The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[farouk]

Isaiah 54:1

Future Blessings for Zion 1“Shout for joy, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth into song and
cry aloud, you who have never travailed; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who
has a husband,” says the LORD. 2“Enlarge the site of your tent, stretch out the curtains of your dwellings, do
not hold back. Lengthen your ropes and drive your stakes deep.…



More valuable , NOT MORE IN QUANTITY but RATHER QUALITY will be the children I bring forth-
THAT THE REV.14 (Zion)= INDICATION OF THE SUMMIT OF THE FAITH =SUMMIT OF KNOWL-
EDGE which is theirs to have according to the Will of the Father. Because I/We -those of Rev.14 have a NEW
Song we do not fit into any one particular denomination. We are rejected because we cannot be married to any
in fullness because of defilement. So we are considered DESOLATE-(of a place) deserted of people and in a
state of bleak and dismal emptiness.



For a while this is our state, given that we are few and far between and as you said....well do the math. From
where each of the 144, 000 are we enlarge the SITE of our tent. We stretch out the Curtains (Grace ) of our
dwellings. Notice 'SITE' is singular and 'DWELLINGS' is plural? That is because we are of one MIND even
though for now we dwell in dispersion . We will all be united in Israel after the sixth seal . This will be a super-
natural gathering being bore up on EAGLES wings= By the Power of God ALONE! Christ is going to move
heaven and earth for His Elect. At the Hallelujah -Rev.19 the two sticks will be joined together and be one
House.



Ezekiel 37:17

One Nation with One King

…16“And you, son of man, take a single stick and write on it: ‘Belonging to Judah and to the Israelites associ-
ated with him.’ Then take another stick and write on it: ‘Belonging to Joseph—the stick of Ephraim—and to all
the house of Israel associated with him.’ 17Then join them together into one stick, so that they become one in
your hand. 18When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you explain to us what you mean by these?’…



"belonging to Joseph" that means those out of gentile nations . For Joseph was exalted among the gentiles. This
is a precursor of what would be concerning the Messiah. The Messiah -The Lord, is greatly honored among the
nations outside of Israel. " Our Sacred and Immaculate Hearts shall TRIUMPH" . You have no clue what is
coming! I am to sing regardless of acceptance . For a little while I am dejected and spurned but the Lord will
not forsake me. As He will not forsake Israel (Jacob the remnant). I could get into all the deep interps. of scrip-
ture but there would not be enough time nor space to share all I know because it is eternal.

Jeremiah 9:24

24But let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD, who exercises
loving devotion, justice and righteousness on the earth— for I delight in these things,” declares the LORD.



Blessed Be the name of the Lord, His Mercy endures forever!

Some searching Old Testament Scriptures there...

 

[Nondenom40]

Can one be highly favored and it not mean full of grace?

Of course. Mary is a great example. But then so are all believers in Jesus. Highly favored does not mean full of grace. This is just basic grammar 101. Which makes the rest of your post moot.

The angel Gabriel was making a pronouncement of what was about to happen. At her "YES" it is fulfilled. Not before her consent. Faith is a dance in which one follows God's lead.

To be specific. Her 'yes' was in response to a command, not a question. The text says 'you will...', not 'will you...'

Luke 1:26-37
Gabriel Foretells Jesus’ Birth

26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27to a virgin pledged in marriage to a man named Joseph, who was of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. 28The angel appeared to her and said, “Greetings,b you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.c ” 29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!” 34“How can this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” 35The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God. 36Look, even Elizabeth your relative has conceived a son in her old age, and she who was called barren is in her sixth month. 37For no word from God will ever fail.e ” 38“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it happen to me according to your word.” Then the angel left her.

One can not be "highly favored" without Grace. Grace is not by merit of ones own strength, but rather is extended to you in Mercy. All are saved by grace.
Ephesians 2:7-8
Alive with Christ
…7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.…

And?

Grace is a favor extended to you through Mercy (Christ). In the biblical sense:
do honor or credit to (someone or something) by one's presence. And it was at the Annunciation that the Power of the Most High overshadowed the Mother Elect of Christ.

Grace by definition is unmerited favor.

Luke 1:46
Mary's Song
45Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord’s word to her will be fulfilled.” 46Then Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord, 47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior!…

When was that fulfilled? When was she saved? Was it before Mercy (Christ)came? To be saved means to be redeemed and saved from the penalties which come from sin. So how , if in her mothers' womb was she already SAVED? How could she exclaim that something be done to her according to Fulfillment in TIME -(THEN), before the Word of the Lord spoke it to her?

She wasn't, thats how. Mary's IC is a fabrication told by rome, not scripture. Not a hint in all of Gods word about mary being sinless from her mothers womb. Youre simply connecting dots that don't exist.

