The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[CovenantPromise]

BOL SAID: "2 Thess 2:15 which puts Sacred Tradition ON PAR with Scripture."
CP SAYS:
Sacred Tradition are the Words of God
handed down to us, not the precepts of men who have neglected the SACRED TRADITION OF THAT WORD
and have replaced THOSE with their OWN precepts which can not be found in the FIRST CHURCH who laid
down the sacred TRADITIONS -OUR FAITH! Go take a walk with you unsupported so called "sacred tradi-
tions"! Just as Christ and John the baptist called the pharisees in their "sacred traditions " brood of vipers! so too
are those who speak OUTSIDE of the SACRED TRADITIONS LAID DOWN BY GOD.



None of your false so call "sacred traditions" can be found in the scriptures which are profitable for building
from . GET IT!



The Matthew effect:

For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even
what he has will be taken away. — Matthew 25:29, I tell you, that to every one ( Covenant Promise)who has
will more be given; but from him who has not (YOU), even what he has will be taken away.



JUDGEMENT has been passed and the sentence IS COMING! And I know I am 100% right. The sum of your
claim , with the equation of your words is(=) the scriptures and the Holy Spirit/God, are a house divided. Yet
you will with words, but not heart say (Faith and Works are one as God is ONE) which means you equal this:

Matthew 15:7-9Tradition and Worship

…7You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you: 8‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their
hearts are far from Me. 9They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’”…



CHECK MATE , I WIN! Glory to God in the Highest, His peace is with those of GOOD WILL toward men,
not self! THE WORD OF THE LORD, THANKS BE TO GOD I am NOT a hypocrite = a house divide, which
can not stand. I am not because, I know the scriptures are the Works of the Holy Spirit. By faith- (Love of God )
I know this! I am ONE in GOD . Looks like you are spewed out of the Lords mouth. Better for you to have
never known God than to have known HIM and deny Him. In other words, better to be cold(NOT TO HAVE
EVER BELIEVED IN HIM OR KNOWN HIM) for that type can be saved.



It is the greatest to be like me "HOT" because to be that means I have the authority to determine what you are.
Also , ONLY the HOT can bring those (COLD TYPE) of people to Christ. And to be spewed out is Apostate
and there is NO return!



Hence ,why Christ said this: Matthew 5:20 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the
scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven



WHAT WAS THAT? Exactly ! So what is HE saying about the Pharisee minded= (THOSE WHO PUT THE
PRECEPTS OF MEN BEFORE HONOR OF GOD)? Sounds like hypocrites do not go to heaven! And I must
exceed your teaching and I DO, THANK YOU ABBA!





a·pos·tate

/?'pä?stat,?'päst?t/

Learn to pronounce

noun

noun: apostate; plural noun: apostates

a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle



And that you have been doing for a long time!

 

[shnarkle]

Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary...etc.

Would you, or the Catholic church then conclude that Mary is in no way in need of salvation? If she is sinless, Christ's sacrifice is of no use to her whatsoever, correct? She is saved simply by divine fiat from God.

This poses a dilemma in that if that's all God had to do, then why not do that with everyone?

 

[shnarkle]

Ummmmm......You have to be a good person to be saved kiddo soooo being good person does have to do with being saved.

There are atheist who are good people.....they don't have Christ so you need to work on that theory

This is difficult to understand. The damned are not only not good, but have no desire to be good other than to justify themselves. How is that different than being good as a means of salvation? Other than the goal, being good as a means of salvation is right in line with the Old Testament which Paul clearly denies as a possibility for salvation. Instead he says, "By grace through faith, and that not of yourselves; not by works..." no by being good. Being good is a consequence of salvation, not the means by which one is saved.

The doers of the law are justified, but they're not justified by the works themselves, but by the faith of Christ that enables them to do the good works in the first place.

 

[shnarkle]

Paul disagreed with you in Romans.

I seem to remember Paul saying something like that as well, but I can't remember where. Was it in Romans? I can't find it.

 

[Marymog]

This is difficult to understand. The damned are not only not good, but have no desire to be good other than to justify themselves. How is that different than being good as a means of salvation? Other than the goal, being good as a means of salvation is right in line with the Old Testament which Paul clearly denies as a possibility for salvation. Instead he says, "By grace through faith, and that not of yourselves; not by works..." no by being good. Being good is a consequence of salvation, not the means by which one is saved.

