The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

Wow. You carry on about the Church not sanctioning the sale of indulgences... but appear untroubled the Church RECEIVED and spent the money from the sale of Indulgences.

So? It doesn't mean The pope did't know HOW Money was being collected.

Why would it BE PROBABLE the pope did not know Indulgences were being Sold?
Date: Aug 1517

Men who bought Indulgences were showing their PAPERS of pardons around town.

Martin Luther Posted his objection to the selling of Indulgences...
Date: Oct 1517

Seriously? The Archbishop Albert...over Tetzel ... and of All Saints Church in Germany...didn't Know OR inform the pope, After Luther posted his objection? LOL

Sure the pope was informed, and Bad mouthed Luther relentlessly for making objections.

Not until 50 years later was the Selling of Indulgences Abolished.
Council of Trent 1567.

Glory to God,
Taken

Funny how you revisionists think.
I've heard this lie repeated so many times over the years even I almost believed it - until I did my homework.
Luther wasn't condemned for his "objections". By the way - his so-called, "99 Theses" were NOT all objections. SOME of them were agreements with the Church.

Luther was condemned for the things he said and did shortly AFTER Nov. 1, 1517. Here are some of the quotes that got him in trouble with the Church - and rightly so. . .

“If I, Dr. Luther, had thought that all the Papists together were capable of translating even one passage of Scripture correctly and well, I would have gathered up enough humility to ask for their aid and assistance in translating the New Testament into German.”

“If your Papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word "alone" (sola), say this to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so and he says that a papist and an ass are the same thing’.”

“Please do not give these asses any other answer to their useless braying about that word "sola" than simply ‘Luther will have it so, and he says that he is a doctor above all the papal doctors’."

“I know quite well how much skill, hard work, understanding and intelligence is needed for a good translation. They know it less than even the miller's donkey for they have never tried it."

“You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone is not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek”


And finally, he admitted adding the word 'alone' to Rom. 3:28 of his own volition:

“If your Papist annoys you with the word ('alone'), tell him straightway, ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so’: Papist and ass are one and the same thing. Whoever will not have my translation, let him give it the go-by: the devil's thanks to him who censures it without my will and knowledge. Luther will have it so, and he is a doctor above all the doctors in Popedom.” (Amic. Discussion, 1, 127,'The Facts About Luther,' O'Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 201.)

THIS is why he got into trouble.

As to your revisionism - wasn't it Hitler's Minister of Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels that said, "Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth"??

 

[CovenantPromise]

Long read! Lots of record keeping of Protestant nonsense and even more from Catholics. Let's start with the RCC's Protestant offshoot, which they brought forth out of their sins to begin with.
Was the Reformation about Religious Liberty?

“Historically nothing is more incorrect than the assertion that the Reformation was a movement in favor of intellectual freedom. The exact contrary is the truth. For themselves, it is true, Lutherans and Calvinists claimed liberty of conscience . . . but to grant it to others never occurred to them so long as they were the stronger side. They acted no differently than the harlots of hierarchy in the Catholic assembly. They did not act in the exception of their practice and rule. But were as the harlots were of the RCC.

The complete extirpation of the Catholic Church, and in fact of everything that stood in their way, was regarded by the reformers as something entirely natural.” ( Johann von Dollinger, Grisar, VI, 268-269; Dollinger: Kirche und Kirchen, 1861, 68)
Natural to an offspring birthed from the harlotry of the Catholic assembly, its mother.

“Save for a few splendid sayings of Luther, confined to the early years when he was powerless, there is hardly anything to be found among the leading reformers in favor of freedom of conscience. As soon as they had the power to persecute they did.”(Secular scholar Preserved Smith, The Social Background of the Reformation 177). They were no different from what the hierarchy of the Catholic Church were.

“...Luther’s nature was essentially despotic. He insisted that his will in theological and ecclesiastical matters must be supreme. Isn't that EXACTLY how the hierarchy of the Catholic church thought? Everyone who differed from him in regard to dogmas he pronounced a heretic, if not worse, and this in words which frequently were far too low and vulgar to be reproduced. Among the mildest of his utterances is:-- ‘Whoever teaches otherwise than I teach, condemns God, and must remain a child of hell’. After such words he hardly needed to say, ‘I can hear and endure nothing which is against my teachings.’” ( John L. Stoddard, Rebuilding a Lost Faith by an American Agnostic, p.97. as the saying goes....."like mother like daughter".

Continued.......

 

[CovenantPromise]

The Kings Used the Reformation For Money

“Right from the beginning, Luther's spiritual revolt had let loose material greed. The German rulers, the Scandinavian monarchs and Henry VIII of England had all taken advantage of the break from papal tutelage to appropriate both the wealth and the control of their respective Churches.” (Henri Daniel-Rops, 309-310)

“The cities found Protestantism profitable. . . . The Lutheran princes suppressed all monasteries in their territory except a few whose inmates had embraced the Protestant faith.” (Will Durant, 438-439)

Melanchthon, the right hand man of Luther, lamented about the outcome of the Reformation: “They do not care in the least about religion; they are only anxious to get dominion into their hands, to be free from the control of bishops . . . Under cover of the Gospel, the princes were only intent on the plunder of the Churches.”(Durant, 438, 440)

One of the worst of the plunders of Catholic property was under British King Henry VII who, after tearing the papal crown off the Rome’s bishop and placing it on his own head he made land grabs and seized Catholic property on his island as well as Ireland.

