The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

Then you are being willfully blind.

Hardly.

These are non-answers in light of the Scriptural evidence I've presented.

Besides - you were never able to furnish proof of your claim that Acts says you MUST have faith prior to being Baptized.

 

[reformed1689]

These are non-answers in light of the Scriptural evidence I've presented.

No, you have provided Catholic commentary on Scripture.

Besides - you were never able to furnish proof of your claim that Acts says you MUST have faith prior to being Baptized.

Repent and be baptized. That is an order of operation. Repent first, then be baptized.

 

[CovenantPromise]

It is really not complicated to figure out all these doctrines. Catholics go on quoting this man and that man.The Protestants scream when at the age of reason , and even then it is just a bath , only a symbolic meaning. God knows who will end up believing and who will check out at the sidelines because the race is too hard. THE MAN, before any man would even be counted in HIM. He explains it very simply:
Matthew 19:13
Jesus Blesses the Children
13Then the little children were brought to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them. And the disciples rebuked those (THE PARENTS) who brought them.
Why? Because they thought the kingdom of heaven was only for those who can ponder it . That in the thoughts of the disciples OBVIOUSLY. For why else would they hinder? And Christ said simply- AH NO!, hinder not for such, is the Kingdom of heaven for . No limits! Matters not if you can ponder , makes no difference to the hand laid on a child in FAITH, in layman terms He said "I got this". Hinder not! LOGOS, the one in the name of ABBA- PAPA -Father said :Hinder NOT and let the CHILDREN IN! With laying on of hands with water, prayer ....YEAH you know all this.
14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15And after He had placed His hands on them, He went on from there.…

 

[CovenantPromise]

It is funny, all this quoting from men who only had access to the scriptures themselves (at the time they formed their doctrines) by joining the ruling body and that was not the little ones ( to whom the Father reveals the kingdom of heaven to, not the proud , arrogant and strong in position) as Christ calls them. They were kept out! No one could learn the scriptures for themselves unless they were taught by these men of the fraternity. People could not challenge men like Tertullian , Popes, so forth and so on. They were the biggest hinders and kept the little ones out and they themselves did not even enter. They did not enter because they wanted to Lord over all men as God not lift men up to know God as God desires. They did not seek to let in, because they wanted to use the scriptures to control, not enlighten and uplift. No different than the pharisees.

But God said knowledge would increase and men would go to and fro gaining it in prophecy and all has happened par His plan.
Daniel 12:4
Michael's Deliverance and the End Times
…3Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever. 4But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will roam to and fro, and knowledge will increase.” 5Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing there, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank.…

This could not be for Daniel's time , nor Christ's time concerning access through technology , nor Tertullian's time or many of the Popes , like he who falsely defined Immaculate Conception.
So, clearly this is a prophecy that would occur with the bringing forth of technology in its various stages and forms. Of course after the printing press. And grew as time moved forward to today , where people go to and fro like sparks:
This speaks to Daniel's prophecy:
Wis.3 Verses 1 to 9

[1] But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God,
and no torment will ever touch them.
[2] In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, (People like me who can not identify fully with any one denomination and are hated by all.)
and their departure was thought to be an affliction, ( We have to leave because we challenge the denominations and their false doctrinal fathers).
[3] and their going from us to be their destruction;
but they are at peace. (Those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes are at peace- Rev.14).
[4] For though in the sight of men they were punished,
their hope is full of immortality.( We will be transformed as our Blessed mother was and snatched up at the last trumpet.)
[5] Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good,
because God tested them and found them worthy of himself;
[6] like gold in the furnace he tried them,
and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them.( The Rev.14 are the redeemed from among nations.)
[7] In the time of their visitation they will shine forth,( already doing that and greater than that-The Hallelujah Rev.19 that we will wait and attain to Book of Daniel. It is after the sixth seal)
and will run like sparks through the stubble. ( the stubble is what remains after a harvest, which we are presently in and the Rev.14 are just the beginning cycle, THE TWO WITNESSES will bring about the last to bind in bundles to burn and the finish wheat from among the Jews.)
[8] They will govern nations and rule over peoples,
and the Lord will reign over them for ever. ( The first to know and the Last Elect Rev.14 and Rev.7 the completed house are FIRST FRUITS.)

[9] Those who trust in him will understand truth,
and the faithful will abide with him in love,
because grace and mercy are upon his elect,
and he watches over his holy ones.
Continued.......