The doers of the law are justified, but they're not justified by the works themselves, but by the faith of Christ that enables them to do the good works in the first place.

Being good is a consequence of salvation? Are there no good atheist?

 

[shnarkle]

We have already been down this road kiddo. You say 1 Peter 3:21 doesn't mean (in context) that baptism saves....even though is says "baptism now saves you".

Isn't this referring to the baptism of the spirit?

In Acts 2, when St. Peter is preaching at Pentecost, his hearers ask what they must do to be saved? Peter would tell you the same thing David Taylor: “Repent and be baptized.”

How do we know this isn't referring to the baptism of the Spirit rather than the baptism of water? After all, even John the Baptist makes the distinction between his baptism in water as a token of repentance, and the baptism by the Spirit which saves.

Romans 6

says, “Don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”

This is clearly not a reference to water baptism, but right in line with Christ's own words to his disciples when he points out that God determines who is to undergo the baptism he must endure.

This idea that we are made one with Christ through baptism is reiterated by Paul in Colossians 2:12 when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead, and in Galatians 3:27 As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Paul likens baptism to “being clothed with Christ.”

None of these references have anything to do with water baptism. They are explicit references to being baptized into Christ's death and resurrection.

If Peter and Paul are not good enough for ya' David then listen to Jesus: “No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit”.

This is an explicit reference to the baptism of the Spirit, i.e. "spiritual water" by the figure Hendiadys. This is affirmed in verse 8 with those who are "born of the Spirit", as well as later in 7:38,39 " He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

 

[shnarkle]

Being good is a consequence of salvation? Are there no good atheist?

Bearing fruit systemically is a consequence of salvation, and that is good. It certainly isn't bad or evil. No good tree produces bad or evil fruit.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's right one must enter by the fold any who would try to enter another way , is a thief . I have shown that concerning Constantine . And that goes for anyone else who would teach contrary to that which is held by the fold. Such as using Apocrypha to formulate doctrines. And I never said that the answers which are found in the scriptures alone are found without the Holy Spirit. I am simply saying in (clear ENGLISH) that those precepts given to us are the basis in which we can profit from in forming doctrines. You just do not like the truth . And the real truth is ,you have not proven ANYTHING I have said to be wrong. And no matter what, anything you know about Christ is according to Scripture alone. As for "oral" anything , comes from the apostles. And you do not hear from them personally. When they say "oral "they are speaking in present tense concerning- to their audience which they personally spoke to . In that case they spoke in oral Tradition in speaking of the scriptures and prophets which Christ fulfilled their words. Moving forward from their personal dialogue with their listeners who lived when they lived, they penned the word of God's- Law and ordinances (PRECEPTS) to be handed down, NOT TO EVER BE CONTRADICTED!

Anything which contradicts the scriptures , is not in harmony with the HOLY SPIRIT for both scripture and the spoken word by men- moving forward is anchored in what we first were taught in scripture . YOU JUST REJECT THAT TRUTH TO FEEL ALL SELF IMPORTANT!


You are the only one who has not and will not prove your point.
2 Timothy3:
All Scripture Is God-Breathed

10You , however, have observed my teaching, my conduct, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance, 11my persecutions, and the sufferings that came upon me in Antioch, Iconium, and Lystra. What persecutions I endured! Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12Indeed, all who desire to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in the things you have learned and firmly believed, since you know from whom you have learned them.

15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction/profit, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.
COMPLETE_ FULLY EQUIPPED- like full of grace a permanent COMPLETE work for those who know it is the scriptures,( which are God breathed) ,that make us wise to the serpents out there.
You can call Timothy- friend and companion to the apostle Paul, a liar all you like. That does not ,make what he CLEARLY SAYS ....WRONG! It only proves you are a deceiver and imposter who goes from bad to worse. JUST AS HE SAID according to scripture alone!