Luther’s friend Erasmus wrote, “This certainly is a fine turn of affairs, if property is wickedly taken away from priests so that soldiers may make use of it in worse fashion; and the latter squander their own wealth, and sometimes that of others, so that no one benefits.” (Erasmus, 157)

Luther was content with the expulsion of the Catholics. Melanchthon was in favor of proceeding against them with corporal penalties . . . Zwingli held that, in case of need, the massacre of bishops and priests was a work commanded by God. (Janssen, V, 290)

Now we start looking at the actual persecution.
Chronology of Anti-Catholicism


Luther Advocates Violence Towards the Catholics

1522-3
Protestant peasants went to the same church Luther had nailed his 95 thesis on and destroyed its altars, statues and threw out the priests. Many reformers thought it their duty to silence the Pope and popery by force. (Grisar, 298)

Luther, not too kindly nor with religious tolerance wrote: "The Pope and the Cardinals . . . since they are blasphemers, their tongues ought to be torn out through the back of their necks, and nailed to the gallows!" (Against the Papacy of Rome, Founded by the Devil)

More Luther:
"It were better that every bishop were murdered . . . And we would smile did it happen. All who contribute body, goods . . . that the rule of the bishops may be destroyed are God's dear children and true Christians." (Werke, Weimar, v.28, pp.142-201 Against the Falsely Called Spiritual Order of the Pope and the Bishops)
"...these Cardinals, these Popes, and that whole abomination of the Romish Sodom . . . why do we not wash our hands in their blood?" (Werke, Erl., v.2, p.107 On the Pope as an Infallible Teacher).

1524
See also: Martin Luther's Violent, Inflammatory Rhetoric and its Relationship to the German Peasants' Revolt (1524-1525)

1525
Zwingli's Zurich was definitely not a haven of Christian freedom:
The presence at sermons . . . was enjoined under pain of punishment; all teaching and church worship that deviated from the prescribed regulations was punishable. Even outside the district of Zurich the clergy were not allowed to read Mass or the laity to attend. (Janssen, V, 134-135)

The Mass was abolished in Zurich. (Dickens, 117).

In Zurich the reformers demolished churches and burned monsteries. Bishops of Constance, Basle, Lausanne and Geneva were forced to abandon their sees. (Daniel-Rops, 81-82)

Young Bible students he once mentored were now advocating more radical reform . . . refusing to have their babies baptized, citing his own earlier ideas . . . In January, 1525, Zwingli agreed that they deserved capital punishment . . . for tearing the fabric of a seamless Christian society. (John L Ruth., "America's Anabaptists: Who They Are," Christianity Today, October 22, 1990)

The penalties enjoined by the Town Council of Zurich [for Anabaptists] were 'drowning, burning, or beheading,' according as it seemed advisable . . . 'It is our will,' the Council proclaimed, 'that wherever they be found, whether singly or in companies, they shall be drowned to death, and that none of them shall be spared. (Janssen, V, 153-157)

1527
Luther's home territory of Saxony had instituted banishment for Catholics. (Grisar, VI, 241-242).
Inquisitor General: Martin Luther. Heretics? Catholics. “It is the duty of the authorities to resist and punish such public blasphemy.” (Grisar, VI, 240)

1528
At Constance, on March 10, the Catholic faith was banned. “There are no rights whatever beyond those laid down in the Gospel as it is now understood” So then they went about following what they interpreted the Bible to command by smashing altars, organs, and everything inside the Catholic churches were considered idolatrous. (Janssen, V, 146)

Zwingli declared the massacre of the bishops for the sake of the gospel. (Janssen, V, 180; Zwingli's Works, VII, 174-184) Zwingli’s treatment of Anabaptists hadn’t improved for his town council ordered 170 heretics burnt through the cheeks with hot irons; many were beheaded; some had their tongues cut out. (Janssen, V, 160)

Protestant theologian Meyfart (on tortures of Catholics he personally witnessed): “Rome it is not customary to subject a murderer . . . an incestuous person, or an adulterer to torture for the space of more than an hour; but in Germany . . .the torture is kept up for a whole day, for a day and a night, for two days . . . even also for four days . . . after which it begins again . . . There are stories extant so horrible and revolting that no true man can hear of them without a shudder.” (Janssen, XVI, 516-518, 521)

1529
Back in Luthersville and Calvinsville: the Council of Strassburg ordered the total destruction of several Catholic churches and convents. (Janssen, V, 143-144). AND in Frankfurt-am-Main (Durant, 424). AND in Basle, Switzerland. (Stoddard, 94)

1530
Luther advocates death by hanging for heretics and traitors.

1531
Luther’s bosom reformer, Melanchthon, insisted on capital punishment for the rejection of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (after putting some to death for this he changed his mind later on in life and himself rejected the real presence), the denial of infant baptism (Smith, 177), and the belief that some heathen might be saved (Janssen, IV, 140-141). He demanded the suppression of all books that opposed or hindered Lutheran teaching (Janssen, XIV, 503).

