not always those that are baptized in water do, although it has happened.
You need to read Acts 19:1-7
That's to bad, cuz it's right there in front of your nose.
No problem, I'm not offended about people NOT agreeing with me....their loss.

 

[StanJ]

With this conviction, I would like to apologize to Stanj, and to the moderators.

However, I feel ignored and left out on the discussions especially when my response is directed to a particular person.

At times my comments and statements may seem hostile maybe it's because I do not have a good command of the English language like everyone here, yet I know this is not an excuse.

Could you give me your comments on post #1867 above and please ignore language you deem inappropriate?

I'm want to assure you I do NOT ignore you, but as such I can only comment on so may posts. I also am not what one would term a person of flowery speech, and as such, I try to be succinct and direct in my responses. Sometimes my self gets in there, but there is NO malicious intent. Of course if I am frustrated or upset by a person, they will KNOW it.

I am a grade 10 dropout, but have always worked hard at my language skills. Being bilingual in French and English, I know the two cannot be interpreted word for word, or what is called "formal equivalence", and must be interpreted in what linguists call "dynamic or functional equivalence." It may help you to look up these terminologies.

 

[Barrd]

Every person who is baptized BY the Holy Spirit does, not always those that are baptized in water do, although it has happened.
You need to read Acts 19:1-7
That's to bad, cuz it's right there in front of your nose.
No problem, I'm not offended about people NOT agreeing with me....their loss.

First of all, I am proud of you for not being offended when people don't agree with you.
I feel exactly the same way, and I also think it is their loss...

Yes, Stan, it is right there, in front of my nose. I've seen it, up close. As I told you, I live among them.
And I am not impressed.
The only person I know who really did speak in a tongue was a Methodist....a straight Methodist, no charismatic movement involved.

Okay....Acts 19:1-7:

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve

The "two baptisms" mentioned here were the baptism of John the Baptist, who baptized for the remission of sins....and the baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus, which all Christians have had.
The Holy Ghost came on them when Paul laid hands on them.
That kinda supports the cessationist view.
There are no more Apostles to lay their hands on anyone any more...

 

[StanJ]

First of all, I am proud of you for not being offended when people don't agree with you.
I feel exactly the same way, and I also think it is their loss...

Yes, Stan, it is right there, in front of my nose. I've seen it, up close. As I told you, I live among them.
And I am not impressed.
The only person I know who really did speak in a tongue was a Methodist....a straight Methodist, no charismatic movement involved.

Okay....Acts 19:1-7:

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve

The "two baptisms" mentioned here were the baptism of John the Baptist, who baptized for the remission of sins....and the baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus, which all Christians have had.
The Holy Ghost came on them when Paul laid hands on them.
That kinda supports the cessationist view.
There are no more Apostles to lay their hands on anyone any more...

Again, A tongues is NOT what Jesus spoke of....Mark 6:17; And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues. καινός (kainos)new in species, character, or mode.
The Greek connotes a language NEVER before used or heard.

Yes, John spoke about water and Holy Spirit baptism, but the Baptism you refer to is water as Jesus commanded in Matt 28:19, as the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. The Holy Spirit Baptism is what originated in Acts 2:3-4, and Paul showed the difference between being baptized IN Jesus' name and being Baptised BY the Holy Spirit in Acts 19:1-7.
Laying on of hands is NOT a prerequisite as demonstrated in Acts 10:44-48, where you will note the Baptism happened spontaneously, and THEN water baptism happened afterwards.

 

[mjrhealth]

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Not sure waht the issue is but our baptism is now in teh Holy Spirit.

 

[Wormwood]

justaname,

I didn't really answer your comment about what has been "recieved." Specifically, you were referring to this verse:

Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

I do think this is referring to Paul's special revelation of the Gospel by the Spirit. This message came from God directly to Paul and not from the wisdom or spirit of man. God gave Paul and the other Apostles revelation about what has been given in Christ. Thus, they teach this revelation by Spiritual wisdom and not human wisdom. He uses this very language in many of his other letters.

