The Doctrine of OSAS

[IanLC]

To struggle with sin is different from living a life committed and devoted to sin. All of us struggle with sin (being present in the flesh, we do not always walk right) yet those of us saved are repentant of our wrongdoing and move to walk in the grace of God who worketh righteousness in us! Those who sin (yet claim salvation) and overrides the conviction of the Holy Ghost I would say never had salvation to begin with or had fallen off.

 

[ladodgers6]

The verse that you speak of here is not in John 8.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Notice what Jesus says in verse 27

My sheep hear my voice

They hear...and they listen. They pay attention to His every word...

I know them

He knows each one by name. And they know HIm. Elsewhere it says that they will not hear the voice of strangers.
So I ask again....why is it that so many OSASers seem to know Paul's letters better than they know the words of Jesus Christ?
Quick without looking...what are the opening lines to the Sermon on the Mount?
For that matter, where would I find the Sermon on the Mount? I am appalled at how many do not know...

they follow me

Those precious sheep not only listen....they follow. They respond to their Master's Voice. They trust Him....and they obey Him.



Oh, and that last line:

no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

Please notice that it does not say that one cannot remove his or her self from His hand. There are many cases in the Bible of people who did just that.

For the record I have said I don't like the acronym "OSAS". But I do believe in, that God has a Plan of Redemption for his elect. And they will never perish. Because these are ones the whom the Father gave to Son to save. And I don't know what you mean by OSASer's have better knowledge of Paul then Christ? Because the Bible is God's words. The whole thing. I can't believe you do not use the entire Bible, because by your comment, you are suggesting the rest of the Bible is worthless! So here are some passages from Jesus, John 10:28-29New International Version (NIV)
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

 

[StanJ]

I thought and correct me if I am wrong. But I thought when a scripture is not clear enough, we use scripture to interpret scripture. Romans is lucid and concise of God's election. Does he not say that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy & compassion? And it depends NOT on human will. But on God's election so that NO CAN BOAST!!! What question do you have for me.

Yes, we are to use ALL scripture to determine what it does say in regards to any subject, but that doesn't mean ripping single scriptures out of context to do so. It's also important than when you quote scripture, you quote the reference to it so one can see how and where it is sued. I don't see how adding a word like election to Eph 2:1-10 in any way helps you, but in fact, shows a certain amount of desperation in asserting that your doctrine says what God's written word does NOT. ALL it does, for those that do know how to exegete the scriptures, is confirm your lack of understanding of the same.

 

[Barrd]

For the record I have said I don't like the acronym "OSAS". But I do believe in, that God has a Plan of Redemption for his elect. And they will never perish. Because these are ones the whom the Father gave to Son to save. And I don't know what you mean by OSASer's have better knowledge of Paul then Christ? Because the Bible is God's words. The whole thing. I can't believe you do not use the entire Bible, because by your comment, you are suggesting the rest of the Bible is worthless! So here are some passages from Jesus, John 10:28-29New International Version (NIV)
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Quick, without looking...what are the opening lines to The Sermon on the Mount?
For that matter, without looking, can you tell me where to find The Sermon on the Mount?

I've run into "Christians" who don't even know what The Sermon on the Mount" even is....but they know all about Paul's letters.

I do use the entire Bible...but I do place more importance on the Words of Christ than any other part of it. If something Paul says in his letters seems to disagree with what Jesus has said, I will assume that the problem is that I am misunderstanding Paul. As Peter tells us, there are some things in Paul's letters that are hard to understand, and unlearned and unstable people will twist his letters to their own destruction.

Generally, close examination will show that Paul is not in disagreement with Jesus after all. It just takes a little work...

 

[Barrd]

The first thing that a seeker after truth must realize is that there are things in Paul's letters that are difficult to understand. Twisting the scriptures, by the way, is one of the most common ways a believer can fall from grace….”unto their own destruction.”

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[mjrhealth]

So I ask again....why is it that so many OSASers seem to know Paul's letters better than they know the words of Jesus Christ?

My question is, why do so many christians know the bible and yet dont know Jesus??

Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Here is a man, pharisee of pharisees he called himself, counted all that as dung, olnly wanted to know Jesus.

In ll his Love

 

[ATP]

My question is, why do so many christians know the bible and yet dont know Jesus??

Yeah that is strange. When I was a nonbeliever the last thing on my mind was the Bible.

 

[Barrd]

This verse, for instance:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

Now, that seems pretty straightforward to me.

The word translated "faith" here is the same word as other passages. And the word for depart means just what you might think it would men.

Yet, somehow, some folks seem to have the notion that these folks didn't actually have "real" faith. As if the Holy Spirit doesn't know what He's talking about...

 

[ladodgers6]

Yes, we are to use ALL scripture to determine what it does say in regards to any subject, but that doesn't mean ripping single scriptures out of context to do so. It's also important than when you quote scripture, you quote the reference to it so one can see how and where it is sued. I don't see how adding a word like election to Eph 2:1-10 in any way helps you, but in fact, shows a certain amount of desperation in asserting that your doctrine says what God's written word does NOT. ALL it does, for those that do know how to exegete the scriptures, is confirm your lack of understanding of the same.

No problem I will connect the dots for those who do not understand the whole debate. And I would like you to support your accusations with facts instead of just saying it without it. Because what we are debating here is no novelty;nothing new. This topic has been debated by the greatest minds in Christendom. I am only sharing it here. What you fail to see and understand by your premise, is that we need to contribute something to our Redemption. And further that Christ is not sufficient to ANYONE, because it is ultimately OUR WORKS that save, not Christ's. Let me connect the dots. Yo may be saying you disagree with statement. But your words say otherwise. Why? well its either Christ who saves because of what He HAS DONE and FINISHED AT THE CROSS or NOT. It cannot be both. And if Christ did secure the salvation of his people at the Cross. Then they WILL NEVER PERISH because this is the will of the Father who is greater than ALL. I am not ripping this out of context or distorting this in anyway. Its when people see that their premises are incorrect they rather throw rocks than seek the truth in scripture, and present scripture to refute it. Instead people remain stubborn and hard headed, and not studying scripture to find the truth. The saving of God's people is God's Covenant Promise to Adam, Abraham!

 

[Barrd]

No problem I will connect the dots for those who do not understand the whole debate. And I would like you to support your accusations with facts instead of just saying it without it. Because what we are debating here is no novelty;nothing new. This topic has been debated by the greatest minds in Christendom. I am only sharing it here. What you fail to see and understand by your premise, is that we need to contribute something to our Redemption. And further that Christ is not sufficient to ANYONE, because it is ultimately OUR WORKS that save, not Christ's. Let me connect the dots. Yo may be saying you disagree with statement. But your words say otherwise. Why? well its either Christ who saves because of what He HAS DONE and FINISHED AT THE CROSS or NOT. It cannot be both. And if Christ did secure the salvation of his people at the Cross. Then they WILL NEVER PERISH because this is the will of the Father who is greater than ALL. I am not ripping this out of context or distorting this in anyway. Its when people see that their premises are incorrect they rather throw rocks than seek the truth in scripture, and present scripture to refute it. Instead people remain stubborn and hard headed, and not studying scripture to find the truth. The saving of God's people is God's Covenant Promise to Adam, Abraham!

You are right that Jesus finished His work at the cross.
I'm sure you know John 3:16...just about everyone can quote that one, even non-Christians. But just in case there might be someone who somehow does not know this famous Bible verse, here it is:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There is more:

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Notice, Jesus did not come to save a select few...He came to save the whole world.
And He qualifies it by saying that He had not been sent to condemn the world.

 

[ATP]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[ATP]

Some shall depart from the faith, not saving faith.."departed" in 1 Tim 4:1-2 NIV is translated "aphistémi" which means to lead away, to depart from. Also notice in Luke 8:13 NIV the same word "aphistémi" is used for the term "fall away". Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation...

Luke 8:13 NIV Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Also notice it's mentioning two different people here, those who forbid people to etc...and those who believe and who know the truth.