The Protestant states suppressed or forbade Catholic worship, and seized Catholic properties (Janssen, VI, 46-63, 181, 190, 208-214, 348-349). Censorship of the press was adopted (Janssen, IV, 232 ff.), along with excommunication (e.g., in the Augsburg Confession of 1530).

(note: I’m pretty sure these last two paragraphs were copied and pasted directly from Dave Armstrong’s website.)

Inquisitor General: Melanchthon Heretics: Anabaptists

After scores being sentence to death or life imprisonment, Melanchthon responded: “Why should we pity such men more than God does?” (Durant, 423) When Luther read of what his old friend was doing he replied that it please him and about all the cruelty his response was, “it is even more cruel of them . . . not to teach any certain doctrine -- to persecute the true doctrine . . .(Grisar, VI, 251)


In Strasburg not only the Catholic heretics were put to death, their entire families were executed with them. (Bax, 352).

Continued......

 

[CovenantPromise]

1533
Luther began what he called “frightening” citizens to attend Lutheran preaching under excommunication and threats of civil punishment. (Grisar, VI, 365; letter to Leonard Beyer,)

1534
Anglican England began slaughtering the Irish monks, almost 800 a year.

1535
Catholic mass abolished in Geneva. All Catholic churches, monasteries and convents seized and closed. (Harkness, 8)
Several Lutheran towns voted to hang or banish Anabaptists, Catholics or Zwinglians. (Janssen, V, 481).

King Henry burned or beheaded or disemboweled Anabaptists, monks and bishops. (Hughes, 181-182) Let’s hear some more gruesome details by one who saw it. These heretics were, “hanged until partially conscious. Then their bellies were cut open, their intestines wrenched out and tossed on a fire, and their hearts ripped out by hand. The bodies were beheaded and quartered, and the pieces were posted at various locations throughout England. As the executioner slit open his belly, John Houghton, prior of the London Carthusian monastery, said, "O most holy Jesus, have mercy upon me in this hour." This was the punishment for treason in sixteenth-century England. Their crime? Refusal to recognize "the king, our sovereign, to be the supreme head of the Church of England afore the Apostles of Christ's Church." Oh about 318 of them.... During England’s “Pilgrimage of Grace” the King suppressed those darned Catholic revolts, killing as many as 4000.

1536
Luther: “That seditious articles of doctrine [Catholics and Anabaptist’s] should be punished by the sword ...when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then . . . the stubborn sectaries must be put to death.” (Janssen, X, 222-223; pamphlet of 1536)
"Zwingli complained of Luther's intolerance when he was the victim . . . but he and his followers threw the poor Anabaptists into the Lake of Zurich, enclosed in sacks." (Patrick O’Hare, 50:293)

1530-40 Northern Europe
[There came a change . . .] The temptation to loot Church property and the habit of doing so had appeared and was growing; and this rapidly created a vested interest in promoting the change of religion. Those who attacked Catholic doctrine, as, for instance, in the matters of celibacy in the monastic orders . . . opened the door for the seizure of the enormous clerical endowments . . . by the Princes . . . The property of convents and monasteries passed wholesale to the looters over great areas of Christendom: Scandinavia, the British Isles, the Northern Netherlands, much of the Germanies and many of the Swiss Cantons. The endowments of hospitals, colleges, schools, guilds, were largely though not wholly seized . . . Such an economic change in so short a time our civilization had never seen . . . The new adventurers and the older gentry who had so suddenly enriched themselves, saw, in the return of Catholicism, peril to their immense new fortunes. (Hilaire Belloc, 9-l0)
[This is getting too long so I am going to skip some dates... just more of the same.... and I don’t want to be too redundant.]

1538
Henry made sure the Bible was made available to the English people.

1539
Henry regrets giving Bible to people because of theological riots in home, churches and taverns and forbids anyone but licensed theologians from preaching from scripture.

Catholic friar, John Forest, roasted alive over a fire made of a wooden statue of a saint.

Continued.........

 

[CovenantPromise]

1545 Switzerland
John Calvin wrote, “If he [Michael Servetus] comes to Geneva, I will never allow him to depart alive.” A few years later: Michael came. He did not conquer, and Michael burned.

Calvin recalls his martyrdom: “showed the dumb stupidity of a beast . . . He went on bellowing . . . in the Spanish fashion: "Misericordias!" . . .(Daniel-Rops, 190-191)

1554 Switzerland
Reformer Theodore of Beza wrote: “What crime can be greater or more heinous than heresy... Christian magistrates [Geneva], do your duty to God, who has put the sword into your hands for the honor of His majesty; strike valiantly these monsters in the guise of men.” Later he characterized those who demanded freedom of conscience “worse than the tyranny of the pope. It is better to have a tyrant, no matter how cruel he may be, than to let everyone do as he pleases.”

1558
When in England’s Protestant Queen Elizabeth I gained the throne, Ireland “ran red with the blood of innocent victims.” This icy butcheress starved to death or slaughtered around 1.5 million Catholics and seized their land. ( J. M., The Way of the Aggressor, p. 20.)

