The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

No actually you haven't. And I did not lie.

In the thread “Pay to Pray eRosary from the Vatican” – I said in post #249:
What happened in the 16th century was an abuse by some clerics - but it was NEVER a teaching of the Catholic Church. The most famous example was a man names Johann Tetzel who went about the German countryside selling indulgences. HE is the reason Luther got so fed up.

YOU responded in post #252 with:
“One of those "clerics" was Pope Leo X.....just saying....”
LIE #1


I went on to ask you for documented evidence that LEO ordered the sale of Indulgences.
YOU responded in post #259 with t the following:
“Not a shred of evidence? Oh brother. It is widely known that he authorized the sale of indulgences to build St. Peter's because he had emptied the church coffers.”
LIE #2


Now for the BIG GUNS . . .
After I asked you for a document – in post #272 – YOU posted the following:
“Instructio Summaria ad Subcommissarios Poenitentiarum et Confessores”

This was written by a GERMAN BISHOP – and NOT Pope Leo.
LIE #3


You have lied and weaseled your way around this entire conversation because you don’t do your homework.
Consider yourself exposed for lying - and historically-spanked . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

He also ignores history. Looks like the RCC has tried to erase history because it exposes their false teachings. This is not surprising since they didn't want the Bible in the hands of common man either.

Care to substantiate that historically-bankrupt claim?
This is one of my favorite anti-Catholic whoppers . . .

 

[Ezra]

You have lied and weaseled your way around this entire conversation because you don’t do your homework.
Consider yourself exposed for lying - and historically-spanked . . .

YOU HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB AVOIDING SCRIPTURES you place your faith in man made works. which is as filthy rags you do know what the meaning filthy rags is implying dont you

 

[BreadOfLife]

YOU HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB AVOIDING SCRIPTURES you place your faith in man made works. which is as filthy rags you do know what the meaning filthy rags is implying dont you

Once again - you stray from the topic.
STAY FOCUSED - or step aside and let your fellow anti-Catholics debate the topics at hand.

 

[Ezra]

STAY FOCUSED - or step aside and let your fellow anti-Catholics debate the topics at hand.

lol i am sorry you cant multi task gee lets see the topic is purgatory and the third step of purifying . mythology one on one

 

[reformed1689]

In the thread “Pay to Pray eRosary from the Vatican” – I said in post #249:
What happened in the 16th century was an abuse by some clerics - but it was NEVER a teaching of the Catholic Church. The most famous example was a man names Johann Tetzel who went about the German countryside selling indulgences. HE is the reason Luther got so fed up.

YOU responded in post #252 with:
“One of those "clerics" was Pope Leo X.....just saying....”
LIE #1


I went on to ask you for documented evidence that LEO ordered the sale of Indulgences.
YOU responded in post #259 with t the following:
“Not a shred of evidence? Oh brother. It is widely known that he authorized the sale of indulgences to build St. Peter's because he had emptied the church coffers.”
LIE #2


Now for the BIG GUNS . . .
After I asked you for a document – in post #272 – YOU posted the following:
“Instructio Summaria ad Subcommissarios Poenitentiarum et Confessores”

This was written by a GERMAN BISHOP – and NOT Pope Leo.
LIE #3


You have lied and weaseled your way around this entire conversation because you don’t do your homework.
Consider yourself exposed for lying - and historically-spanked . . .

Yes, you said there is not a shred of evidence that Leo authorized it. EXCEPT THERE IS a shred of evidence, as I presented. Now you move the goalposts.

 

[reformed1689]

Care to substantiate that historically-bankrupt claim?
This is one of my favorite anti-Catholic whoppers . . .

Of course. Forbidding the translation into common language. Keeping the mass in Latin etc etc etc.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Of course. Forbidding the translation into common language. Keeping the mass in Latin etc etc etc.

Nice.
Time for a history lesson . . .

The "common language" or lingua franca in the developed world of the first century was Greek. That's why the NT was written in Greek.
As time went on and the influence of the Roman Empire spread - the lingua franca became Latin. Hence, when the Books of the Bible were compiled and the canon was declared by the Catholic Church, and the Bible was translated into Latin in the 4th century by St. Jerome.

Ummmmmm, and in case you didn't know - up to 85% of the known world at the time was functionally ILLITERATE and would have had ZERO use for a Bible. Anyway - Bibles were HANDWRITTEN and took YEARS to copy - so they were extremely expensive.

As for why they were NOT allowed to be translated willy-nilly into different languages - it's because they WERE translated by some people who were rich enough to afford to have them translated. This resulted in bastardized and spurious versions being copied and heretical doctrines arising from them. The Church's moratorium on translating Bibles was an effort to halt these abuses.

The Church has been translating Books of the Bible into other languages since the SIXTH century. They simply didn't want people doing it on their own because NOT everybody is equipped to translate meticulously from language to language - for obvious reasons.

STUDY your history, dude . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, you said there is not a shred of evidence that Leo authorized it. EXCEPT THERE IS a shred of evidence, as I presented. Now you move the goalposts.

Uhhhhhh, no - you presented a document from a German Bishop - NOT Pope Leo.
That's like saying that YOU wrote MY autobiography . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

lol i am sorry you cant multi task gee lets see the topic is purgatory and the third step of purifying . mythology one on one

Refute this - IF you can . . .

Regarding Final Purification (Purgatory)
In 1 Cor. 3:10‐15, this is how the process is described:
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."

- This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ and there is NO salvation in Hell.
- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.

I eagerly await your intelligent and well-thought-out response . . .

 

[reformed1689]

Uhhhhhh, no - you presented a document from a German Bishop - NOT Pope Leo.
That's like saying that YOU wrote MY autobiography . . .

You didn't ask for a document from Pope Leo. You asked for a shred of evidence which I provided. You have no right to call me a liar.