When was His purpose announced to her, in her mother's womb or when the angel came to her? If Catholic doctrine is correct, then why did she say "my soul magnifies the Lord" and "MY SPIRIT REJOICES IN GOD MY SAVIOR", if she was saved prior to this revelation? Order of events . And the scriptures from Genesis 3:15 up to the NT tell us the order of events. Her Immaculate Conception is in Christ at her 'YES" . She is received and conceived of His Spirit IMMACULATELY and Born again of Him at His Birth ." The second/last Adam is a life giving Spirit" This is how she is the Immaculate Conception . With every birth , even a spiritual one , there is a conception. Hers was Immaculate at her "YES" to receiving the Holy Seed-THE WORD OF GOD!

A. Catholic doctrine is not correct. Its flawed, and that greatly!
B. She rejoiced in God her savior because she is a sinner in need of salvation, just like you and I.

That is when the ENMITY spoken of in Genesis 3:15 came between satan's seed=knowledge and the Woman. The Holy Spirit came between her and satan and removed all the stain of the knowledge of sin. The Holy Spirit had to be placed between her and satan in order to be between satan and HER SEED (CHILD) . She had to therefore, be purified in order for Christ, who has no sin to be born of her flesh without sin. But it could not happen BEFORE the annunciation because then the truths spoken by St.Paul the apostle and Timothy would be null and void. She is not the exception to the rule . For God is no author of confusion but peace. She is taken from the same lump of clay= Humanity. Her distinction came at God's pronouncement of purpose for her. And the potter then fashioned her for the HIGHEST BEAUTY IN GRACE. As Eve is born of Adam's flesh Mother Miryam(Mary) is born of Christ- the Life Giving Spirit.

To be continued.....

Said the bible nowhere. Lurkers behold, eisegesis at its best.

 

[CovenantPromise]

More about Immaculate Conception. Since she is the first to be conceived and born again of Christ Spirit, she is the Immaculate Conception of Christianity from which all proceeds . MERCY did this for her and Grace made it so. From her Cup to all others then.

 

[farouk]

More about Immaculate Conception. Since she is the first to be conceived and born again of Christ Spirit, she is the Immaculate Conception of Christianity from which all proceeds . MERCY did this for her and Grace made it so. From her Cup to all others then.

The idea of the supposed immaculate conception supposes that Mary was without sin. Whereas she too needed a Saviour; 'my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour' (Luke 2).

 

[CovenantPromise]

Of course. Mary is a great example. But then so are all believers in Jesus. Highly favored does not mean full of grace. This is just basic grammar 101. Which makes the rest of your post moot.
To be specific. Her 'yes' was in response to a command, not a question. The text says 'you will...', not 'will you...'

And?

Grace by definition is unmerited favor.


She wasn't, thats how. Mary's IC is a fabrication told by rome, not scripture. Not a hint in all of Gods word about mary being sinless from her mothers womb. Youre simply connecting dots that don't exist.


A. Catholic doctrine is not correct. Its flawed, and that greatly!
B. She rejoiced in God her savior because she is a sinner in need of salvation, just like you and I.
Said the bible nowhere. Lurkers behold, eisegesis at its best.

As are you flawed. And you are given freewill to express your opinion. As I said only the 144,000 can learn the song. Carry On!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Interesting. Just wanted to ask, this maybe a common Christian misunderstanding from non-denominational Christians and protestants, do most Catholics believe in Hell?

And thanks for explaining Purgatory.

I would expect real Catholics to believe in Hell at the very least, those are just my thoughts though and from your reply here I would take it you believe in both Heaven and Hell along with Purgatory?

And

I never get why other Christians like to bash Catholics so much, as real Catholics are born again too. There's a lot that non-denominational Christians and protestant Christians don't understand about Catholicism, to the point some even believe real Catholics go to hell, and I am going to say right now I don't believe that, I believe there will be a lot of people who were Catholics on earth in Heaven. And if we looked into the lives of some Catholic Saints, they had a really close relationship to God.

Yes, Catholics believe in Hell.
It was the Catholic Church that taught the world about Heaven and Hell.

And thank you for your charitable tone. That's a rare commodity around here.

 

[Nondenom40]

As are you flawed. And you are given freewill to express your opinion. As I said only the 144,000 can learn the song. Carry On!

I see. You prefer monologue over dialogue. A true catholic indeed! Anyone that disagrees with YOUR interpretation HAS to be wrong. When you can't correctly define basic biblical words then i'd say you are the one that is flawed.

Simple test. Just show us where a lexicon defines charitoo as full of grace. We'll wait. If youre unwilling to do that tiny bit of legwork then i don't know what to tell you.