For just a break in the horror I thought I would pause here and tell you that:

• Zwingli called Luther “the devil” among other things many times.
• Lesser known Reformer, Oecolampadius believed Luther to be seduced by Satan and arrogant.
• Luther called other reformers “miscreants” who have “in-deviled, through-deviled, over-deviled, corrupt hearts and lying mouths.” He considered them damned.
• Calvin called Luther ignorant and wrote that “people ought not to let themselves be duped by following his steps.” He also wrote, “I am carefully on the watch that Lutheranism gain no ground, nor be introduced into France. The best means . . . for checking the evil would be that the confession written by me.” And he couldn’t stand Zwingli either.

1615
A Jesuit Disemboweled
Jesuits mutilated in England and Scotland.
Rare Book and Special Collections Division, Library of Congress

1652
British Parliament signs act that every Irish Catholic priest be hanged, beheaded, quartered, his bowels drawn out and burned, his head thrust upon public poles. Dissenters fingers were twisted off, they were seared with hot iron, whipped or beaten till bones were broken. The edict added, “If any one shall know where a priest remains concealed, in caves, woods, or caverns, or if by any chance he should meet a priest on the highway, and not immediately take him into custody and present him before the next magistrate, such person is to be considered a traitor and an enemy of the Republic... any correspondence or friendship with a priest, he is to suffer death.”

British Protestant historian, Professor Lecky recorded in his History of Ireland in the Eighteenth Century, “the slaughter of the Catholic Irishmen was looked upon as literally the slaughter of wild beasts. Not only men, but even women and children who fell into the hands of the English, were deliberately and systematically butchered. Bands of soldiers traversed great tracts of country, slaying every living thing they met.”
Scottish Protestant Dr. Smiles agrees, “Men, women and children wherever found were put indiscriminately to death. The soldiery was mad for blood. Priests were murdered at the altar, children at their mother’s breast. The beauty of woman, the venerableness of age, the innocence of youth was no protection against these sanguinary demons in human form.”

1586
British citizen, Protestant Margaret Clitherow, converted to Catholicism and was arrested for harboring a Catholic priest. Her sentence? The same as all who converted, she was to be crushed to death beneath a half tone of weights. She is recorded as stating, “I am fully resolved in all things touching my faith, which I ground upon Jesus Christ, and by him I steadfastly believe to be saved, which faith I acknowledge to be the same that he left to his apostles, and they to their successors from time to time, and is taught in the Catholic Church through all Christendom, and promised to remain with her unto the world's end, and hell-gates shall not prevail against the same faith; for if an angel come from heaven, and preach any other doctrine than we have received, the Apostle biddeth us not believe him.” As her ribs cracked, Margaret whimpered, "Jesus! Jesus! Jesus! Have mercy on me." Her body was left under the door and weights from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m., then stuffed secretly in a rubbish heap. Queen Elizabeth who ordered this execution, was responsible for murdering more Catholic in one year that the Inquisition did in all its over three hundred years. Anglican bishops were accomplices if not directly but for their silence.

1649
Oliver Cromwell sent to their deaths over 5500 Irish specifically as punishment for their Catholic faith. Including the entire population of the town of Drogheda. When reporting to the House of Commons, Cromwell announced, “It has pleased God to bless our endeavor at Drogheda. . . we put to the sword the whole number. . . . I wish that all honest hearts may give the glory of this to God alone, to whom indeed the praise of this mercy belongs." (Seumas MacManus,The Story of the Irish Race, 1920)

The infamous “Cromwellian Settlements” followed his conquest of Ireland. Millions of acres of land were allocated to English Protestant settlers. The landowners of Irish birth were either killed, banished or forced out to Connaught in the west of Ireland, where it was hoped “they would starve to death.” (J. M., The Way of the Aggressor, p. 20.)

From 1649 to 1652, one-third of Catholic Ireland, about 660,000 people were killed. Twenty thousand Irish boys and girls also were sold into slavery to the West Indies. (F. H., Cromwell, p. 149.) It was a deliberate Protestant attempt at Catholic genocide. Many scholars today call it an attempt at ethnic cleansing.

In Sweden, Catholic land and churches were seized by the crown. In many countries Catholic Bibles were taken and burned. Huguenots butchered Catholics by tearing out their bowels, burning them, hacking up children, priests’ genitals were cut off, grilled and fed to them.

Continued........

 

[CovenantPromise]

Persecution of Catholics by Huguenots

Frightful Outrages perpetrated by the Huguenots in France
Engraving from Richard Verstegen, Théâtre des Cruautez des
Folger Shakespeare Library, Washington, D.C. (3)


Rousseau says truly:
"The Reformation was intolerant from its cradle, and its authors were universal persecutors . . ."

Auguste Comte also writes:

"The intolerance of Protestantism was certainly not less tyrannical than that with which Catholicism is so much reproached." (Philosophie Positive, IV, 51)

1789 French Revolution
One of the aims of the revolution was the destruction of the Catholic Church. The persecution and death was vicious. Some French historians call it French Catholic genocide.

Austria and America had strong anti-Catholic laws and sentiments but no persecution.

1845
Irish Catholic Holocaust --- 5-8 Million died because of anti-catholic bigotry. Starved to death by Anglican England.

I will stop here.... Catholic martyrdom continued in the millions, but not at the hands of Protestants.

