The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[tabletalk]

Please initially respond to these 13 question on the basis of your best instincts rather than from what you perceive the Bible to teach. Subsequently, I will address all 13 questions from a biblical perspective and then you will be encouraged to respond to the cited biblical texts. The questions are relevant to the debate over universal salvation, but this thread is only intended to apply them to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and, more broadly, to the question of ultimate release from Hell. And no, I'm not a Catholic; I'm an Evangelical.

13 PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE POST-MORTEM STATE OF THE DAMMED:

(1) At the moment of postmortem survival, do we retain the same basic moral character that we developed in this life?
(2) Would many carnal Christians be unable to live in a sin-free heavenly realm?
(3) Does Jesus' principle that like attracts like in the afterlife make many professing Christians unsuitable company for the saints in Heaven?
(4) Might not Hell be a realm of both reformative justice and retributive justice?
(5) Because of their secular upbringing or negative life experience, millions of people have heard the Gospel with no conviction that it is true. Is it just to send them to eternal conscious torment because their spiritual intuition is fatally flawed?
(6) Can anyone do enough in our brief sojourn on Earth to merit eternal conscious torment with no chance of postmortem redemption?
(7) If there are multiple Heavens and Hells with different levels, might not continual progress be made from one level to another?
(8) How does the concept of pure unconditional divine love apply to those in eternal conscious postmortem torment?
(9) If denizens of Hell sincerely wanted to repent, rise into God's loving presence, and be spiritually transformed, would a loving God deny them that opportunity?
(10) What keeps sinners in Hell--God, Satan, or the sinners themselves?
(11) Shall the will of an omnipotent God to save everyone be eternally thwarted?
(12) Is it reasonable to assume that no soul retrievals from Hell would ever be attempted?
(13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?

"...your best instincts rather than from what you perceive the Bible to teach."
Christians aren't supposed to do that.

 

[CovenantPromise]

There is always a difference between Carnal Understanding and Spiritual Understanding. You repeatedly attempt to argue a point with your Carnal Understanding which is of no interest to me.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken, I am not sure if that paper plate with a face on it that you use as your avatar speaks to your approach to truth. Obviously there are some missteps in Catholicism, but not in foundational doctrine. Some of its doctrine which has been attached to the foundational doctrine is off. However, in Protestantism the foundation is not even upheld. The Christians in Catholicism have preserved the fundamentals that the western world needs to appreciate. Those who are to grow further, will. There are many revelations being reserved for the Elect of them. That means further growth and greater understanding and correction. Because they get the essentials, they will be given more. The Elect of them will and are being given the End Time Wine.

 

[CovenantPromise]

ONE more time:
Jesus prayed repetitiously (Matt. 26:44).
The Angels in Heaven pray repetitiously (Rev. 4:8).
Catholics pray repetitiously.

NO difference, Einstein . . .

True.

 

[Taken]

Nobody is stressing repetitiveness, we are defending good repetitious prayer

NOT stressing? ARE defending?

And the word "good" not before mentioned, now "included" in BOL's "defense"?

Perhaps you could give a Scriptural example of:

A "bad"" repetitive prayer.
And:
A "good" repetitive prayer.

Those who condemn good repetitious prayer

WHO has stated the difference?
WHO has "condemned" "Good" repetitious prayer?

dichotomize it with bad repetitious prayer and they do that out of VANITY and ignorance of Scripture.

Sounds like a supposed predisposition without the Good and Bad prayer you mention being defined.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[epostle]

13 PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE POST-MORTEM STATE OF THE DAMMED:

(1) At the moment of postmortem survival, do we retain the same basic moral character that we developed in this life?

Good moral character (gold)is retained, imperfect moral character is burned off by God's love, not His wrath.

(2) Would many carnal Christians be unable to live in a sin-free heavenly realm?

Yes, but they are happy because they know their ultimate destination, which is heaven.

(3) Does Jesus' principle that like attracts like in the afterlife make many professing Christians unsuitable company for the saints in Heaven?