1 Tim 4:1-3 NIV The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

 

[mjrhealth]

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Yes thats teh part that is left out the believeing part, how can one say they have faith if they dont believe God???

How can one say they are saved if they dont believe they are??

In all His Love

 

[ladodgers6]

Quick, without looking...what are the opening lines to The Sermon on the Mount?
For that matter, without looking, can you tell me where to find The Sermon on the Mount?

I've run into "Christians" who don't even know what The Sermon on the Mount" even is....but they know all about Paul's letters.

I do use the entire Bible...but I do place more importance on the Words of Christ than any other part of it. If something Paul says in his letters seems to disagree with what Jesus has said, I will assume that the problem is that I am misunderstanding Paul. As Peter tells us, there are some things in Paul's letters that are hard to understand, and unlearned and unstable people will twist his letters to their own destruction.

Generally, close examination will show that Paul is not in disagreement with Jesus after all. It just takes a little work...

Wow, I hope I win a prize. I like how I get all the question from this person, but no responses to my points. I love Sermon on the Mount, because here Jesus is speaking about Law & Gospel in relation to Justification By Faith Alone! Do you know the anti-thesis between Law & Gospel to which Christ is speaking of in this Sermon? For those who do not this teaching which is in taught in the Whole Bible. Its how a sinner inherits Salvation. Its either through the works of the Law, or through Faith. But it cannot be both.

And sorry to say it. But the Bible is Christ's words. Not just in the Gospel. Did not Christ reveal to Paul anything??? You seek the answer here. Are we to just avoid all but the Gospels??? I think not. There is nothing in Paul that disagrees with what Christ says. Wow! I am perplexed by this comment, because then you do not believe that the Bible is God's entire word. And if you do believe the Bible is God's entire word, then he will not contradict himself. You're just missing the theme of the Bible. That the Second Adam came to save and redeem sinners, which the first Adam doomed to death & darkness. This redemption story is told from Genesis to Revelation. A promise God made to Adam & Eve. A promise that will come to pass. And nobody can stop him, from redeeming his people.

Quick,quick....

What promise did God make with Adam & Eve????

What promise did God make with Abraham????

 

[StanJ]

No problem I will connect the dots for those who do not understand the whole debate. And I would like you to support your accusations with facts instead of just saying it without it. Because what we are debating here is no novelty;nothing new. This topic has been debated by the greatest minds in Christendom. I am only sharing it here. What you fail to see and understand by your premise, is that we need to contribute something to our Redemption. And further that Christ is not sufficient to ANYONE, because it is ultimately OUR WORKS that save, not Christ's. Let me connect the dots. Yo may be saying you disagree with statement. But your words say otherwise. Why? well its either Christ who saves because of what He HAS DONE and FINISHED AT THE CROSS or NOT. It cannot be both. And if Christ did secure the salvation of his people at the Cross. Then they WILL NEVER PERISH because this is the will of the Father who is greater than ALL. I am not ripping this out of context or distorting this in anyway. Its when people see that their premises are incorrect they rather throw rocks than seek the truth in scripture, and present scripture to refute it. Instead people remain stubborn and hard headed, and not studying scripture to find the truth. The saving of God's people is God's Covenant Promise to Adam, Abraham!

Well you could have taken this opportunity to do so instead of just telling us you would.
I'm pretty sure if you read all my posts on this thread, you will find that they are supported by scripture and exegesis.
Yes, this topic has been debated a lot, but that is not really the point of THIS thread now is it?
Redemption is used in a few ways in the NT, so you'll have to be a little more exact, than by saying, "we need to contribute something to our Redemption".
What I am seeing here is a tad incohesive and lacking in proper punctuation. It's best you don't use long run on sentences without punctuation when you post, and assign to me words I never said. There is a quote function here on CB you should learn to use to avoid any misunderstanding on anyone's part and the probable scenario that you will not be properly understood.
Jesus died to reconcile and redeem ALL men from sin. Only those that accept this truth can be saved. Acts 4:12 (NIV), Rom 10:9-11 (NIV)

 

[StanJ]

What promise did God make with Adam & Eve????