 

[CovenantPromise]

The idea of the supposed immaculate conception supposes that Mary was without sin. Whereas she too needed a Saviour; 'my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour' (Luke 2).

She is clear but what is not is the definition. Satan had to throw a wrench into the mix so that the true understanding of Immaculate Conception would not be received. Immaculate Conception was a discussion in Christian circles long before it was defined. Tell me what birth has no conception?

 

[CovenantPromise]

I see. You prefer monologue over dialogue. A true catholic indeed! Anyone that disagrees with YOUR interpretation HAS to be wrong. When you can't correctly define basic biblical words then i'd say you are the one that is flawed.

Simple test. Just show us where a lexicon defines charitoo as full of grace. We'll wait. If youre unwilling to do that tiny bit of legwork then i don't know what to tell you.

No , anyone who does not agree with Truth rather, is not Christian! I am simply Christian.

 

[Nondenom40]

More about Immaculate Conception. Since she is the first to be conceived and born again of Christ Spirit, she is the Immaculate Conception of Christianity from which all proceeds . MERCY did this for her and Grace made it so. From her Cup to all others then.

I tried getting us back on track discussing the topic, purgatory. So when catholics go ape over the current IC discussion point to your own. If you want to flesh out marys IC, start a thread. And btw, your post is simply an argument from emotion. Not a lick of it in scripture to back up anything you just said.

 

[farouk]

She is clear but what is not is the definition. Satan had to throw a wrench into the mix so that the true understanding of Immaculate Conception would not be received. Immaculate Conception was a discussion in Christian circles long before it was defined. Tell me what birth has no conception?

The Lord Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost; though Mary was not sinless, which is what the "Immaculate Conception" is theologically taken to mean.

 

[Nondenom40]

No , anyone who does not agree with Truth rather, is not Christian! I am simply Christian.

You haven't presented any truth, but romes version of the truth. Hardly a trustworthy source.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Scripture "reveals" an angel came unto Mary and greeted Mary. (Hail) and notified Mary she was 1) "highly "favoured"...2) the Lord was "WITH" her...3) she was blessed among women.

[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

[29] And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

The angel further notified Mary, "she" had "found favor with God."

[30] And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: FOR (ie BECAUSE) thou hast found favour with God.

What is your point?

Mary was the ONLY person God has "found favour with" ?

Mary was the ONLY person God has given "His Grace to" ?

Gods Favour and Grace was ONLY given "PERMANENTLY" to Mary?

Something else?

Glory to God,
Taken

Like I said before – you are obviously NOT equipped to discuss Mary’s God-given title of “Kecharitomene”.

Just to let you know – the NT wasn’t written in King James English. It was written in Koine Greek.

It DIDN’T say or “Hail, thou that art highly favoured“.
It says:
χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη
“Hail Kecharitomene.”

As I schooled you earlier – Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

NOBODY else in ALL of Scripture is given this title.

Until you can wrap your mind around that fact – you aren‘t equipped to discuss this rationally . . .

 

[CovenantPromise]

The Lord Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost; though Mary was not sinless, which is what the "Immaculate Conception" is theologically taken to mean.

I know but how about what the scriptures show it means? And since it is NOT A WRAP , there is much to learn still. And that's why the scriptures are for correction . Hence, why Timothy wrote what he wrote , right? The problem is , you never accepted mother Mary in the way the queens have to begin with. It is out of them that I have been called to come into my own song.

farouk if division is your claim to fame or rather infamy before God have at it. I am simply for truth and I will reach across denominational lines to collect Truth. I am a gold digger and only in it for the finest. The queens have some gold silver and precious gems and some hay wood and straw. Not into the straw , hay and wood. Concubines because they have no Rites have only silver if anything worth keeping and a lot of hay wood and straw doctrine.

I will not be forsaken and I must experience this until the appointed hour . If you cannot come along in growth don't. To each his own. I know I am 100% right. And I know the daughters of Jerusalem have shared a lot of gold and precious gems.

I hear a lot of noise but no proof against what I am saying ,with scripture. Opinion is not approval in fact. I used scripture to uphold all I shared. It is simply the last hour of the End of the age. Christ is cleaning house. Those who are daughters of Jerusalem- meaning: those who have been grafted into the the Original Olive Tree by DIRECT means of apostles. They are queens and are daughters of Jerusalem. You are probably of some concubine denomination in origin or decided you prefer the concubines that have no Rites or esteem of mother Mary and saints.