Yes, for a time.

(4) Might not Hell be a realm of both reformative justice and retributive justice?

People send themselves to hell, it's not God's doing.

(5) Because of their secular upbringing or negative life experience, millions of people have heard the Gospel with no conviction that it is true. Is it just to send them to eternal conscious torment because their spiritual intuition is fatally flawed?

"Hearing the Gospel with no conviction that it is true" is not the same as flat out rejection.

(6) Can anyone do enough in our brief sojourn on Earth to merit eternal conscious torment with no chance of postmortem redemption?

Yes.

(7) If there are multiple Heavens and Hells with different levels, might not continual progress be made from one level to another?

Continual progress, yes. But once one is in hell, there is no continual progress.

(8) How does the concept of pure unconditional divine love apply to those in eternal conscious postmortem torment?

Fire is a metaphor for unconditional divine love. God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell). It's the same fire.

(9) If denizens of Hell sincerely wanted to repent, rise into God's loving presence, and be spiritually transformed, would a loving God deny them that opportunity?

Denizens of Hell are in a fixed state and are unable to repent.

(10) What keeps sinners in Hell--God, Satan, or the sinners themselves?

The sinners themselves.

(11) Shall the will of an omnipotent God to save everyone be eternally thwarted?

That doesn't mean God's desire to draw all men to Himself is thwarted.

(12) Is it reasonable to assume that no soul retrievals from Hell would ever be attempted?

Yes.

(13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?

That presupposes what heaven is really like.

"...your best instincts rather than from what you perceive the Bible to teach."
Christians aren't supposed to do that.

Christians have the freedom to think. If a book can think for you then you have no freedom. God gave us a Church to PROTECT our freedom.

 

[epostle]

 

[epostle]

 

[Taken]

Taken, I am not sure if that paper plate with a face on it that you use as your avatar speaks to your approach to truth.

Are you looking for a persons approach to TRUTH in an Avatar?
If so, I would suggest that is a fail.

Obviously there are some missteps in Catholicism, but not in foundational doctrine.

I would add the Foundational Doctrine came from Jesus forward to Jews, whom Jesus selected, and thereafter to the whole world, (the Twelve Tribes of Israel AND the Gentiles)

Some of its (Catholic) doctrine which has been attached to the foundational doctrine is off.

( Some, ie a partcial)...Agree.

However, in Protestantism the foundation is not even upheld.

( Not even, ie an absolution of none upholding)...Disagree.

The Christians in Catholicism have preserved the fundamentals that the western world needs to appreciate.

I can appreciate any mans effort to preserve the TRUTH Jesus Himself set forth.
I find no issue with disagreeing with unScriptural Doctrine "introduced" by men.

Those who are to grow further, will. There are many revelations being reserved for the Elect of them. That means further growth and greater understanding and correction. Because they get the essentials, they will be given more. The Elect of them will and are being given the End Time Wine.

I am well aware with the intent of Jesus' Doctrine...as well as...manmade doctrine.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

That’s a flawed understanding of Purgatory.

Purgatory is not where you get to “work off” your sins. It is a state of Final Purification of the elect.

Purgatory is not "WHERE" (you work off sins)?

But then "WHERE" is Purgatory?

Purgatory is a "STATE" of "final purification"?

But then "WHERE" does this final purification take place?

And If this is the FINAL purification....WHEN and WHERE and WHAT was the "purification" BEFORE the "final purification".

What exactly WAS "first purified" and HOW?

Why did the "first purification" FAIL, that a "final" purification is required?

Rev. 21:27

says that NOTHING impure or imperfect can enter Heaven. How many “perfectly pure” people do YOU know?

How many "perfectly pure" PEOPLE people do "I" know?

Perfectly pure .... perfectly PERFECTED.

Many who have Become "CONVERTED"...and "PERFECTED" and "MADE WHOLE".