“how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.” (Ephesians 3:3–5, ESV)

“For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:11–12, ESV)

So, not only is the wording in these other contexts strikingly similar, but the use of personal pronouns in the surrounding context make this very convincing to me that this passage is not about the special revelation given to every Christian that God does not give to non-believers, but that this has to do with the special revelation of the Gospel message to the Apostles and prophets...which they shared with the people of Corinth. Those who accepted this message needed to understand that these teachers were not like the teachers they were used to....teachers that sought to gather large crowds with flowery, wise rhetoric so they could be praised. No, this was a message from God and it is not a popularity context between messengers. Thus, dividing over who they like best (Paul, Apollos, etc) as the people would do over other Greek sophists was not only inappropriate, but contrary to everything the message of Christ entails.

 

[Jun2u]

I'm want to assure you I do NOT ignore you, but as such I can only comment on so may posts. I also am not what one would term a person of flowery speech, and as such, I try to be succinct and direct in my responses. Sometimes my self gets in there, but there is NO malicious intent. Of course if I am frustrated or upset by a person, they will KNOW it.

I am a grade 10 dropout, but have always worked hard at my language skills. Being bilingual in French and English, I know the two cannot be interpreted word for word, or what is called "formal equivalence", and must be interpreted in what linguists call "dynamic or functional equivalence." It may help you to look up these terminologies.

Thank you for your response. I too am bilingual but unlike you did nothing to hone my language skills. In my country there are 300 dialects and in order to communicate with each other we had to study our national dialect in school, and even then have difficulties communicating with each other because other words got mixed in, in everyday speaking as well as in writing. So I can relate.

Going back to our discussions where you stated “no man has seen God at any time” and I replied yes but only in His spirit essence that no one can see God. I knew I was correct in my assessment but the scripture text references have eluded me at that time until recently.

I know you've read or have known of this historical event in the OT about Jacob wrestling with a man at the River Jabbok Ge 32:22-32, and verse 30 reads:

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

We also read about how Moses' face did shine by just looking at the back side of God in Exodus 34

I like it when I am challenged because it gives me the opportunity to restudy and search out scriptures.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Barrd]

Again, A tongues is NOT what Jesus spoke of....Mark 6:17; And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues. καινός (kainos)new in species, character, or mode.
The Greek connotes a language NEVER before used or heard.

Yes, John spoke about water and Holy Spirit baptism, but the Baptism you refer to is water as Jesus commanded in Matt 28:19, as the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. The Holy Spirit Baptism is what originated in Acts 2:3-4, and Paul showed the difference between being baptized IN Jesus' name and being Baptised BY the Holy Spirit in Acts 19:1-7.
Laying on of hands is NOT a prerequisite as demonstrated in Acts 10:44-48, where you will note the Baptism happened spontaneously, and THEN water baptism happened afterwards.

Uh....Mark 6:17? Are you sure?

Mar 6:17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her.

How do you get that Acts 2:3-4 has anything to do with any baptism? This was on the Day of Pentecost. Do you know what the significance of the Day of Pentecost is? What were the Jews celebrating on this day?

http://chosenpeople.com/main/index.php/holidays-and-festivals/608-the-giving-of-the-law-the-giving-of-the-spirit
http://www.jewishroots.net/holidays/shavuot-pentecost/shavuot-pentecost-holiday-page.html
http://www.holylandmoments.org/what-is-shavuot-pentecost
http://www.jewfaq.org/holidayc.htm
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/biblestudyandtheology/jewishroots/feast%20of%20shavuot_weeks_pentecost_jews_for_jesus.aspx?mobile=false
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Spring_Holidays/Shavuot/shavuot.html

There are more, if you want them. I like what the last one says, that some consider the Day of Pentecost to be the day that Judaism was born. How very appropriate that it is also the birthday of Christianity.

But ultimately, the point is that this is not so much about being "baptized" in the Holy Spirit, as you think...but about the giving and receiving of the New Covenant. God had promised that, this time, He would not write His law on tablets of stone, but on tablets of flesh...He would write His law within our very hearts. And that is what the Holy Spirit is all about. It is the fulfillment of His promise.