Conclusion:

The story of the Reformation has been one-sided. Big bad Catholic Church meets godly punishment for her theological crimes and martyrdom of people who dared to disagree with her. Reformation sets people free. Yet author of a huge 16 volume history of Germany, Johannes Janssen, records that the Protestants weren’t near as religiously-oriented as claimed. Among the reformers, “Cursing and blaspheming were as frequent as praying was rare.” Many scholars realize that the Reformation was really a manipulation of Christians by the government.

“Those who think the Protestant Reformation threw off the yoke of tyrannical church leaders and restored a New Testament church must realize that not Scripture but a sacralized king was in charge of the English Reformation from start to finish.”

“The principle which the Reformation had upheld in the youth of its rebellion - the right of private judgment - was as completely rejected by the Protestant leaders as by the Catholics . . . Toleration was now definitely less after the Reformation than before it.” (Will Durant)

[On the Reformers] “It required no great sagacity to perceive the inconsistency and dishonesty of men who, dissenting from almost all Christendom, would suffer none to dissent from themselves, who demanded freedom of conscience, yet refused to grant it.” (Protestant scholar Thomas Macaulay, Babington, Essays)

Luther’s right-hand man, Melanchthon, once penned, “All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation.” (Melanchthon, Philip, Epistles, Book 4, Ep. 100.)


Enough? Okay... enough.
Let all kiss and make up.

Today’s Protestants have nothing to do with what took place just as much as Catholics have nothing to do with what others in the past did. They didn’t torture or murder anyone .And I hope through the lessons of the past it will never happen again . Please Lord , forgive the hatred of today between the two. You would think it would be clear to those looking back , that neither group , who did what was done, were even Christian . A follower of Christ acts like Christ. I would say the TRUE victims were those who were Truly Christian, who died at the hands of evil men of both denominations. I argue, were they even Christian, those who did the evil they did or simply those of the devil who creates division?

With that, now can you both just move forward and heal, and live as Christ taught? Obviously those who did what they did, only used Christ's name but never did anything in His name. For Christ came as the Prince of peace and told us to love or enemies, which means, do not repay them with evil , but turn the other check if someone strikes you on the one. Our weapons are not carnal but are prayer and sacrifice. All must heal from all these horrors and start to love each other. Consider others greater than yourselves. Respect each other. We can all agree upon that I hope. And be of one mind as is Christ's intention. satan has been working over time through men who do not abide in Christ.

Philippians 2:2-4
One in Christ

…2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being united in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or empty pride, but in humility consider others more important than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.…

All that has transpired between the two is based on a power struggle to be the Superior one. That is not Godly but devilish ambition. Each should bring to the table their doctrines and glean through them all and acknowledge any truth which has proceeded from the other. The hierarchy of the Catholic assembly, an assembly Luther was a monk in did wrong. They should have shown consideration for his person . They should have considered their own actions which were against Christian doctrine . Instead they rejected him and labeled Luther a heretic and apostate and excommunicated him. But based on Christ's teaching they were the ones who FIRST stood condemned. But since they were so puffed up with pride, greed and arrogance the WOE, concerning the rise of Protestantism is upon them . They
created the scandal to begin with.

Moving forward......
With Luther's spiral down the hole of not forgiving, he became as bad as his mother and sought to outdo her harlotry with his own. The movement was not a HOLY one but one of unholy vengeance. A vengeance which evolved into removing important books of Christian study, and the removal of reverence for the mother of Christ for most of Protestantism . Many sects removed all of the Rites and altars, that Hebrews instituted. Also irreverence for the the Supper of the Lord , known as the Eucharist in the gentile churches is not a good outcome!
Shalom, Shulam
The Spirit and the Bride say come!
God Bless!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Soooo, your analogy is a fail.

Within 3 months Luther made a Public Announcement To the Church of the Selling of Indulgences...and you implying the pope was oblivious to the facts is laughable.

Glory to God,
Taken

Ahhhh - but there's where you're wrong because you don't do your homework.

Although the abuses that Luther objected to may have been unknown to the Pope at the time - abuses HAD occurred previously - and had been dealt with successfully. When the Church finally decided that charitable donations were no longer accepted as a cause for Indulgences in the 16th century - it was to put a definite stop to ALL future abuses. The "rotten apples" had finally spoiled it for everybody.

 

[CovenantPromise]

Funny how you revisionists think.
I've heard this lie repeated so many times over the years even I almost believed it - until I did my homework.
Luther wasn't condemned for his "objections". By the way - his so-called, "99 Theses" were NOT all objections. SOME of them were agreements with the Church.

Luther was condemned for the things he said and did shortly AFTER Nov. 1, 1517. Here are some of the quotes that got him in trouble with the Church - and rightly so. . .

“If I, Dr. Luther, had thought that all the Papists together were capable of translating even one passage of Scripture correctly and well, I would have gathered up enough humility to ask for their aid and assistance in translating the New Testament into German.”

“If your Papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word "alone" (sola), say this to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so and he says that a papist and an ass are the same thing’.”

“Please do not give these asses any other answer to their useless braying about that word "sola" than simply ‘Luther will have it so, and he says that he is a doctor above all the papal doctors’."