What promise did God make with Abraham????

How exactly can you expect to discuss the Bible when you have to ask questions about it?
The issue on THIS thread is OSAS, NOT God promises to Adam and Abraham, so I respectfully suggest you make your points and move along, instead of playing word games and deflecting the topic.

 

[Barrd]

Wow, I hope I win a prize. I like how I get all the question from this person, but no responses to my points. I love Sermon on the Mount, because here Jesus is speaking about Law & Gospel in relation to Justification By Faith Alone! Do you know the anti-thesis between Law & Gospel to which Christ is speaking of in this Sermon? For those who do not this teaching which is in taught in the Whole Bible. Its how a sinner inherits Salvation. Its either through the works of the Law, or through Faith. But it cannot be both.

And sorry to say it. But the Bible is Christ's words. Not just in the Gospel. Did not Christ reveal to Paul anything??? You seek the answer here. Are we to just avoid all but the Gospels??? I think not. There is nothing in Paul that disagrees with what Christ says. Wow! I am perplexed by this comment, because then you do not believe that the Bible is God's entire word. And if you do believe the Bible is God's entire word, then he will not contradict himself. You're just missing the theme of the Bible. That the Second Adam came to save and redeem sinners, which the first Adam doomed to death & darkness. This redemption story is told from Genesis to Revelation. A promise God made to Adam & Eve. A promise that will come to pass. And nobody can stop him, from redeeming his people.

Quick,quick....

What promise did God make with Adam & Eve????

What promise did God make with Abraham????

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

The Sermon on the Mount is found in Matthew 5-7.

The opening lines are called the Beatitudes...(I always want to spell it "Beautitudes", because they are such beautiful words).

The Sermon on the Mount reveals the heart of Christ. A beautiful Sermon indeed.

Now, don't mistake me. I have great respect for Paul, and for his writing. But I do understand that Paul was a Jewish lawyer, and he writes like a Jewish lawyer. Yes, Paul agrees with Christ. But Paul isn't teaching "eternal security".

Consider this passage from Timothy:



1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Or this one:


Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It is possible for a believer to fall away...and lose his/her salvation.

ADDED:
Yes, the entire Bible is the Word of God. Every bit of it.
We can't just leave out verses we don't like because they don't agree with our favorite doctrine.
If you only believe certain verses, and reject others, then it isn't the Bible you are believing...it is yourself. Augustine said something like that, but I can't remember the exact quote offhand...and I'm too lazy to look it up at this hour...

 

[Barrd]

How exactly can you expect to discuss the Bible when you have to ask questions about it?
The issue on THIS thread is OSAS, NOT God promises to Adam and Abraham, so I respectfully suggest you make your points and move along, instead of playing word games and deflecting the topic.

He meant that for me, Stan, because I had issued a challenge that most OSASers know Paul's letters better than the words of Jesus Christ. I have been shocked to find how many "Christians" have never read The Sermon on the Mount. So he responded with that silly challenge.
Sorry...that was my fault.

 

[StanJ]

He meant that for me, Stan, because I had issued a challenge that most OSASers know Paul's letters better than the words of Jesus Christ. I have been shocked to find how many "Christians" have never read The Sermon on the Mount. So he responded with that silly challenge.
Sorry...that was my fault.

I did see that, but my point stands that this is NOT the kind of reply that generates constructive of responsible dialogue.
Maybe my sarcasm wasn't coming through enough?
I do tend to get into other's discussions when they are being facetious. Not blaming you for anything.

 

[ladodgers6]

You are right that Jesus finished His work at the cross.
I'm sure you know John 3:16...just about everyone can quote that one, even non-Christians. But just in case there might be someone who somehow does not know this famous Bible verse, here it is:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There is more:

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Notice, Jesus did not come to save a select few...He came to save the whole world.
And He qualifies it by saying that He had not been sent to condemn the world.

Okay we are in agreement that Christ finished it at the cross. So for clarification, what did Christ "FINISH" at the Cross???