Souls of "Converted" people "enter Heaven":
...BY LEAVING their physically DEAD body, and going "UP" to Heaven.
Spirits of "Converted" people "enter Heaven".
...BY LEAVING their physically DEAD body,
And going "UP" to Heaven.
Bodies of "Converted" people WAIT "on Earth" to be "RAISED" "on Earth" in GLORY. <---- Bodies DO NOT "GO UP TO Heaven".

Purgatory is only possible because of Christ’s finished work on the cross – not in spite of it.

Conversion of a man, WHILE ALIVE IN HIS FLESH BODY, is only possible Because of Jesus' OFFERING of His Flesh Body.

And make NO mistake – Purgatory IS a Biblical doctrine.

Make no mistake...Jesus PROVIDED a "WAY", for Every man ALIVE in his "CORRUPT"
BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT....to Become Converted, and MADE SPIRITUALLY "WHOLE".

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Who originally created this diagram?
And When?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Enoch111]

Christians have the freedom to think.

Not if they are in a cult.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Purgatory is not "WHERE" (you work off sins)?

But then "WHERE" is Purgatory?

Purgatory is a "STATE" of "final purification"?

But then "WHERE" does this final purification take place?

And If this is the FINAL purification....WHEN and WHERE and WHAT was the "purification" BEFORE the "final purification".

What exactly WAS "first purified" and HOW?

Why did the "first purification" FAIL, that a "final" purification is required?

How many "perfectly pure" PEOPLE people do "I" know?

Perfectly pure .... perfectly PERFECTED.

Many who have Become "CONVERTED"...and "PERFECTED" and "MADE WHOLE".

Souls of "Converted" people "enter Heaven":
...BY LEAVING their physically DEAD body, and going "UP" to Heaven.
Spirits of "Converted" people "enter Heaven".
...BY LEAVING their physically DEAD body,
And going "UP" to Heaven.
Bodies of "Converted" people WAIT "on Earth" to be "RAISED" "on Earth" in GLORY. <---- Bodies DO NOT "GO UP TO Heaven".

Conversion of a man, WHILE ALIVE IN HIS FLESH BODY, is only possible Because of Jesus' OFFERING of His Flesh Body.
Make no mistake...Jesus PROVIDED a "WAY", for Every man ALIVE in his "CORRUPT"
BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT....to Become Converted, and MADE SPIRITUALLY "WHOLE".

Glory to God,
Taken

As I have stated repeatedly – where and how Purgatory happens is a mystery.
It can’t take place in Heaven because there is suffering.
It can’t take place in Hell because the person is eventually saved.
For that matter – WHERE is Heaven?? WHERE is Hell??

As for your nonsense that you are already perfect – the Bible disagrees with you . . .

Matt.5:48
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Heb 12:22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Phil. 3:12
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

Romans 3:10
As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

 

[epostle]

Who originally created this diagram?
And When?

Glory to God,
Taken

The concepts of the diagram originated in Judaism. You can deny the inspiration of 7 books all day, it makes no difference to me. But in the process, you deny the facts of Judaic history, which is precisely where you stumble.

A Christian who dies in a state of sanctifying grace goes straight to heaven. But you lean too heavily on that truth, and assume that all "true believers" die in such a perfect state. Common sense says that can't be true. JBFA does not cover the consequences of sin. "Faith alone" (in the absence of hope and love) does not reconcile God's mercy with God's justice. JBFA is based on one man's opinion to eliminate final purification after death, which is doctrinally anti-Semitic. That's why Luther invented it. JBFA covers the consequences of sin with a paint job. It denies God's justice. That is a problem you guys have never resolved. Purgatory is the meeting point of God's mercy and justice without making God blind.(an absurd and unbiblical viewpoint).

 

[Taken]

As I have stated repeatedly – where and how Purgatory happens is a mystery.
It can’t take place in Heaven because there is suffering.
It can’t take place in Hell because the person is eventually saved.

"By, through, in, Purgatory the person is............. Eventually Saved"?

In one claim you say a soul in "Purgatory" is already "saved" and now you say in "Purgatory" the person is "eventually" saved.

I disagree with your teaching.