“I know quite well how much skill, hard work, understanding and intelligence is needed for a good translation. They know it less than even the miller's donkey for they have never tried it."

“You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone is not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek”


And finally, he admitted adding the word 'alone' to Rom. 3:28 of his own volition:

“If your Papist annoys you with the word ('alone'), tell him straightway, ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so’: Papist and ass are one and the same thing. Whoever will not have my translation, let him give it the go-by: the devil's thanks to him who censures it without my will and knowledge. Luther will have it so, and he is a doctor above all the doctors in Popedom.” (Amic. Discussion, 1, 127,'The Facts About Luther,' O'Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 201.)

THIS is why he got into trouble.

As to your revisionism - wasn't it Hitler's Minister of Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels that said, "Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth"??

Luther sinned as did the Catholic hierarchy against God and God alone . But since you call your assembly "The Church" did your forefathers get into trouble with the "church" on earth? NO! But if men are in the True original church the scriptures would be the stepping off point for all actions. For it is God who draws the line and sets the measure. Humility is not some peoples forte. All were an affront to the rule of God for the church.
Psalm 51:
Create in Me a Clean Heart, O God
…3For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me. 4Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, so that You may be found just when You speak and blameless when You judge. 5Surely I was brought forth in iniquity; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.…

 

[CovenantPromise]

Even the Catholics are not above the New Song. Some are called out of there to preach it but in no way is that assembly above it and without flaws. The Rev.14 are. They have been redeemed from out of Nations that means out of gentiles. They are given a New Song. It is simply the eternal gospel. That means it is not a wrap!Growth in God is as eternal as the gospel. And there is no truth in showing partiality toward men. If one seeks to teach in righteousness one has to commit to not being bias in judgement. Each favors his own denomination. And does not speak simply for the sake of truth . each fully aligns to his or respective denomination right or wrong. The end result is stagnation . Blind obedience is to God alone!

 

[Philip James]

Many scholars realize that the Reformation was really a manipulation of Christians by the government

Why do the nations protest and the peoples grumble in vain?

Kings on earth rise up and princes plot together against the LORD and his anointed:

"Let us break their shackles and cast off their chains!"

 

[epostle]

Not until 50 years later was the Selling of Indulgences Abolished.
Council of Trent 1567.
Glory to God,
Taken

453 years later and you can't stop complaining about it.

Myth 3: A person can “buy forgiveness” with indulgences.
The definition of indulgences presupposes that forgiveness has already taken place: “An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven” (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1, emphasis added). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.

Myth 4: Indulgences were invented as a means for the Church to raise money.
Indulgences developed from reflection on the sacrament of reconciliation. They are a way of shortening the penance of sacramental discipline and were in use centuries before money-related problems appeared.

Myths about Indulgences

 

[epostle]

Do you know, you will make no headway in righteousness upholding Luther as your foundation? Just as Catholics will not by upholding their bad players. They too cannot excuse the past bad actions of their denomination nor uphold any actions in heresy.

We Catholics don't make excuses for bad players, and we are entitled to defend against lies and distortions, which falls on deaf ears.

 

[epostle]

Sell - give or hand over (something) in exchange for money
Answering questions is your failure, not mine.
"In the spring of 1515 the exchequer was empty and Leo never recovered from his financial embarrassment. Various doubtful and reprehensible methods were resorted to for raising money. He created new offices and dignities, and the most exalted places were put up for sale. Jubilees and indulgenceswere degraded almost entirely into financial transactions, yet without avail, as the treasury was ruined."

"..Rome permitted him to have preached in his territory the plenary indulgencepromised all those who contributed to the new St. Peter's; he was allowed to keep one half the returns, a transaction which brought dishonour on all concerned in it. Added to this, abuses occurred during the preaching of the Indulgence. The money contributions, a mere accessory, were frequently the chief object, and the "Indulgences for the Dead" became a vehicle of inadmissible teachings. That Leo X, in the most serious of all the crises which threatened the Church, should fail to prove the proper guide for her, is clear enough from what has been related above. He recognized neither the gravity of the situation nor the underlying causes of the revolt. Vigorous measures of reform might have proved an efficacious antidote, but the pope was deeply entangled in political affairs and allowed the imperial election to overshadow the revolt of Luther; moreover, he gave himself up unrestrainedly to his pleasures and failed to grasp fully the duties of his high office."

Source: newadvent.org encyclopedia
Exurbs

Glory to God,
Taken

If Martin Luther did not suffer from severe bipolar manic-depressant illness with frank psychosis during his periods of mania, he would never have invented a purely formal definition of 'righteousness' that was evacuated of all moral content and inspired millions of others to settle for a sub-Christian notion of discipleship…
Luther lived with his paramour for 1 1/2 years before marrying her. He was complicit in the bigamy of Philip of Hess. He encouraged gangs of thugs to invade convents and rape the nuns therein.

If Zwingli the priest had not been a sex crazed rogue who seduced the young women in his congregation... and frequented prostitutes...

If Calvin had not been an egomaniac who had murderous intent towards anyone who disagreed with him and in fact executed many people under horrendous conditions. he treated the Genevans so badly that they through him out of town, but in the social chaos that ensued they invited him back so he could use his form of dictatorial repression to stabilize the social disaster the 'reform' had created. And there are the credible charges of his own private vices.