 

[CovenantPromise]

And par His prophecy concerning His plan , the End Game is this:

Jeremiah 31:

Mourning Turned to Joy

…33“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will
put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.
34No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all
know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity and will
remember their sins no more.” 35Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day, who orders the
moon and stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—the LORD of Hosts is His
name:…



It is for men to not remain under the RULE of other Men but solely under the Rule of God. So no wonder why
father in laws = in the Laws of Traditions of men NOT CHRIST, have their panties in a wad. They are loosing
their authority over people. They are revealed over denominations and are priest, pastors, popes and rabbis who
see their authority diminishing. They are not humble either, but rude and mean spirited and demand hierarchical
servitude. They profess doctrines- self made precepts as AUTHORITY. And even call themselves Infallible
concerning their decrees from their positions. WOLVES not sheep, because SHEEP follow Christ. "COME
OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" the sheep hear His voice now and are following that. They are coming out of the
Harlot. What does that mean? Well, a Harlot is simply an unfaithful woman (Leading Body over assemblies) .
They are a mix of a vow to Christ - IN WORD ONLY- but their hearts are far from Him. But they have grown
in love with self and the precepts of men and are unfaithful. They exist over all denominations but the largest
majority of the harlot body is of the Catholic assembly (concerning reach , power and size) . And their doctrines
are the precepts of men ....preferred over TRUE DOCTRINE. They are whores against the Lords tenets- His
scriptures. And no, they do say SOLA SCRIPTURA and then deny them for their doctrinal fathers of only lip
service who produce false doctrines. BIG CHANGES COMING! Hold on to your hats, it about to get very
windy! The sign before His time =before His return.

Rev.6:13

The Sixth Seal: Terror

12And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like
sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, like un-
ripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every
mountain and island was moved from its place.…

After this.....

Jeremiah.....

34No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all
know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity and will
remember their sins no more.”



Scoff all you want at me.You have been told it all ahead of time. And the process too, mind you. Take care if
there are any of the Lord's in here.

 

[Taken]

No, you have provided Catholic commentary on Scripture.

Repent and be baptized. That is an order of operation. Repent first, then be baptized.

Correct.

BOL cannot identify his point, stay on point, provide verification for his point, or agree with anything his church has not dictated he must agree with.

Baptism? Water or Spirit...he mixes as if it is one event.

Spiritual Baptism is an individuals willful surrending of his Life TO the Lord and can occur any time, any place.

The Spiritual Baptism...IS NECESSARY for that person to BECOME a member of Christ's Church.

Water Baptism is a scheduled "ceremony".

The Water Baptism is NOT necessary for a person....EXCEPT for that person to become "A MEMBER" of a particular man-made church.

Water Baptism IS NOT the moment a person becomes BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit.

When a person Repents, Confesses From his Hearts thoughts, to the Lord, IS the moment
A person is Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

STAY on POINT? Scripture speaks of "NOT FORBIDDING" the children to come to Him.

Catholic teaching OFTEN uses a twist philosophy.
Scripture says to NOT "FORBID" the Children to come to Him......
"It does not say DRAG the children there and decide and speak FOR THEM."....the TWIST the Catholic church teaches, and does.

Then BOL makes CLAIMS for the whole of Protestants; as BOL SAID:

Post # 1768 BOL ~
Protestants, on the other havd believe Baptism to be merely symbolic – and MANY believe it to be unnecessary.

Baptism? "Merely symbolic? Unnecessary?"
WHAT Baptism?

Water Baptism IS NOT Necessary. It's a ceremony men perform!

Baptism of the Holy Spirit IS Necessary. It is performed BY the Holy Spirit!

The thief hanging Next to JESUS, was NOT baptized in Water. He Became BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus' teaching to NOT FORBID the Children, WAS an EXPRESS PRECEPT to ALLOW the Children to LEARN about Jesus, SO THE children COULD have the necessary knowledge FOR "THEM" (not their mommy & daddy) to MAKE a declaration of submission to the Lord!

Children learn by LISTENING. "LISTENING", not challenging, LIKE adults who have been exposed to the worlds evil, and who use mindful logic to WONDER "IF" they should believe what they are hearing.

All Humans, children or Adult...MUST DIE, Before they CAN RECEIVE the Holy Spirit.

OT men had to PHSICALLY Bodily DIE.
NT men must be Crucified Bodily Dead with Christ.
Babies Little Children...are EXCEPTED FROM having to BELIEVE and be Crucified with Christ...BECAUSE they have not YET developed the ability to reason.