BEFORE a mans PHYSICAL DEATH;
SOME MEN, BECOME "MADE" "WHOLE", by the POWER of God.

Their BODY given unto death, crucified with Christ.
Their BODY, cleansed in The BLOOD of JESUS. Their BODY, forgiven and SINS COVERED with the LIGHT of CHRST.
Their BODY, sanctified by The AUTHORITY and POWER of CHRIST.
Their BODY KEPT "WITH" Christ Jesus.

Their SOUL RESTORED and SAVED unto the Lord God.

Their SPIRIT QUICKENED, BORN AGAIN of the SEED OF GOD.

YET you teach, The POWER of God WITHIN SUCH A MAN, is NOT ENOUGH, and such a man "REQUIRES" going to some mysterious unknown place or state of being FOR the Lord TO "DO WHAT"? AS YOU SAY...

eventually SAVE the MAN

.

THE MYSTERY of a SOUL "WAITING" for SALVATION, is "APPLICABLE" to "OT" men.
"THEY" knew "THEIR" soul DEPARTED a physically DEAD BODY.
"THEY" knew "THEIR" soul "WAITED" to BECOME SAVED "BY" "THEIR" MESSIAH SAVIOR, THAT "THEY" waited FOR "IN" comfort, "WITH" Abraham.

THE MYSTERY has BEEN REVEALED.
THE CHRIST MESSIAH SAVIOR has BEEN REVEALED.
SALVATION is COME, "TO" "THEM" who Trust to BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST and ACCEPT His OFFERING OF SALVATION!

Scripture TEACHES the Lords Work "IN" a physically alive (HEARTFULLY BELIEVING) man (WHO SURRENDERS His LIFE TO THE Lord)...
THE Lord Himself....(BY His POWER and AUTHORITY, MAKES the MAN A WHOLE NEW CREATURE...
BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT....
AND
The OLD DEAD physical body (lying, rotting in an earthen grave) SHALL BE RAISED IN GLORY....ON THE DAY OF HIS CHOOSING.

TEACHING the OT WAY "STILL" Applies, (is a FAIL) "AFTER" JESUS arrived ON EARTH and TAUGHT; A man can BECOME a NEW CREATURE, (BEFORE the mans PHYSICAL DEATH)...AND JESUS "IS" the "WAY" for the WHOLENESS of a man TO BECOME ACCOMPLISHED!

For that matter – WHERE is Heaven??

The Firmament is UP and OUTSIDE of Earths Atmosphere.

Gen 1

1. [7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
2. [8] And God called the firmament Heaven.

WHERE

is Hell??

Hell is DOWN in the center of the Earth.

Ezek 26:

[20] When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth,...

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

As for your nonsense that you are already perfect – the Bible disagrees with you . . .

No it does not.

PER "your Usual", you are without Understanding.

Heb 10:14

[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Obviously you are UNaware WHO is sanctified and WHO is not.

Matt.5:48
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Correct. And I chose to be MADE PERFECTED "IN" Christ.
The "MUST BE"...is Accomplished IN ME.

Different FROM YOU, since you were TAUGHT, "YOU" didn't have to MAKE that CHOICE....that "YOU" could become "(soul) saved and (spirit) born again....
Because SOMEONE ELSE, (other than YOU) made that "CHOICE FOR YOU".

Heb 12:22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

No, "I" did not go to Mount Zion. Yet I have come TO GOD, in spirit, AFTER Christ, QUICKENED MY "spirit" with Gods SEED. And YES, MY "spirit" IS thus "MADE" righteous and perfected.

Phil. 3:12

Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

Correct..."he" "HAD NOT YET" nor "HAVE" "I" "YET" ...... obtained "THIS" ...

You OBVIOUSLY IGNORE "WHAT" THIS is...

"THIS IS" the "RESURRECTION" of the BODY.

Just as Phil 3:11 notifies the reader.

Phil 3:
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

"THE PERFECTION of a NEW BODY" is the BODY being RAISED "IN GLORY", "IN IMMORTALITY".

