BreadOfLife
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Like I said - I can't make you address those verses.
I can just present them - and watch you run away from them . .
The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective
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I can just present them - and watch you run away from them . .
SIGH MORE MYTHOLOGY KEEP TRYING SHOW US WHERE MARY TAKES YOUR PRAYERS TO JESUS --BONG BONG IM FIXING TO CALL THE UNDERTAKER your mythology is dead dead dead
BreadOfLife
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This requires a long study, and this is in brief.
I find purgatory hokey, regardless of who takes the credit for the invention.
Not sure what you mean by "spiritual flaw".
Scripture is clear.
Hear of God, Believe in God, Believe in the Word of God and ...
measures of the Gift of Faith from God will be given unto you.
Stop ...
believing, and also will ones Gift of increased Faith cease.
Continue ...
believing, and so will Gods Gift of Faith be increased.
Confess your Faithfulness to your Lord ...
and ...
Your soul BECOMES restored.
Your natural spirit receives Gods SEED and BECOMES born again.
Your body BECOMES spiritually dead, cleansed, sanctified, and prepared to be RISEN in Glory, while in the mean-time, during the rest of your natural life, you live "IN" Christ Jesus' Glorified Risen body.
In this AGE, since Jesus' first arrival on Earth AS the Son of God, He Taught and Revealed His WAY, BY EXAMPLE, of the mystery of How men BEFORE physical death, could Receive;
A restored soul.
A quickened spirit.
An acceptble spiritual death.
A continued physical existance "IN" Christ.
And when the body physically Dies;
The soul goes to Heaven.
The spirit goes to Heaven.
The body goes to the grave and waits to be risen in Glory.
In a previous AGE, (before Jesus came to earth), the requirements were the SAME:
Hear of God, Believe in God, Believe in the Word of God.
Natural bodies died.
Souls of men were restored ...
And ...
Such souls waited IN comfort on the side of the gulf in hell, with Abraham's soul, and sustained by the Tree of Life, and called "saints".
MANY ...
Of the "saints", bodily rose up out of their graves and walked with Jesus after He rose up bodily from the dead.
Bodies can NOT;
Physically walk, without a soul in their body.
Spiritually walk, with Christ, without a quickened spirit (born of Gods SEED).
Thus men from an earlier age, (before Jesus came to earth), who believed in God and the Word of God, who physically died ...
Their body went to the grave.
Their soul went to the comfort side of hell, returned to their bodies.
Their spirits were quickened and rose up and walked with Jesus.
Matt 27
[52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Thereafter, their bodies returned to the grave.
Their restored souls went to Heaven.
Their quickened spirits went to Heaven.
Their bodies shall be Raised in Glory, in a future Age, the SAME as all who Hear, Believe in God, Believe in the Word of God, and Confess their Belief to the Lord.
Those Whose UNRESTORED soul continues to go to hell (in this age), are they who have Heard, and DO NOT Believe in God, or IN the Word of God.
Their Natural body that has become dead, goes to the grave.
Their soul goes to hell, tormented by the separation from God, His Word, His comfort, The Beauty of His Earth and The Plesantries of His Earth.
Their Natural spirit, was never quickened, and naturally dies with their body.
THEY (ie their soul, in hell is fully conscience of the same senses, as when the soul was in their Living body), to be raised up in DAMMNATION.
Nothing in Scripture undermines, them being raised in Damnation.
John 5:
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Nothing in Scripture teaches, that God restores souls in the torments side of hell.
Pray for the Living, to the God of the Living.
Matt. 19
[26] But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Yes!
KEY word, "WITH".
Ecc 9
[5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
In this AGE, souls waiting in hell, are unrestored souls, separated from God, "WITHOUT" God... Because that is what they chose... And because God is JUST, in that, what a man desires God will give the man.
Glory to God,
Taken
study the word the stress will leave purgatory is a myth .the blood of jesus takes care of our sins. when we die its either heaven or hell.no in between mode to be purified.read about the blood in hebrews .to say that there has to be a purification process after we die to go to heaven .takes away the death burial resurrection of christ .in fact it could be blaspheme
Jesus was using a Jewish word when he spoke about Gehinnom. I figure his Jewish listeners understood what he meant.
So all urges to sin are conquered immediately? I don't think so.
I'll rely on what Jesus said about Gehinnom. His description of the rich man and Lazarus is typical Jewish thought.
If indeed they are dead. But Abraham is not dead. Jesus said as much.
Separated from God? How could that be?