If Knox had not been part of the assassination team that murdered Cardinal Beaton...

Cranmer was Henry's foil to destroy the Church. He had a secret wife in Germany while he pretended to be a celibate priest.

All in all they were total moral reprobates and hypocrites. Forgive me for not finding them worthy to challenge Historic Christianity, especially when their false doctrines were at the service of their personal vices.
The faults of the so-called "reformers" are central to their apostasy.

Pope Leo X's misplaced priorities pales in comparison to the moral failings of the 'reformers'.

 

[CovenantPromise]

We Catholics don't make excuses for bad players, and we are entitled to defend against lies and distortions, which falls on deaf ears.

Who is lying?

 

[epostle]

Who is lying?

The ones who stubbornly stick to myths.
Myths about Indulgences

 

[Taken]

Do you know, you will make no headway in righteousness upholding Luther as your foundation?

Where did you come up with that notion for me?
Luther is not my foundation, nor Have I ever claimed he is.
I Read, study and Believe Scripture and thereafter discovered some of my beliefs and Luthers beliefs are the same....that hardly makes him my foundation!

Just as Catholics will not by upholding their bad players.
They too cannot excuse the past bad actions of their denomination nor uphold any actions in heresy.

Excuse actions?...uh I don't think they can acknowledge them.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Funny how you revisionists think.
I've heard this lie repeated so many times over the years even I almost believed it - until I did my homework.
Luther wasn't condemned for his "objections". By the way - his so-called, "99 Theses" were NOT all objections. SOME of them were agreements with the Church.

Luther was condemned for the things he said and did shortly AFTER Nov. 1, 1517. Here are some of the quotes that got him in trouble with the Church - and rightly so. . .



“If I, Dr. Luther, had thought that all the Papists together were capable of translating even one passage of Scripture correctly and well, I would have gathered up enough humility to ask for their aid and assistance in translating the New Testament into German.”

“If your Papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word "alone" (sola), say this to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so and he says that a papist and an ass are the same thing’.”

“Please do not give these asses any other answer to their useless braying about that word "sola" than simply ‘Luther will have it so, and he says that he is a doctor above all the papal doctors’."

“I know quite well how much skill, hard work, understanding and intelligence is needed for a good translation. They know it less than even the miller's donkey for they have never tried it."

“You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone is not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek”


And finally, he admitted adding the word 'alone' to Rom. 3:28 of his own volition:

“If your Papist annoys you with the word ('alone'), tell him straightway, ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so’: Papist and ass are one and the same thing. Whoever will not have my translation, let him give it the go-by: the devil's thanks to him who censures it without my will and knowledge. Luther will have it so, and he is a doctor above all the doctors in Popedom.” (Amic. Discussion, 1, 127,'The Facts About Luther,' O'Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 201.)

THIS is why he got into trouble.

As to your revisionism - wasn't it Hitler's Minister of Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels that said, "Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth"??

 

[Taken]

Funny how you revisionists think.

Funny how you Catholics think. LOL

I've heard this lie repeated so many times over the years even I almost believed it - until I did my homework.

Thanks for sharing, if YOU HEAR something repeated over and over, YOU are likely to Believe it....pretty sure that is a highly effective method the Catholics USE in their teaching....Repeat, Repeat, Repeat, prayers. from a young age, Daily.

Luther was condemned for the things he said and did shortly AFTER Nov. 1, 1517. Here are some of the quotes that got him in trouble with the Church - and rightly so. . .

Rightly so...a heathen...
Repeat, Repeat, Repeat...

Matt 6
[7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as theheathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Luther was excommunicated and called a heretic For NOT recanting his claims.

And FYI the door swung both ways as the pope himself had some choice unflattering comments about Luther.

[/QUOTE]“ word 'alone' to Rom. 3:28 of his own volition: [/QUOTE].

Luther didn't add to Scripture.
In CONTEXT, Luther Disagreed that Faith WITHOUT Works Is sufficient to receive Salvation.

Rom 3:28 is one verifying Scripture.

Rom 3:28
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In CONTEXT, Catholics teach Faith AND Works are necessary to Receive Salvation.

In CONTEXT, Luther speaking to a Catholics claim...by Luther saying Faith Alone...was excluding and saying Without Works a man Could receive Salvation...

Scripture is clear....

A mans reasonable service is repentance, belief and heartfelt commitment...To receive from the Lord a Conversion, and at the Lords return, what the Lord sees is a Converted man.

Works? Nada.

Rom 12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Works?? Are NOT parts of a requirement to receive Salvation.

Works Are within the category of Rewards, NOT Salvation.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[CovenantPromise]

The ones who stubbornly stick to myths.
Myths about Indulgences

It is no myth . The "myth" is in one allowing for those with, to have special consideration . I call it a myth because it is not based in the realty of Truth! If
you are claiming that hierarchy did not mislead concerning indulgences then you have bought that myth and drank it like Kool-Aid . " Love covers up a multitude of sins". That was taken advantage of by the RCC but was primarily emphasized toward those with money. They promoted love of mother church. The more love you showed her (by giving money) the more "spiritual gifts" she extended to you in the form of clemency .