The daughters of Jerusalem who receive what I say will keep it close to breast until the sign of the appropriate time. Those who keep it and share at the appropriate time are Daughters of Jerusalem who grow into the Shulammite. This is not going to be accepted by the harlots that have arisen in them and refuse to grow. Christ is going to cut them off completely, the Harlot Body . The Hallelujah is COMING! The final stage of what I am saying will be driven in deep by the Two Witnesses who will affirm the Shulammite- Kuria(The Noble Lady from the place of Peace) and bring about the sixth seal or Second Woe. The Two Witnesses will arrive on the scene during the First Woe the CALAMITY COMING ! The sounding of the Trumpets which bring upon the earth the GLOBAL trial! Daughters of Jerusalem "do not stir up love before it's time" . When the Two Witness arrive and affirm what the Shulammite says THEN they will fully understand if they do not now.

Great purging discussion I think. Right on topic for those who: "some souls are Blessed to do their purgatory here on earth" Mother Miryam (Mary).
Oh! many of the messages to the Roman Church have been hi-jacked by the harlots but I have them. God Bless the Roman Church, not part of the Body of the harlot.

 

[farouk]

You haven't presented any truth, but romes version of the truth. Hardly a trustworthy source.

The Scriptures are indeed the believer's yardstick...

 

[CovenantPromise]

The church which is in Rome is not the only daughter of Jerusalem. We have the Coptic Church of Egypt which St. Mark started. The Ethiopian Church which Philip started.The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo assembly has not been absorbed into the Catholic as have the Ethiopian Orthodox church they are different but both queens . The Church in India - St.Thomas. St. Paul the church of Syria so forth and so on. I will show how there are sixty queens and eighty concubines etc.... another time in a thread. But as for compiling scriptures Rome did that for the rest of the world that did not know of Christianity and commissioned men to go forth. Seeding Rome was a good thing. What the harlots did is on them. . There is more to share as I said= for a thread.

 

[CovenantPromise]

You haven't presented any truth, but romes version of the truth. Hardly a trustworthy source.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Mungo]

You didn't answer my questions. First it IS atoning for sin. This is what 'make satisfaction for' and 'expiate' means. Look it up. It goes right back to Romans 3:25 and propitiation. Jesus is our propitiation, not you or me.

I did look it up.
To quote from post #34

[expiate
atone for (guilt or wrongdoing).

satisfaction
2. Law the payment of a debt or fulfilment of an obligation or claim.

Both from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary
Both terms are applicable to the wrong we do to others.]

In the context of the wrong we do to others the Catechism equates 'expiate' to 'make satisfaction'.

From the section on Satisfaction
1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

Perhaps you did not understand my explanation of the double effect of sin.

Here is how the catechism explains it in the section on Indulgences:
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

Going back to the section on Satisfaction it says under 1460 (and note the part I have emboldened)
Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him." [Rom 8:17; Rom 3:25; 1 Jn 2:1-2;]

The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of "him who strengthens" us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ . . . in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth "fruits that befit repentance." These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father.

You see. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus is the expiation for out sins and the Catechism references Rom 3:25

Now lets look at 1422

1422 "Those who approach the sacrament of Penance obtain pardon from God's mercy for the offense committed against him, and are, at the same time, reconciled with the Church which they have wounded by their sins and which by charity, by example, and by prayer labors for their conversion."
Thats atonement. The only one doing any ripping out of context are the catholics that water down terms to fit their theology.

What is your problem with 1422.?

 

[Mungo]

Mungo , there is no truth in the Catechism that is not FIRST found in the foundation.
Matthew 5:36
Anger and Reconciliation
…25Reconcile quickly with your adversary, while you are still on the way to court. Otherwise he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Reconciliation is Penance.

But there are some faults in the Catechism . What is your stance on Homosexual orientation Mungo? And what does orientation mean? What is your stance concerning popes? Is it one that overlooks a pope's false doctrine? Does false doctrine govern the Virgin bride or does Christ? What does the Catechism say about the pope being the head of the Church? Do you put the Catechism above the Written Word? Lastly do you think I can prove without a doubt that the Catechism is not perfect as the written Word of God is?

I haven't been following your posts so I don't know what you mean by 'foundation'.
Moreover you last paragraph is just an off topic rant which I have no intention of following.

 

[CovenantPromise]

I haven't been following your posts so I don't know what you mean by 'foundation'.
Moreover you last paragraph is just an off topic rant which I have no intention of following.

That is up to you to forgo Christian Charity. Your rejection of what I said does not make ME no less Christian. My Charity is not in question because I clearly read what people say before I respond . Otherwise I am just arrogant. But I am not, I read because I consider others more important than myself. As for foundation, if you do not know what the scriptures say concerning that then that explains a lot .

1 Corinthians 3:
Christ Our Foundation
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,…

Maybe you would know that if you read it and BELIEVED.