All Children WHO ARE ALIVE...as Jesus' SAID...DO not FORBID...KEEP them from coming to Him, Learn About Him, Learn how to SEEK Him.
(Little Children that came to Jesus...Jesus Blessed....He didn't quicken them).

All Baby's WHO Physically bodily DIE...BECOME Saved and Quickened....
Without having Learned or made confessions.
God already KNOWS their pure Heart, that has not been tainted by the evils of this world.

BOL teaches, as do Catholics....A PARENT arranging a BABY Ceremonial Water Baptism, IS ... THE DAY, that baby RECEIVES the indwelling Holy Spirit. <--- Scripture teaches no such thing.

BOL has testified, he receivied the Holy Spirit, AS A BABY...without his confession, knowledge or remembrance.

BOL claims a man was excommunicated from the Catholic church..."for going too far"...in teaching "sins are not forgiven AFTER Baptism"...

Actually that is IN FACT TRUE....
And to GIVE the WHOLE TRUTH...
The Baptism IS Specifically SPIRITUAL Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
There IS no Forgiveness AFTER Baptism of the Holy Spirit...
BECAUSE there NO COMMISSION OF SIN, AFTER receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit....'
No Commission of Sin...means there IS NO SIN to "BE" forgiven.

After receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit...that person is FORGIVEN and FREED from SIN and FREED from the Consequences of SIN..
they DO NOT CONTINUE to Commit SIN.

BOL will disagree (and perhaps you also)...
However Scripture does not disagree.

IF one IS under Mosaic Law...
SIN "IS" a violation of the Law.

It was the LAW that dictated...
Disobedience to God....a sin
Rejection of God...a sin
Man steals from man...a sin
Man cheats a man...a sin
Etc. etc.

If a man IS under the Law ^ those things apply to that man.
If a man IS under the Law Consequences OF and IN the Law apply to that man.

IF a man IS NOT "under the Law"...
WHAT DOES APPLY to that man?

Disobedience to God IS a SIN.
Rejection of God IS a SIN.

Man stealing, lying, cheating, tricking, ANOTHER man...IS A SIN? No.
Why? Precisely BECAUSE those things ARE according to the Mosiac LAW.

Are there Consequences for a man, NOT under Mosaic Law, who lie, cheat, steal, etc. toward other men? Yes.
It is called "CIVIL LAW"...Trespassing, Theft, Slander, Stealing, etc.
And "Common LAW"...reject the other, distance from the other, not agree with the other, etc.

And WHAT does Scripture say?
Gods Precepts teach men acceptable behavior of men toward men...and IF men accomplish acceptable behavior between men, the outcome is acceptable and Blessed by God.

And...if men do not have acceptable behavior between themselves....? Scripture teaches YOU suffer the consequences. YOU lose out on Blessings from God....
YOU DO NOT LOSE your already received Salvation!

The TWIST with Catholicism, and what many Protestants have adopted from Catholics...IS
To KEEP Preaching Saved and Born Again men, ARE STILL SUBJECT to Mosaic law...that they DO SIN againt MEN, and that they DO CONINUE TO SIN against MEN after having been saved and born again.

THAT IS FALSE^
Jews Under the Law SIN against men.
Men NOT UNDER THE LAW, Can NOT SIN against men.

BOL consistently accuses men of SINNING.
But NOT ONCE would he point to a Scripture that reveals MEN IN Christ...are committing SIN. He was repeatedly asked...and each time makes a snarky remark, claims he won something, diverts, without ever answering.
He can't...Because he would have to go to, a Jew, Under the Mosaic Law ... which does not apply to a Gentile, NOT under the Law.

Catholics teach and practice; SIN applicable to OT Hebrew/Jewish men IS applicable to NT Jewish men and Gentiles IN Christ.

Catholics teach and practice; things NEVER taught in Scripture ... opinions, theories and philosophies, they have turned into and teach are FACTS. When they are not.

You can PLAINLY request BOL to REVEAL IN Scripture what he teaches...and he Can NOT do so.

His excuses are always the same PAT responses...
FIRST, the snarky cutdown, to set the premise no one should consider what you say.
(Because he has already deemed your belief and Scriptural evidence...irrelevant).
Sola Scripture merits NO consideration;
Church Leaders (well, ONLY Catholic church leaders) have the Authority to dictate, and what THEY say is binding;
Commentary quotes.
Claims he just verified you are wrong and he is right.
Claims he won something.
Regurgitates one last cut-down.
Then
1) demand you prove WITH Scripture, how everthing he claimed IS not IN Scripture...(you know the unnecessary Sola Scriptura...he didn't require...but you do..lol)
2) or he simply claims his booby prize and goes to another topic.