 

[brakelite]

This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ and there is NO salvation in Hell.
- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.

Would I be correct that the support for purgatory is based on the assumption that the fire spoken of in relation to cleansing of the moral character is a literal fire? If however the fire is metaphorical, then the cleansing could be applied to this life... The fires of hard knocks and the associated pain and suffering that goes with self denial and the hunger and thirst for righteousness.

 

[brakelite]

Please initially respond to these 13 question on the basis of your best instincts rather than from what you perceive the Bible to teach. Subsequently, I will address all 13 questions from a biblical perspective and then you will be encouraged to respond to the cited biblical texts. The questions are relevant to the debate over universal salvation, but this thread is only intended to apply them to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and, more broadly, to the question of ultimate release from Hell. And no, I'm not a Catholic; I'm an Evangelical.

13 PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE POST-MORTEM STATE OF THE DAMMED:

(1) At the moment of postmortem survival, do we retain the same basic moral character that we developed in this life?
(2) Would many carnal Christians be unable to live in a sin-free heavenly realm?
(3) Does Jesus' principle that like attracts like in the afterlife make many professing Christians unsuitable company for the saints in Heaven?
(4) Might not Hell be a realm of both reformative justice and retributive justice?
(5) Because of their secular upbringing or negative life experience, millions of people have heard the Gospel with no conviction that it is true. Is it just to send them to eternal conscious torment because their spiritual intuition is fatally flawed?
(6) Can anyone do enough in our brief sojourn on Earth to merit eternal conscious torment with no chance of postmortem redemption?
(7) If there are multiple Heavens and Hells with different levels, might not continual progress be made from one level to another?
(8) How does the concept of pure unconditional divine love apply to those in eternal conscious postmortem torment?
(9) If denizens of Hell sincerely wanted to repent, rise into God's loving presence, and be spiritually transformed, would a loving God deny them that opportunity?
(10) What keeps sinners in Hell--God, Satan, or the sinners themselves?
(11) Shall the will of an omnipotent God to save everyone be eternally thwarted?
(12) Is it reasonable to assume that no soul retrievals from Hell would ever be attempted?
(13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?

No where in scripture will you find a "thus sayeth the Lord... The wages of sin is eternal conscious torment".

 

[Ezra]

Refute this - IF you can . . .

Regarding Final Purification (Purgatory)
In 1 Cor. 3:10‐15, this is how the process is described:
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."

- This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ and there is NO salvation in Hell.
- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.

I eagerly await your intelligent and well-thought-out response . . .

sigh this is not Final Purification (Purgatory) it is the judgement of seat the bema seat of Christ for rewards .get away from catholic teaching .read your BIBLE if the Blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness . why do you think it takes a extra step?

Refute this - IF you can . . .

looks like i just did .i have lost count

- This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ and there is NO salvation in Hell.
- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.

1 john 1: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. what part of the blood cleanseth us FROM ALL SINS dont you understand you keep drinking the false doctrine kool aid . i have refuted you i have used scripture i have done apologetics . understand i am to the point .i REALLY DON'T CARE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH. .IT IS NO SKIN OFF MY BACK your self righteous works is like filthy rags . filthy rags is translated is as a discarded menstrual pad not good for only thing. that is what i think about your bulloney . my last fact to you when you leave this life on earth in death .you best make real sure your sins are under the BLOOD. if not there is no 2nd or 3rd chance .if your not born again regenerated . then you will be like the
rich man in luke 16 in HELL you will life your eyes up intourments . there will be no priest pray you will not be purified after death . you put that in your pipe and smoke it .your mythology will burn up

 

[BreadOfLife]

Would I be correct that the support for purgatory is based on the assumption that the fire spoken of in relation to cleansing of the moral character is a literal fire? If however the fire is metaphorical, then the cleansing could be applied to this life... The fires of hard knocks and the associated pain and suffering that goes with self denial and the hunger and thirst for righteousness.

A NOTE to ALL Anti-Catholics on this thread:

Take note of @Brakelite’s response.

THIS is a valid refutation of the Catholic position I presented regarding 2 Cor. 3:10-15 It is not the usual cowardly, evasive, insult-laden, anti-Catholic pile of manure that I’ve been getting from some of the rest of you.

As to your response – I disagree, as you would expect.

This is talking about the “DAY” (Judgement). It is a review of this life – not a period of time in this life.

Also – it’s not necessarily talking about a literal fire – but a suffering that is compared to a fire.

 

[BreadOfLife]

sigh this is not Final Purification (Purgatory) it is the judgement of seat the bema seat of Christ for rewards .get away from catholic teaching .read your BIBLE if the Blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness . why do you think it takes a extra step?
looks like i just did .i have lost count

Once again – Final Purification (Purgatory) has absolutely nothing to do with “second chances”.

Everybody who is to receive Final Purification is destined to enter Heaven – and ONLY because of what Christ did on the cross. YOUR continual failure to understand this shows me that you don’t have a grasp on this doctrine – and are therefore not qualified to debate it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You didn't ask for a document from Pope Leo. You asked for a shred of evidence which I provided. You have no right to call me a liar.

I didn’t call you a “liar”.
I said you LIED about Pope Leo – which you DID.

Don’t add more lies to your repertoire . . .

 

[reformed1689]

I didn’t call you a “liar”.
I said you LIED about Pope Leo – which you DID.

Don’t add more lies to your repertoire . . .

Except there is evidence to suggest I didn't.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Except there is evidence to suggest I didn't.

WRONG.
There is only your opinion.

Evidence is fact-based . . .

 

[reformed1689]

WRONG.
There is only your opinion.

Evidence is fact-based . . .

Yep and I gave evidence. You don't agree with the evidence, that is your right, but the paper trail is there.