I believe I have already agreed with you, not only that the Holy Spirit is still alive and well, and still working within His followers, but also that cessationism is a false teaching.
Our difference of opinion centers on just what is real and what is fake. Most of what we see in today's so-called "charismatic movement" is pure fraud.
And some of it is being caused by a spirit that is not Holy at all.
What is real is certainly not limited to the Pentecostal church. I've not only seen and heard real tongues, but I, myself, had my life given back to me by an angel sent from God in a very dramatic way.

Perhaps it is time for me to tell you my story....what the heck, I'm not doing anything else this morning.
It was a few years after my husband was killed. I had been busting my...uh...behind, taking any job I could find...cleaning, cooking, doing yard work, taking in laundry....anything that would bring in a few dollars. I had just spent a day cleaning up a house that was full of cat feces. The owners had been on vacation, and had trusted a neighbor to look after their two cats. The neighbor fed the cats...but did not see to their other needs. It had been a particularly nasty job, and I was ill and very tired.
I did not see the huge dog standing near my yard as I wearily climbed out of the owner's car...remember, I didn't drive back then. But my kids did...they had shut themselves into the house and were waiting for animal control to come get him. Before their horrified eyes, I was mauled by this big guy, and began bleeding out.
The ambulance got there, but they thought it was too late. They called me in as a DOA. My poor babies were taken into various people's homes with the idea that they were to be adopted out to strangers and the family forever split up. They were devastated.
But there was a young man in the ambulance....I remember him very well. He was young and handsome, with red hair and freckles...yes, freckles. And he refused to give up on me.
When we got to the hospital, he spoke with the nurses, and the doctor hurried in and gave me an immediate transfusion of whole blood. I was alive....but just. It took me several days to be fully aware of my surroundings, but I know my red headed paramedic stayed close by me during that time.
Then one day, the mists began to clear, and my red headed hero was gone. After awhile, he reappeared with a paper that had several telephone numbers written on it. He helped me to call the people who had my kids, and I got to talk to them. At least one of the smaller ones was convinced that I had made the call from heaven. But the folks who had my kids, all good people, agreed to bring them to see me as soon as the doctor would allow me visitors. I didn't have long to wait.
Of course, I wanted to thank my red headed hero for all that he had done for me, so as soon as I was steady on my feet I wandered out to the nurse's station to ask them for his name and telephone number so that I could tell him how much I appreciated all he had done for me. He had given me back my life.
But to my utter confusion and complete amazement, they told me that there was no such person as I described working with the ambulance service, nor had any such person come to visit me since I had been in Intensive Care, which was a locked ward, and no one could get in or out without being seen.
When I explained that he had been there and helped me call my kids, the clicked their tongues at me and told me that this was quite impossible, as the rooms in the ICU did not have telephones in them. And when I went back to my room, I found that they were quite right, there was no telephone there, nor could I find the paper with the phone numbers on them.
Even I would have wondered if I had been hallucinating...severe loss of blood can do that, or so I was told....except that my kids and the people who were caring for me remembered me calling them.

Now, I know that this is not exactly what you might consider a work of the Holy Spirit, but you have to admit...it was certainly a miracle.

 

[StanJ]

Uh....Mark 6:17? Are you sure?

Mar 6:17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her.

How do you get that Acts 2:3-4 has anything to do with any baptism? This was on the Day of Pentecost. Do you know what the significance of the Day of Pentecost is? What were the Jews celebrating on this day?

http://chosenpeople.com/main/index.php/holidays-and-festivals/608-the-giving-of-the-law-the-giving-of-the-spirit
http://www.jewishroots.net/holidays/shavuot-pentecost/shavuot-pentecost-holiday-page.html
http://www.holylandmoments.org/what-is-shavuot-pentecost
http://www.jewfaq.org/holidayc.htm
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/biblestudyandtheology/jewishroots/feast%20of%20shavuot_weeks_pentecost_jews_for_jesus.aspx?mobile=false
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Spring_Holidays/Shavuot/shavuot.html

There are more, if you want them. I like what the last one says, that some consider the Day of Pentecost to be the day that Judaism was born. How very appropriate that it is also the birthday of Christianity.