Duh, that has NOT YET OCCURRED!
It is the MORTAL BODY THAT HAS BEEN PERFECTED..."SANCTIFIED".

The RAISING UP of the IMMORTAL BODY, has NOT YET OCCURRED!

Romans 3:10

As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:10
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

YET AGAIN...per YOUR USUAL... you read...and UNDERSTAND Scripture AS IF, EVERY WORD APPLIES TO "EVERYONE".

YET AGAIN...per YOUR USUAL, Unknowing the difference between "THEM" not IN Christ and "THOSE" IN Christ. "THEY" who know NOT Peace and "THOSE" IN Christ.

CLEARLY Romans Differenciates BETWEEN...
The TEACHER speaking WHO IS "IN" Christ....and THEM "NOT IN Christ".

NONE IS RIGHTEOUS...WHO IS "THEM" NOT "IN CHRIST"!

You Fail to pay attention or understand "APPLICATION", to WHOM is being spoken of IN SCRIPTURE.

You KNOW NOT, WHO, "them and they" ARE, who have NOT BEEN "MADE" righteous..."OR" who "them and they" ARE who HAVE BEEN "MADE" righteous.

What I said IS, "I AM PERFECTED".
A MAN "IN" Christ "IS" PERFECTED "IN" Christ!

I am IN HARMONY with the Scriptures that APPLY to me.

You grabbing Scriptures THAT DO NOT APPLY TO OTHERS, and "Desperately" TRYING to argue "they DO APPLY to others"...
is PER YOUR OWN IGNORANCE and utter lack of Understanding. An old and boring worn out tatic.

HEB 10:
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

THEM that "ARE" sanctified...
NOT "THEM" that "ARE NOT" sanctified!!

The Scriptures that APPLY to me, DO APPLY "BECAUSE", I have chosen to "ACCEPT" the Lord's Offering....and TRUST He has MADE ME WHOLE, Sanctified and PERFECTED...."IN" Him.

I say, THE Lord offered and I accepted His offering ONCE and FOR EVER.

You say, Your parents accepted His offering FOR YOU, and now YOU have to WAIT some mysterious place called Purgatory, TO BECOME 'forever' purified/perfected, and WHILE you are WAITING, you MAY LOSE (what) he supposedly "GAVE YOU"....(by the solicitation made by your parents).

You Teach YOU CAN "GAIN" Salvation, and THEN....
LOSE Salvation:
1) BY Throwing it BACK in the Lords Face.
2) BY thereafter receiving Salvation, THEN reject the Lord.

(Utter nonsense)

I MADE "MY" own calling on the Lord, and He responded ONCE and forever TO MAKE ME WHOLLY WHOLE and acceptable unto HIM.

Yes, we disagree, and I will continue to Agree with Scripture over your Catholic traditions and teaching.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[brakelite]

What bible translation does this come from?

Dan. 3:56-88 we read the EXACT SAME PRAYER for Thirty-Two verses, which is “bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.” This is far more repetitious than a decade of the Rosary.

 

[Taken]

The concepts of the diagram originated in Judaism.

I asked you a question, you answered, (sort of). Where the "concept" originated, was not the question.

You can deny the inspiration of 7 books all day,

WHAT is WRONG WITH YOU?
WHAT is YOUR POINT of using DEVIL TATICS?
WHY are YOU SAYING I CAN "DENY" ANYTHING, when "I" have said NO SUCH THING?

THIS ^ TATIC IS nauseatingly PREVALENT with Catholics...MAKING statements "AS IF" to "IMPLY" a person has MADE A DENIAL, when they have not.

But in the process, you deny the facts of Judaic history, which is precisely where you stumble.

More of YOUR DEVIL TATICS!

"I DENY" ? When? Where is ME saying any such thing?

"I precisely stumble, BECAUSE of DENYING"?
When? Where is ME saying I DENIED anything?

YOUR TYPICAL Catholic devil tatics is but YOU making up FALSE CLAIMS and FALSE ACCUSATIONS, "as IF" I had made DENIALS......when the FACT IS, I said NO SUCH THING!