He presents a claim, and then sets the parameters on an UNEVEN playing field...

He presents claims NOT IN Scripture...and verifies with Opinions and philosophies of men (not in Scripture) and then want YOU to PROVE "with Scripture"....his unfounded Scriptural claims.

Not everyone studies LAW.
However LAW is written in the POSITIVE form. <--- that means LAW is written by WHAT IS...rather than the NEGATIVE, of what Isn't.

It is a cunning act of trickery, to preach the POSITIVE is NOT Necessary...(sola scriptura TRUTH)...then demand you prove him wrong with the NEGATIVE, that does not exist.
And further attempts to use personal degradation to buttress his claim.

The Topic doesn't matter. His MO is always the same, he is the TRUTH, and everyone who does not agree with "him", is without the truth.....oh...and "anti-Catholic"...LOL

Expect nothing different. He has been programmed since his natural birth.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, you have provided Catholic commentary on Scripture.

No, I have provided Scriptural evidence - and illustrated that the Early Church from the 2nd Century and beyond practiced Infant Baptism as an APOSTOLIC practice.

Repent and be baptized. That is an order of operation. Repent first, then be baptized.

Okay – sooooooo, show me where the Ethiopian Eunuch repented before he was Baptized.

You won’t find it because it DIDN’T happen.

Repentance before Baptism was preached to ADULTS in the NT because they had to make a decision to convert. Small children and infants didn’t make the decision – it was made FOR them.
- THIS is why Paul spoke of baptizing ENTIRE households.
- THIS is why the Early Church Fathers talk about the APOSTOLIC practice of Baptizing small children and infants with the consent of their PARENTS or guardians.

Acts 2:38-19
Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
For the promise is made to you AND TO YOUR CHILDREN and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”

 

[reformed1689]

Small children and infants didn’t make the decision – it was made FOR them.

Faith is not a decision that can be made for you by someone else.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Correct.

BOL cannot identify his point, stay on point, provide verification for his point, or agree with anything his church has not dictated he must agree with.

Baptism? Water or Spirit...he mixes as if it is one event.

Spiritual Baptism is an individuals willful surrending of his Life TO the Lord and can occur any time, any place.

The Spiritual Baptism...IS NECESSARY for that person to BECOME a member of Christ's Church.

Water Baptism is a scheduled "ceremony".

The Water Baptism is NOT necessary for a person....EXCEPT for that person to become "A MEMBER" of a particular man-made church.

Water Baptism IS NOT the moment a person becomes BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit.

When a person Repents, Confesses From his Hearts thoughts, to the Lord, IS the moment
A person is Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

STAY on POINT? Scripture speaks of "NOT FORBIDDING" the children to come to Him.

Catholic teaching OFTEN uses a twist philosophy.
Scripture says to NOT "FORBID" the Children to come to Him......
"It does not say DRAG the children there and decide and speak FOR THEM."....the TWIST the Catholic church teaches, and does.

Then BOL makes CLAIMS for the whole of Protestants; as BOL SAID:



Baptism? "Merely symbolic? Unnecessary?"
WHAT Baptism?

Water Baptism IS NOT Necessary. It's a ceremony men perform!

Baptism of the Holy Spirit IS Necessary. It is performed BY the Holy Spirit!

The thief hanging Next to JESUS, was NOT baptized in Water. He Became BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus' teaching to NOT FORBID the Children, WAS an EXPRESS PRECEPT to ALLOW the Children to LEARN about Jesus, SO THE children COULD have the necessary knowledge FOR "THEM" (not their mommy & daddy) to MAKE a declaration of submission to the Lord!

Children learn by LISTENING. "LISTENING", not challenging, LIKE adults who have been exposed to the worlds evil, and who use mindful logic to WONDER "IF" they should believe what they are hearing.

All Humans, children or Adult...MUST DIE, Before they CAN RECEIVE the Holy Spirit.

OT men had to PHSICALLY Bodily DIE.
NT men must be Crucified Bodily Dead with Christ.
Babies Little Children...are EXCEPTED FROM having to BELIEVE and be Crucified with Christ...BECAUSE they have not YET developed the ability to reason.