But ultimately, the point is that this is not so much about being "baptized" in the Holy Spirit, as you think...but about the giving and receiving of the New Covenant. God had promised that, this time, He would not write His law on tablets of stone, but on tablets of flesh...He would write His law within our very hearts. And that is what the Holy Spirit is all about. It is the fulfillment of His promise.


I believe I have already agreed with you, not only that the Holy Spirit is still alive and well, and still working within His followers, but also that cessationism is a false teaching.
Our difference of opinion centers on just what is real and what is fake. Most of what we see in today's so-called "charismatic movement" is pure fraud.
And some of it is being caused by a spirit that is not Holy at all.
What is real is certainly not limited to the Pentecostal church. I've not only seen and heard real tongues, but I, myself, had my life given back to me by an angel sent from God in a very dramatic way.

Perhaps it is time for me to tell you my story....what the heck, I'm not doing anything else this morning.
It was a few years after my husband was killed. I had been busting my...uh...behind, taking any job I could find...cleaning, cooking, doing yard work, taking in laundry....anything that would bring in a few dollars. I had just spent a day cleaning up a house that was full of cat feces. The owners had been on vacation, and had trusted a neighbor to look after their two cats. The neighbor fed the cats...but did not see to their other needs. It had been a particularly nasty job, and I was ill and very tired.
I did not see the huge dog standing near my yard as I wearily climbed out of the owner's car...remember, I didn't drive back then. But my kids did...they had shut themselves into the house and were waiting for animal control to come get him. Before their horrified eyes, I was mauled by this big guy, and began bleeding out.
The ambulance got there, but they thought it was too late. They called me in as a DOA. My poor babies were taken into various people's homes with the idea that they were to be adopted out to strangers and the family forever split up. They were devastated.
But there was a young man in the ambulance....I remember him very well. He was young and handsome, with red hair and freckles...yes, freckles. And he refused to give up on me.
When we got to the hospital, he spoke with the nurses, and the doctor hurried in and gave me an immediate transfusion of whole blood. I was alive....but just. It took me several days to be fully aware of my surroundings, but I know my red headed paramedic stayed close by me during that time.
Then one day, the mists began to clear, and my red headed hero was gone. After awhile, he reappeared with a paper that had several telephone numbers written on it. He helped me to call the people who had my kids, and I got to talk to them. At least one of the smaller ones was convinced that I had made the call from heaven. But the folks who had my kids, all good people, agreed to bring them to see me as soon as the doctor would allow me visitors. I didn't have long to wait.
Of course, I wanted to thank my red headed hero for all that he had done for me, so as soon as I was steady on my feet I wandered out to the nurse's station to ask them for his name and telephone number so that I could tell him how much I appreciated all he had done for me. He had given me back my life.
But to my utter confusion and complete amazement, they told me that there was no such person as I described working with the ambulance service, nor had any such person come to visit me since I had been in Intensive Care, which was a locked ward, and no one could get in or out without being seen.
When I explained that he had been there and helped me call my kids, the clicked their tongues at me and told me that this was quite impossible, as the rooms in the ICU did not have telephones in them. And when I went back to my room, I found that they were quite right, there was no telephone there, nor could I find the paper with the phone numbers on them.
Even I would have wondered if I had been hallucinating...severe loss of blood can do that, or so I was told....except that my kids and the people who were caring for me remembered me calling them.

Now, I know that this is not exactly what you might consider a work of the Holy Spirit, but you have to admit...it was certainly a miracle.

Sorry, Mark 16:17....sometimes my fingers don't press hard enough.

GTG, as my kids are taking me out for my birthday, so I'll address this at another time.

 

[ATP]

If we can lose our salvation, then why did John see his name written on the wall in the New Jerusalem? Rev 21:14 NIV

 

[Jun2u]

If we can lose our salvation, then why did John see his name written on the wall in the New Jerusalem? Rev 21:14 NIV

That's a true statement, ATP. And, how can a saved person lose his salvation if Christ lives in him?
That's an impossibility!

Ga 2:20 reads:

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

To God Be The Glory

 

[justaname]

justaname,

I didn't really answer your comment about what has been "recieved." Specifically, you were referring to this verse:


I do think this is referring to Paul's special revelation of the Gospel by the Spirit. This message came from God directly to Paul and not from the wisdom or spirit of man. God gave Paul and the other Apostles revelation about what has been given in Christ. Thus, they teach this revelation by Spiritual wisdom and not human wisdom. He uses this very language in many of his other letters.