A Christian who dies in a state of sanctifying grace goes straight to heaven. But you lean too heavily on that truth,

MY "Truth" is Christ Jesus, and absolutely, I Lean ON HIM.

"A" Christian? Jesus NEVER spoke of "A" Christian going to heaven.

The Word of God speaks of;
BODY's being Sanctified and going to the grave.
SAVED souls going UP to heaven, when the body physically dies.
QUICKENED spirits going UP to heaven, when the body physically dies.

and assume that all "true believers" die in such a perfect state.

Temporary BELIEF...is not a perfected state.
Mindful BELIEF...is not a perfected state.
Heartful Belief...is not a perfected state.

HEARTFUL BELIEF... AND ..GIVING ones LIFE "TO" the Lord...is WHEN the Lord GIVES that man the GIFT of a PERFECT-ED state.

The Lord SHALL RISE UP in Immortal Glory "THAT" which BELONGS TO HIM.

If a man REJECTS "giving" his OWN LIFE to the Lord...Do you believe PRAYER will CAUSE the Lord to "TAKE" a mans LIFE unto Himself, WITHOUT THE WILL of "that man" .... but instead BECAUSE of "another mans" WILL?

Common sense says that can't be true.

Common sense? REALLY? You think "common sense" is HOW you arrive at the Understanding of "Spiritual things"?

Common sense is derived by Logical weighing of the thoughts of the Carnal MIND...

Scripture TEACHES the Carnal MIND is Against God...so WHY would you rely on your Carnal Mind to ARRIVE at the Understanding of Spiritual things?

EVERY man WILL stand before the Lord.
EVERY man WILL "BELIEVE".
EVERY man WILL "BOW DOWN To the Lord".
Yet NOT EVERY man WILL BE SAVED.

JBFA does not cover the consequences of sin. "Faith alone" (in the absence of hope and love) does not reconcile God's mercy with God's justice. JBFA is based on one man's opinion to eliminate final purification after death, which is doctrinally anti-Semitic.

Ridiculous accusation.
IF, your "one man" is a reference to Martin Luther, It is NOT, based on "one mans opinion".
It does not eliminate Hope or Love or Grace or any other thing.
It has NOTHING to do with "purification" after Death.

The basis of FAITH Alone, IS based in Scripture. FAITH is a Gift from God, OFFERED to men to "RECEIVE".
"WITHOUT" a man "receiving" Gods OFFERED gift of FAITH, a man CAN NOT "BE" WITH God.
Love, Hope, Grace, Following, etc. are ALL aspects of a man GETTING to the point TO RECEIVE Gods gift of FAITH.
A man CAN "BY HIS OWN" power, have love, hope, belief, and follow after Christ....
AND A man CAN "BY HIS OWN" power, stop loving, stop hoping, stop believing, stop following.....

THE CLIMAX and PERFECTION "ONLY" comes WHEN ...... WHEN a man BELIEVES in his HEART.....AND Gives his LIFE to the Lord.....and THEREAFTER....
"IT IS THE Lords POWER (not the mans) that FOR EVER KEEPS the man "FAITH -full" to the Lord God Almighty".

A man who is NOT "WITH" God, is by default; "AGAINST GOD".

Matt 12:
[30] He that is not with me is against me; a

That's why Luther invented it.

It was not an INVENTION! It was a realization Of Understanding. Luther challenged the Catholic teachers, and the Catholic teachers DO WHAT Catholics DO....
WHICH is simply proclaim They are RIGHT, and everyone who disagrees with THEM are WrONG, and THEN publically CALL the others names and proclaim they are OUT of the Catholic Church.

Did the Catholics PROVE, WITHOUT FAITH a man;
CAN Be saved?
CAN Be Born again?
CAN Be With God?
CAN Be In the Lords Kingdom?
CAN LOVE his enemy?
CAN KEEP his FAITH, WITHOUT Gods Power IN the man?