They were as Isaiah said and this still is so today for many:
Isaiah 29:13
Therefore the Lord said: "These people draw near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. Their worship of Me is but rules taught by men.

So those (with), felt the more they gave the more sins were forgiven. It became like what the Jews would do. They began to not sincerely repent. They felt I will make a sacrifice and my sins will be forgiven. Yet they just kept on sinning and felt that the blood of bulls and goats would make it a wash. That is what the RCC is guilty of encouraging. The money of the haves became justification. And that money went to the vanity of the Harlot. The hierarchy did / does a lot of shmoozing for gain.
Isaiah 55:
An Invitation to Abundant Life
55 “Ho, every one who thirsts,
come to the waters;
and he who has no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread,
and your labor for that which does not satisfy?
Hearken diligently to me, and eat what is good,
and delight yourselves in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come to me;
hear, that your soul may live;
and I will make with you an everlasting covenant,
my steadfast, sure love for David.
This is NOT what was being conveyed to the wealthy,nor then to the poor who felt they weren't giving enough! This form of love that was encouraged , the taking advantage of Charity , is not the Charity of the heart. Worse than that, the money was not used for helping the needy of the Body, of the Body of Christ. People can pedal all the nonsense they want, they can deny all they want.
The RCC is about spin . They did it with the message of Fatima , they did with the falsely defined Title of Immaculate Conception, not that , that title is wrong but the definition called a Dogma is. They continuously spin all Jorge Bergoglio's comments. They put a lot of things through their spin cycle. The best one is, the Pope knew nothing about the abuses . The abuse was of this tenet : 1 Peter 4: 7-9 Living for God's Glory
…7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray. 8Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9Show hospitality to one another without complaining.… the more "love" you showed (MONEY) was a gesture in showing the Mother Harlot hospitality.
Speak a lie long enough to people and they will take it as truth!

There are two Mothers revealed over the assemble of Rome. The Mother harlot over her children who are like Cain, and Mother Mary who has produced loyal , faithful devotion people who are ABLE to give from the heart. They have always been persecuted by the Cains , even murdered!

Mother Mary was set up as one to be greeted by the Roman body from the beginning by Paul.
Romans 16:6
6Greet Mary, who has worked very hard for you.

In the Greek Septuagint it is word like this:
"Greet Miryam who has labored much for us all "
It is the only Hebrew name mentioned in Paul's letter to the Romans. And the only woman who has labored for ALL is Mother Miryam. For in laboring for Christ in her calling as the Theotokos , she labored and bore all who are to be born again of Christ. In his birth is the birth of all who will be the nation-kingdom of Israel brought in through the New Covenant. She brought us forth under the Apple Tree- Israel. It is under the influence of Israel that the gentile has come to know the One true God! She was set up from the very beginning as a visitor of souls for the Roman church. However, soon after the Harlot spirit entered the hearts of men through their empty pride and selfish ambition and greed! The spirit of harlotry is satan's answer to the TRUE VIRGIN BRIDE of Christ conceived and preserved in Wisdom -the Mother of the Lord.

Song of Solomon:
5Who is this coming up from the wilderness, leaning on her beloved? I roused you under the apple tree (Under the influence of Israel); there your mother conceived you( In conceiving Christ she conceived all who are to be born again), there she travailed and brought you forth (Mother Miryam brought forth the Savior and all who would be saved). 6Set me as a seal over your heart (Mother Miryam), as a seal upon your arm (Mother Miryam). For love is as strong as death, its jealousy as unrelenting as Sheol. Its sparks are fiery flames, the fiercest blaze of all.…

2 Corinthians 11:1-3
Paul and the False Apostles
1I hope you will bear with a little of my foolishness, but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.…

This can not happen for the many that are in union with false apostles and have many husbands because they cling to false doctrines. They are therefore, defiled like Eve and not a Pure Chaste virgin Like Mother Miryam in spirit. That is why the sign of Emmanuel is so important.

God Bless!

 

[Taken]

Although the abuses that Luther objected to may have been unknown to the Pope at the time -

yet highly unlikely.

abuses HAD occurred previously -

Correct. selling of indulgences had occurred and were banned...but yet the practice somewhat continued...THEN flourished .... due to circumstances of debt in the Vatican, Alberts debt and the desire to raise money for the construction of a new st Peters Church and grand artworks.

and had been dealt with successfully.

Banning DID NOT eradicate selling of indulgences.
Outlawing of selling indulgences occurred 50 years after Luthers challenge.

Something was going on in that 50 years...during construction phase, paying for artworks, relieving the popes debts, receiving Alberts debts.

When the Church finally decided that charitable donations were no longer accepted as a cause for Indulgences in the 16th century - it was to put a definite stop to ALL future abuses. The "rotten apples" had finally spoiled it for everybody.

Your theory works out as Luther being the bad guy for exposing the Sales And Tetzel being the bad guy for selling the indulgences...

Yet the money From the sales got passed along to Albert and the Vatican...

Do you think the "Rotten Apples" included The archbishop Albert and pope LeoX ?

50 years after the fact? Continued construction and buying artworks with corrupt funds ...bother you?

Glory to God,
Taken