You are indoctrinated by bunk and it is not that I HAVE NOT PROVEN MY POINT, you simply just do not accept the truth. Opinion is not enough , FACTS, EVIDENCE (empirical and rational ), is what is necessary which God provides in HIS written WORD ! His precepts in written word are the basis to profit/instruct a man in building DOCTRINE. You are one of two things, A DECEIVER or an IMPOSTER, That according to scripture alone which was penned by men in the Holy Spirit.

That is right ! PROFITABLE and if out side of them- NOT PROFITABLE! And of course men will speak from the gifts given them by the Holy Spirit too, AND THOSE GIFTS NEVER CONTRADICT THE WRITTEN PRECEPTS OF THE SCRIPTURES FOR FAITH AND WORKS ARE ONE AS GOD IS ONE and that too is according to the teachings of the scriptures alone not any other book BEFORE IT!. That would be unprofitable . ARE YOU BLIND! That is right the scriptures set up WHAT CHURCH AUTHORITY IS ! Stop talking like a NIMROD. And listen to what you are even saying.
Continued......

Not sure why you’re bringing up Constantine. He wasn’t a Catholic leader.

Secondly – your claim that “everything” I know about Christ is from Scripture is complete nonsense. Everything I have been taught by His CHURCH, which is an extension if HIM (Acts 9:3-5, Col. 1:18) is what I know about Christ – and a lot of is taught in Scripture – but NOT all.

For example – Infant Baptism is alluded to in Scripture – but we get the specifics from ORAL TRADITION.
Christ told His Apostles at the Last Supper:

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
\But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

ALL Truth is what He guaranteed to the leaders of His Church.
Never ONCE did He say that it would be written down – or did He even TELL them to write it down. Instead – He instructed them to TEACH all nations EVERYTHING He commanded (Matt. 28:19-20).

The Oral Traditions of Christ’s Church do NOT contradict Scripture. Your failure to understand or accept them doesn’t automatically render them “contradictory.”

Finally – YOU are adding to Scripture what is NOT there.
2 Tim. 3:16-17 says that Scripture is profitable for teaching, doctrine, reproof, etc. NOWHERE does it state that Oral Tradition is null and void. That is YOUR addendum to the Word of God – NOT what is written.

 

[Marymog]

Isn't this referring to the baptism of the spirit?

How do we know this isn't referring to the baptism of the Spirit rather than the baptism of water? After all, even John the Baptist makes the distinction between his baptism in water as a token of repentance, and the baptism by the Spirit which saves.

When you read 1 Peter 3:21 in context it is clearly referring to water.

 

[Marymog]

This is clearly not a reference to water baptism, but right in line with Christ's own words to his disciples when he points out that God determines who is to undergo the baptism he must endure.



None of these references have anything to do with water baptism. They are explicit references to being baptized into Christ's death and resurrection.



This is an explicit reference to the baptism of the Spirit, i.e. "spiritual water" by the figure Hendiadys. This is affirmed in verse 8 with those who are "born of the Spirit", as well as later in 7:38,39 " He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

How do you get buried with Him in baptism?

 

[Marymog]

Bearing fruit systemically is a consequence of salvation, and that is good. It certainly isn't bad or evil. No good tree produces bad or evil fruit.

You didn't answer the question: Are there no good atheist?

 

[shnarkle]

When you read 1 Peter 3:21 in context it is clearly referring to water.

It clearly says just the exact opposite:

"not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand"

 

[shnarkle]

You didn't answer the question: Are there no good atheist?

I did answer the question. I told you exactly how one may determine whether one's good works are the fruit of a systemic process or not.

One can produce good works without love, but one cannot love without producing good works. The damned Pharisees who produced more than their fair share of good works, had no chance of salvation.

You just state a generic term which doesn't tell us much of anything. I clarified my answer so you can answer the question for yourself. Is this atheist you prop up for inspection producing good works systemically, or by his own will and effort?

 

[shnarkle]

How do you get buried with Him in baptism?

By self denial/self sacrifice. This is the core tenet of Christianity. Paul says the flesh must be crucified daily to live a resurrected life in Christ. Once that happens, then Christ's words begin to make sense: "my burden is light, my yoke easy"

When one dies to themselves, Christ lives in, with, and through you.

 

[reformed1689]

I seem to remember Paul saying something like that as well, but I can't remember where. Was it in Romans? I can't find it.

Romans chapter 3.