Luthers POINT, and Scriptures point IS...
WITHOUT FAITH, NOTHING else can come into fruition.

I, believe the same, but yet I did not "Learn" from Luther. I, LIKE Luther, Learned from Gods WORD.
You appear to express YOU Learned from Catholic Teachers...who, seemingly TAUGHT YOU to "OPPOSE" anyone who does not AGREE with men who ALSO FOLLOW Catholic teaching and tradition.

JBFA covers the consequences of sin with a paint job.

More of your devilish implications. Irrelevant!

It denies God's justice.

So you claim "Believing Gods GIFT of FAITH is DENYING Gods "JUSTICE"... What utter nonsense.

Gods JUSTICE is God "GIVING" to every man what that mans HEART DESIRES!

Apparently YOU are unaware "SOME MENS HEARTS DENY GOD", and that God GIVES THEM A "Hardened Heart", so they CAN NOT BELIEVE, "JUST", as the man desired!

"JUST" as a man WHOSE heart "DeSIRES" to believe, God "GIVES" "THEM" a New HeArt, that will FOREVER BELIEVE! And that is Accomplished "BY" Gods Giving of the GIFT of FAITH.

That is a problem you guys have

No. The problem IS, YOU THINK, "we HAVE A PROBLEM"....We are not the ones saying....oh oh, SAVED PEOPLE need our Prayers, NEED "US" to "DO GOOD DEEDS/ WORKS, ie be charitable, participate in the eucharist, attend mass, etc...........BECAUSE, (oops, Gods forgiveness didn't quite measure up, AND MAKE the ANOTHER persons SOUL, prepared to be RECEIVED unto God).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Purgatory is the meeting point of God's mercy and justice without making God blind.(an absurd and unbiblical viewpoint).

Gods "mercy" is FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT. WITHOUT Gods mercy, NO MAN could BECOME Gods "inheritance"!

Gods "mercy" Forward to: a Converted man, GIVES that man "ETERNAL" Life.

Gods "mercy" Forward to; a UNCONVERTED man, is God NEVER quickens that mans "spirit", which "IF" He did, would CAUSE that mans spirit to BE ALIVE FOREVER, "without God".

Gods "justice" is God holding to HIS TRUTH, regarding ALL men.
Gods TRUTH is: every man SHALL DIE, God requires it. Some men SHALL BE "MADE" ALIVE and Remain WITH God Forever, Some men SHALL NOT BE "MADE" Alive forever, but instead FOREVER shall be "separated" FROM God.
ALL men shall be JUDGED, and Served Justice, BY A JUST God....and is that what you think happens in some place you call "purgatory" ?

A MEETING POINT of Gods mercy and Gods justice is "some" mysterious place or thing called purgatory?

A few posts back, 'purgatory' was supposedly a "PURIFICATION" of the SAVED, now it's a meeting point of Gods mercy and Gods Justice?

What GOD DOES is JUST.
"LIKE" for example; God reveals BEFORE something will occur...and God warns of the consequence BEFORE a man does things.

"JUSTICE" becomes "SERVED" AFTER a "JUDGEMENT" and "SENTENCING".

No, I do not think there is some mysterious thing called "purgatory" .... where Gods mercy MEETS Gods justice.

... without making God blind.(an absurd and unbiblical viewpoint).

YES that is an absurd and unbiblical viewpoint....and FUNNY how that thought and written words are presented ONLY by you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

What bible translation does this come from?

Your edited Protestant Bibles stop at verse 30.
The original Bible the Jesus and the Apostles studied from goes on for another 70 verses.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No it does not.
PER "your Usual", you are without Understanding.

Heb 10:14
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Obviously you are UNaware WHO is sanctified and WHO is not.

Correct. And I chose to be MADE PERFECTED "IN" Christ.
The "MUST BE"...is Accomplished IN ME.

Different FROM YOU, since you were TAUGHT, "YOU" didn't have to MAKE that CHOICE....that "YOU" could become "(soul) saved and (spirit) born again....
Because SOMEONE ELSE, (other than YOU) made that "CHOICE FOR YOU".