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
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Huh?study the word the stress will leave purgatory is a myth .the blood of jesus takes care of our sins. when we die its either heaven or hell.no in between mode to be purified.read about the blood in hebrews .to say that there has to be a purification process after we die to go to heaven .takes away the death burial resurrection of christ .in fact it could be blaspheme
@BreadOfLife no one can refute the Catholic position with regards 1 Cor 3:10-15. That is assuredly the Catholic position, and for non Catholics to attempt to refute it is futile.
However, there is the Protestant position with regards to 1Cor3:10-15, and it would be equally futile for a Catholic to attempt to refute the Protestant position. We all come to the scriptures from different directions and different perspectives... Its like a renaissance artist and Andy Warhol arguing over the pros and cons of contemporary rap music.
Now you might argue that your perspective is more biblical, but in truth what it is is traditional. Whether to argue that tradition is equal to or whether scripture should be interpreted in light of tradition is another futile argument for the same reason as above. It's Catholic and you are in a Protestant forum
We are different.
The Protestant however would claim his interpretation more biblically accurate because he had other scriptures from elsewhere in the Bible that contradict your tradition... But that again is the protestants'position and again, to argue over which is right is futile. Both are right. One is perfectly Catholic, and the other is perfectly Protestant.
However, there is the Protestant position with regards to 1Cor3:10-15, and it would be equally futile for a Catholic to attempt to refute the Protestant position. We all come to the scriptures from different directions and different perspectives... Its like a renaissance artist and Andy Warhol arguing over the pros and cons of contemporary rap music.
Now you might argue that your perspective is more biblical, but in truth what it is is traditional. Whether to argue that tradition is equal to or whether scripture should be interpreted in light of tradition is another futile argument for the same reason as above. It's Catholic and you are in a Protestant forum
We are different.
The Protestant however would claim his interpretation more biblically accurate because he had other scriptures from elsewhere in the Bible that contradict your tradition... But that again is the protestants'position and again, to argue over which is right is futile. Both are right. One is perfectly Catholic, and the other is perfectly Protestant.
BreadOfLife
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Thank you for your response – and for keeping the anti-Catholic sentiment out of it.
Regardless of what you believe to be “futile”, however, I was looking for a Protestant interpretation of this passage. How do YOU interpret what is going on in 2 Cor. 10:15?
By the way – when I first came here and read the description about this site – I don’t ever recall it being described as a “Protestant” site. It was described as a place where people come together to discuss and debate matters concerning Christianity and the Bible. I think that’s something that we can ALL engage in . . .
BreadOfLife
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You are correct.
The idea that Christians don’t or “can’t” sin is an arrogant heresy that even the Protestant Rebels in the 16th Century never dared to invent. They understood that we would continue to struggle with sin as we are BEING made perfect and holy (Heb. 10:14).
- Paul understood this (Rom. 7:13-25, 1 Tom. 1:15).
- John understood this (1 John 1:8).
- James understood this (James 5:16).
This is the Biblical truth.
First, I think the scripture you referring to is first Corinthians not second. My take on things is likely quite different from most, and coincidentally @VictoryinJesus started a thread on the verse I would base my understanding on... That God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:29. Another verse questions... Who shall stand in the midst of everlasting burnings...
Now I see the actual presence of God add being that which removes impurities from the life... And we become like gold tried in fire as Peter said. I get that Catholics believe such a process needs to continue after this life...I disagree. I believe the growth and perfection of character is attainable... Even the necessary, in this life. I am not saying that it struggle against sin and the carnal nature will ever be resolved in this life... The battle against "self" will ensure till the day we die.
I read in revelation how the new Jerusalem descends or of heaven to the earth, with the saints inside. The unsaved multitude are raised from the dead to face their judgement, and a fire or of heaven destroys them. This I believe is the presence of God... No sin... No evil... No impurity in moral character can abide in the presence of God. The more of the presence of God... The spirit of God...W have in our lives the more sanctified we shall become... The more we shall grow, for by beholding we are changed.
As you know, I am not a fan of eternal torment. I do not believe God's future universe will have anything in it that mars is perfection. Sin and sinners I believe will forever cease to exist.
no huh about it purgatory is a myth the Blood takes away all our sins . read the book of hebrews
If you steal my car, can you keep it and still have the sin forgiven? Does the Blood of Christ allow you to keep it?