 

[reformed1689]

Yeah'.....ummmmm.....once again kiddo......being a good person and being righteous are NOT the same thing.

Thank you for your time.

You seem to think there is such a thing as a good person who is not righteous. Only in man's eyes, not God's eyes.

 

[CovenantPromise]

Not sure why you’re bringing up Constantine. He wasn’t a Catholic leader.

Secondly – your claim that “everything” I know about Christ is from Scripture is complete nonsense. Everything I have been taught by His CHURCH, which is an extension if HIM (Acts 9:3-5, Col. 1:18) is what I know about Christ – and a lot of is taught in Scripture – but NOT all.

For example – Infant Baptism is alluded to in Scripture – but we get the specifics from ORAL TRADITION.
Christ told His Apostles at the Last Supper:

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
\But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

ALL Truth is what He guaranteed to the leaders of His Church.
Never ONCE did He say that it would be written down – or did He even TELL them to write it down. Instead – He instructed them to TEACH all nations EVERYTHING He commanded (Matt. 28:19-20).

The Oral Traditions of Christ’s Church do NOT contradict Scripture. Your failure to understand or accept them doesn’t automatically render them “contradictory.”

Finally – YOU are adding to Scripture what is NOT there.
2 Tim. 3:16-17 says that Scripture is profitable for teaching, doctrine, reproof, etc. NOWHERE does it state that Oral Tradition is null and void. That is YOUR addendum to the Word of God – NOT what is written.

Still quoting scripture and what men deduce from the language of the scriptures as I have been saying all along is based on the language -equation from the scriptures. I am not talking about infant baptism and you know it. I am quite clear and I thoroughly understand about infant baptism. I notice everything I say that you cannot win against you throw children in the mix as though I said something against little children. You have done it with just about all our debates. As for leaders of the church, that all depends upon their fidelity to Christ not their loyalty to the precepts of men accepted as tradition. Or traditions they set up which can not be shown to be fact through the scriptures when tested PERIOD!

BOL:
"For example – Infant Baptism is alluded to in Scripture – but we get the specifics from ORAL TRADITION.
Christ told His Apostles at the Last Supper"
CP
No kidding!

BOL:
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
\But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
CP:
John 16:12-15
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
No kidding. AAAANNNND?
And that Spirit is no hypocrite nor does He contradict the scriptures. You saying it, then believing non -truths does not mean what those verses say.
They are one as God is one as I have said all along. And you quote those from where??? From the scripture's alone. No other book told you that, but other books quote from the scriptures. SOOOO, your point?

I clearly have not said anything against Infant baptism, The Eucharist, the Mother of Christ (Concerning that- I have edified you and many ). And will continue to edify whoever has a doubt about TRUE doctrine, that I have acknowledged from the Catholic assembly and expounded upon with CERTAIN clarity. And what I have revealed is not based on Apocrypha or things called"sacred Traditions " with no basis in the reality of the written word. FOR SURE! So your point?

All the rest you put, is deflection . You hold up the word" children "to shield you as though someone denied them by denying your nonsense. My children are sound. PERIOD!

 

[reformed1689]

If Peter and Paul are not good enough for ya' David then listen to Jesus: “No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit”.

Oh boy here we go with this nonsense again. John 3 is NOT talking about baptism.

 

[shnarkle]

Romans chapter 3.

Thanks. Ah, yes, there it is:

"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

I also see this is where Paul points out that only those sins that one commits in the past are covered by Christ's sacrifice. This is something that most people tend to miss completely: "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" This places any and all sinners on a level playing field."

I think it's also noteworthy to point out that the atheist is much more closely aligned with Abraham's faith than most believers because whatever ideas he has are those of Christians, and the atheist rejects any and all ideas because they're just ideas, and God is not an idea or concept.

 

[shnarkle]

Oh boy here we go with this nonsense again. John 3 is NOT talking about baptism.

Clearly it isn't about water baptism, but wouldn't it fit in with the baptism of the Spirit? Spiritual water? A spiritual birth in spiritual water? I suspect we would agree that's the only baptism that actually saves anyone.

Getting dunked in a pool or sprinkled with water can't save the damned, any more than taking a shower can. As Peter points out, "not the removal of dirt from the body"