So, not only is the wording in these other contexts strikingly similar, but the use of personal pronouns in the surrounding context make this very convincing to me that this passage is not about the special revelation given to every Christian that God does not give to non-believers, but that this has to do with the special revelation of the Gospel message to the Apostles and prophets...which they shared with the people of Corinth. Those who accepted this message needed to understand that these teachers were not like the teachers they were used to....teachers that sought to gather large crowds with flowery, wise rhetoric so they could be praised. No, this was a message from God and it is not a popularity context between messengers. Thus, dividing over who they like best (Paul, Apollos, etc) as the people would do over other Greek sophists was not only inappropriate, but contrary to everything the message of Christ entails.

Wormwood,

I am uncertain how you see this passage in this manner. Paul is speaking of the "receiving" of the Spirit of God. This is clear from the contrasting of the spirit of the world with the Spirit of God. Perhaps you are interpreting Gospel message for Spirit?

Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God

And to add a bit. The special revelation of the Gospel is given to all Christians. It simply was given to the Apostles first. The use of the pronouns does not affect the substance of the message. The fact remains the natural man does not receive the message. Man being in bondage to sin is in rebellion to God and the things of God; this includes the Gospel message.

Your argument "This message came from God directly to Paul and not from the wisdom or spirit of man." conveys my contention. The Spirit reveled the Gospel message to the Apostles. God directly affected the Apostles with His message. I simply say the same applies to all believers...and why wouldn't it? Man is in rebellion to God. Man continues to be in rebellion unless acted on by another force...God Himself.

John 6:65
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Look at the context from this passage. Many disciples left Jesus because of His difficult teachings. Jesus knew from the beginning those who did not believe. It is the same today. Only those granted by the Father will believe unto salvation and glorification. Some have superficial faith that is not salvific in nature. Some carry the label Christian from birth, yet have no root of salvation in them. I would further to argue neither of these have the Spirit either. These are not "saved", thereby salvation is not lost.

Easily one can see the argument from God's view. God knows the end of every individual. Only those who endure are being saved. To God there are those who are saved and those who are not without an in-between. So it is for us.

 

[Wormwood]

Justaname,

Thanks for replying...

“But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.” (1 Corinthians 2:9–12, ESV)

Here Paul is contrasting the thoughts and imagination of man with the revelation of God. Man cannot conceive of the things God has prepared, but he has revealed them through his Spirit. The Apostles received revelation from God's Spirit that they might understand the mystery of the Gospel (which is what Paul is talking about: “But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.” (1 Corinthians 2:7, ESV)).

Yes, all Christians receive the Spirit of God. But here, Paul is specifically talking about this "hidden wisdom" that has come by revelation through the Spirit. Everyday Christians do not receive the Gospel through personal revelation by the Spirit. No, we receive this "hidden wisdom" through preaching which is the passed on message of those who originally received this message by direct revelation. The problem with the Corinthians, was that they were acting more in line with the spirit of the world in their fighting about who was the preeminent teacher/Apostle.

Lets try this. I will insert, "all Christians" wherever Paul uses first personal pronouns, and then insert "we Apostles" in a second entry. Look at the context and judge for yourself which is more in line with what Paul is saying.

“Yet among the mature [all Christians] do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But [all Christians] impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to [all Christians] through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now [all Christians] have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that [all Christians] might understand the things freely given us by God. And [all Christians] impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But [all Christians] have the mind of Christ. But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For [all Christians] are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.”

“Yet among the mature [we Apostles] do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But [we Apostles] impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to [us Apostles] through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now [we Apostles] have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that [we Apostles] might understand the things freely given us by God. And [we Apostles] impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But [we Apostles] have the mind of Christ. But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For [we Apostles] are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.”

I am out of time, but I will try to respond to the John 6:65 later this evening. Have a blessed day!

 

[StanJ]

That's a true statement, ATP. And, how can a saved person lose his salvation if Christ lives in him?
That's an impossibility!