And we see not all sins will be forgiven.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
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sigh so you feel you need a extra security blanket with your salvation for when you die . the above has NOTHING to do with purgatory
And? Do you figure Jesus' Jewish listeners "UNDERSTOOD" Gehinnom was a place of "torments" OR "purification" or a place of "torments" AND "purification" ?
Hinnon is a valley outside of Jerusalem, modernally called Gehinnom. Historically it is a place where Jewish kings "sacrificed" their children, buring them alive in fire.
Did the Jews equate that with ...
Torment or purification?
Because HELL, (referenced by Jews as Gehinnom), appears to be a place where the wicked are sent, for 12 months of torments, and then purification with fire.
(And the literal valley, was a place that gave people living in Jerusalem, a GLIMPSE, of what HELL would be LIKE, as they could hear the screams, and torments, and smell the burning flesh of children of the kings being burned).
Scripture teaches HELL IS a place, in the center of the Earth, with DIVISIONS.
The DIVISIONS are:
1) a place of comfort
2) a place of torments
3) a place of continual fire and smoke
WHAT "occupied" Hell "WAS"...
....BEFORE Jesus' manifestation, death, resurrection & ascension
1) souls of (dead) men With God...in comfort
2) souls of (dead) men Against God...in torments
3) spirit angels Against God..in fire
WHAT "occupies" Hell "IS" ...
....AFTER Jesus' ascension
1) souls of (dead) men AGAINST God...in torments (and wait for their bodies to be risen in Damnation)
2) spirit angels Against God...in fire
AFTER Jesus' ascension...
1) souls of (bodily dead men) WITH God...are carried up to Heaven, along with with their quickened (born again) "spirit" also rising up to Heaven (and wait for their bodies to be risen in Glory)
Hell divisions;
TWO sides divided by a Gulf.
A Deep Bottomless Pit of Fire.
Luke 16
[26] And beside all this, between us (the Saved souls) and you (the UNsaved souls) there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you (the UNsaved souls) cannot; neither can they pass to us, (the Saved souls) that would come from thence.
Rev 20
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Angels were Created Holy, thus they do not Receive Salvation, they simply KEEP their Holiness or Fall from their Holiness.
(IF they remain Holy, they remain WITH God.
IF they Fall away from their Holiness, they WILL BE forever WITHOUT God, in a PIT of Fire, in the deepest part of the Earth, forever being "purified" with Fire.)
Men are created Unholy (in sin), thus they CAN Receive Salvation, BY the "Condition" they Believe (and DO NOT fall away from their Belief.... BUT ALSO Commit their BELIEF "TO" the Lord. <--- Called Converted IN Christ, and thereafter KEPT from "falling away", BY the "POWER" of God.
To be Continued:
Glory to God,
Taken
I don't think @Giuliano was suggesting purgatory was being referenced. He was making the point that forgiveness doesn't come automatically just because you happen to believe it does. Restoring what you have stolen is important. So also is forgiving others. There are conditions to being forgiven. God's love is unconditional. Salvation isn't
We don't need to make things so complicated. What is Gehinnom (the spiritual place, not the physical valley) is the subject. If we want to know what Jews think Gehinnom is, we can find out. We don't need to speculate.
Do Jews Believe in Hell? - What Is the Jewish Belief on Hell?
The Jewish mystics described a spiritual place called “Gehinnom.” This is usually translated as “Hell,” but a better translation would be “the Supernal Washing Machine.” Because that’s exactly how it works. The way our soul is cleansed in Gehinnom is similar to the way our clothes are cleansed in a washing machine.
Put yourself in your socks’ shoes, so to speak. If you were to be thrown into boiling hot water and flung around for half an hour, you might start to feel that someone doesn’t like you. However, the fact is that it is only after going through a wash cycle that the socks can be worn again.
We don’t put our socks in the washing machine to punish them. We put them through what seems like a rough and painful procedure only to make them clean and wearable again. The intense heat of the water loosens the dirt, and the force of being swirled around shakes it off completely. Far from hurting your socks, you are doing them a favor by putting them through this process.
So too with the soul. Every act we do in our lifetime leaves an imprint on our soul. The good we do brightens and elevates our soul, and every wrongdoing leaves a stain that needs to be cleansed. If, at the end of our life, we leave this world without fixing the wrongs we have done, our soul is unable to reach its place of rest on high. We must go through a cycle of deep cleansing. Our soul is flung around at an intense spiritual heat to rid it of any residue it may have gathered, and to prepare it for entry into Heaven.
Purgatory or Gehinnom is not meant as a place of punishment although some may feel pain there. It is meant to cleanse or purge the soul.
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