No, "I" did not go to Mount Zion. Yet I have come TO GOD, in spirit, AFTER Christ, QUICKENED MY "spirit" with Gods SEED. And YES, MY "spirit" IS thus "MADE" righteous and perfected.

Correct..."he" "HAD NOT YET" nor "HAVE" "I" "YET" ...... obtained "THIS" ...
You OBVIOUSLY IGNORE "WHAT" THIS is...
"THIS IS" the "RESURRECTION" of the BODY.

Just as Phil 3:11 notifies the reader.

Phil 3:
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

"THE PERFECTION of a NEW BODY" is the BODY being RAISED "IN GLORY", "IN IMMORTALITY".

Duh, that has NOT YET OCCURRED!
It is the MORTAL BODY THAT HAS BEEN PERFECTED..."SANCTIFIED".

The RAISING UP of the IMMORTAL BODY, has NOT YET OCCURRED!

Romans 3:10
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

YET AGAIN...per YOUR USUAL... you read...and UNDERSTAND Scripture AS IF, EVERY WORD APPLIES TO "EVERYONE".

YET AGAIN...per YOUR USUAL, Unknowing the difference between "THEM" not IN Christ and "THOSE" IN Christ. "THEY" who know NOT Peace and "THOSE" IN Christ.

CLEARLY Romans Differenciates BETWEEN...
The TEACHER speaking WHO IS "IN" Christ....and THEM "NOT IN Christ".

NONE IS RIGHTEOUS...WHO IS "THEM" NOT "IN CHRIST"!

You Fail to pay attention or understand "APPLICATION", to WHOM is being spoken of IN SCRIPTURE.

You KNOW NOT, WHO, "them and they" ARE, who have NOT BEEN "MADE" righteous..."OR" who "them and they" ARE who HAVE BEEN "MADE" righteous.
What I said IS, "I AM PERFECTED".
A MAN "IN" Christ "IS" PERFECTED "IN" Christ!
I am IN HARMONY with the Scriptures that APPLY to me.

You grabbing Scriptures THAT DO NOT APPLY TO OTHERS, and "Desperately" TRYING to argue "they DO APPLY to others"...
is PER YOUR OWN IGNORANCE and utter lack of Understanding. An old and boring worn out tatic.

HEB 10:
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

THEM that "ARE" sanctified...
NOT "THEM" that "ARE NOT" sanctified!!

The Scriptures that APPLY to me, DO APPLY "BECAUSE", I have chosen to "ACCEPT" the Lord's Offering....and TRUST He has MADE ME WHOLE, Sanctified and PERFECTED...."IN" Him.

I say, THE Lord offered and I accepted His offering ONCE and FOR EVER.

You say, Your parents accepted His offering FOR YOU, and now YOU have to WAIT some mysterious place called Purgatory, TO BECOME 'forever' purified/perfected, and WHILE you are WAITING, you MAY LOSE (what) he supposedly "GAVE YOU"....(by the solicitation made by your parents).

You Teach YOU CAN "GAIN" Salvation, and THEN....
LOSE Salvation:
1) BY Throwing it BACK in the Lords Face.
2) BY thereafter receiving Salvation, THEN reject the Lord.

(Utter nonsense)

I MADE "MY" own calling on the Lord, and He responded ONCE and forever TO MAKE ME WHOLLY WHOLE and acceptable unto HIM.

Yes, we disagree, and I will continue to Agree with Scripture over your Catholic traditions and teaching.

Glory to God,
Taken

First of all - I find it both interesting and hilarious how Protestants - and even YOU - throw around Rom 10:3 to deny Mary's sinlessness - yet when it comes to yourselves, you're "perfectly righteous". Your hypocrisy NEVER fails . . .

As for the rest of your insane diatribe - these verses show that, although you MAY be n the road to perfection - you ain't there yet.
Your delusion at you already are - it is a cautionary tale for everybody reading this about the effects of spiritual arrogance . . .