Ga 2:20 reads:

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

To God Be The Glory

Again, insisting on using the word "lose", does not help in identifying the issue. OSASers are stuck on this WORD because that is the ONLY way they can support OSAS. Notice though that ES is not mentioned in Once Saved Always Saved. The Bible teaches clearly that men can be saved and then WALK AWAY. The scriptures aren't worth noting because they are always denied by hard liners.
The only thing I have to ask is why, as believers, we are admonished to persevere, run the race, not do this or that, if we are so secure? Why is the word IF used so many times in telling us HOW to behave, IF we are secure to never fall?

 

[Jun2u]

Again, insisting on using the word "lose", does not help in identifying the issue. OSASers are stuck on this WORD because that is the ONLY way they can support OSAS. Notice though that ES is not mentioned in Once Saved Always Saved. The Bible teaches clearly that men can be saved and then WALK AWAY. The scriptures aren't worth noting because they are always denied by hard liners.
The only thing I have to ask is why, as believers, we are admonished to persevere, run the race, not do this or that, if we are so secure? Why is the word IF used so many times in telling us HOW to behave, IF we are secure to never fall?

It is NOT that OSASers insist on using the word “lose” in identifying the doctrine of OSAS, but because the Bible teaches that. For instance, we read in Jo 6:44 that no one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father/

The term, “I will raise him up at the last day” in John 6 cannot be accomplished unless that person's salvation is secured. In fact, that phrase was echoed four times in John 6 to bring home that point as well as in 2 Co 5:8. Note how Jesus speaks of those in verse 39:

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should LOSE nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:39 are God's words and are not mine.

The only thing I have to ask is why, as believers, we are admonished to persevere, run the race, not do this or that, if we are so secure? Why is the word IF used so many times in telling us HOW to behave, IF we are secure to never fall?

When we speak of believers, we are indicating those who have become saved. We are admonished to persevere, run the race, not to do this or that, it's because God is telling us that we still lusts after sin even after we have become saved., Ro 7:14-25:

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Jun2u]

The only thing I have to ask is why, as believers, we are admonished to persevere, run the race, not do this or that, if we are so secure?

Believers are they who have become saved. It seems you are trying to limit the salvation power of God. In fact, God says what He will do and say will be accomplished. Contrary to other beliefs, when God saves someone that person will eternally be saved and will be raised up on the last day.

Why is the word IF used so many times in telling us HOW to behave, IF we are secure to never fall?

Firstly, if we are a believer or a child of God, we will forever be saved because that is the promise of God.

Secondly, Jesus said He will never forsake or leave us, because without Him we can do nothing.

 

[StanJ]

It is NOT that OSASers insist on using the word “lose” in identifying the doctrine of OSAS, but because the Bible teaches that. For instance, we read in Jo 6:44 that no one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father/
The term, “I will raise him up at the last day” in John 6 cannot be accomplished unless that person's salvation is secured. In fact, that phrase was echoed four times in John 6 to bring home that point as well as in 2 Co 5:8. Note how Jesus speaks of those in verse 39:
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should LOSE nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:39 are God's words and are not mine.

When we speak of believers, we are indicating those who have become saved. We are admonished to persevere, run the race, not to do this or that, it's because God is telling us that we still lusts after sin even after we have become saved., Ro 7:14-25:

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

To God Be The Glory

Well they must, because most do so. John 6:44 is NOT the issue, but taking single verses OUT of context when the overall text conveys something different is the problem. John 6 has a few verses that use the term "last day", so it is important to exegete them all properly.
John 6 shows Jesus disciples AND Jews that were hostile to Him. In this context, Jesus was making it clear as to who God HAD given Him and who He had not in terms of true disciples. It was NOT a guarantee of security, unless you read that INTO the verses, which is called eisegesis. I have no idea how you relate this to 2 Cor 5:8?

Yes we are , so why are we IF we are secure in our salvation? It's because if we don't, then we run the risk of falling into apostasy, and as such, will become part of the GREAT falling away. 2 Thess 2:3
FYI, Rom 7 is about NOT being able to live under the OC Law of Sin and Death, but that only the NC provision of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as our savior can actually settle the debt owed to God.