All Children WHO ARE ALIVE...as Jesus' SAID...DO not FORBID...KEEP them from coming to Him, Learn About Him, Learn how to SEEK Him.
(Little Children that came to Jesus...Jesus Blessed....He didn't quicken them).

All Baby's WHO Physically bodily DIE...BECOME Saved and Quickened....
Without having Learned or made confessions.
God already KNOWS their pure Heart, that has not been tainted by the evils of this world.

BOL teaches, as do Catholics....A PARENT arranging a BABY Ceremonial Water Baptism, IS ... THE DAY, that baby RECEIVES the indwelling Holy Spirit. <--- Scripture teaches no such thing.

BOL has testified, he receivied the Holy Spirit, AS A BABY...without his confession, knowledge or remembrance.

BOL claims a man was excommunicated from the Catholic church..."for going too far"...in teaching "sins are not forgiven AFTER Baptism"...

Actually that is IN FACT TRUE....
And to GIVE the WHOLE TRUTH...
The Baptism IS Specifically SPIRITUAL Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
There IS no Forgiveness AFTER Baptism of the Holy Spirit...
BECAUSE there NO COMMISSION OF SIN, AFTER receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit....'
No Commission of Sin...means there IS NO SIN to "BE" forgiven.

After receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit...that person is FORGIVEN and FREED from SIN and FREED from the Consequences of SIN..
they DO NOT CONTINUE to Commit SIN.

BOL will disagree (and perhaps you also)...
However Scripture does not disagree.

IF one IS under Mosaic Law...
SIN "IS" a violation of the Law.

It was the LAW that dictated...
Disobedience to God....a sin
Rejection of God...a sin
Man steals from man...a sin
Man cheats a man...a sin
Etc. etc.

If a man IS under the Law ^ those things apply to that man.
If a man IS under the Law Consequences OF and IN the Law apply to that man.

IF a man IS NOT "under the Law"...
WHAT DOES APPLY to that man?

Disobedience to God IS a SIN.
Rejection of God IS a SIN.

Man stealing, lying, cheating, tricking, ANOTHER man...IS A SIN? No.
Why? Precisely BECAUSE those things ARE according to the Mosiac LAW.

Are there Consequences for a man, NOT under Mosaic Law, who lie, cheat, steal, etc. toward other men? Yes.
It is called "CIVIL LAW"...Trespassing, Theft, Slander, Stealing, etc.
And "Common LAW"...reject the other, distance from the other, not agree with the other, etc.

And WHAT does Scripture say?
Gods Precepts teach men acceptable behavior of men toward men...and IF men accomplish acceptable behavior between men, the outcome is acceptable and Blessed by God.

And...if men do not have acceptable behavior between themselves....? Scripture teaches YOU suffer the consequences. YOU lose out on Blessings from God....
YOU DO NOT LOSE your already received Salvation!

The TWIST with Catholicism, and what many Protestants have adopted from Catholics...IS
To KEEP Preaching Saved and Born Again men, ARE STILL SUBJECT to Mosaic law...that they DO SIN againt MEN, and that they DO CONINUE TO SIN against MEN after having been saved and born again.

THAT IS FALSE^
Jews Under the Law SIN against men.
Men NOT UNDER THE LAW, Can NOT SIN against men.

BOL consistently accuses men of SINNING.
But NOT ONCE would he point to a Scripture that reveals MEN IN Christ...are committing SIN. He was repeatedly asked...and each time makes a snarky remark, claims he won something, diverts, without ever answering.
He can't...Because he would have to go to, a Jew, Under the Mosaic Law ... which does not apply to a Gentile, NOT under the Law.

Catholics teach and practice; SIN applicable to OT Hebrew/Jewish men IS applicable to NT Jewish men and Gentiles IN Christ.

Catholics teach and practice; things NEVER taught in Scripture ... opinions, theories and philosophies, they have turned into and teach are FACTS. When they are not.

You can PLAINLY request BOL to REVEAL IN Scripture what he teaches...and he Can NOT do so.

His excuses are always the same PAT responses...
FIRST, the snarky cutdown, to set the premise no one should consider what you say.
(Because he has already deemed your belief and Scriptural evidence...irrelevant).
Sola Scripture merits NO consideration;
Church Leaders (well, ONLY Catholic church leaders) have the Authority to dictate, and what THEY say is binding;
Commentary quotes.
Claims he just verified you are wrong and he is right.
Claims he won something.
Regurgitates one last cut-down.
Then
1) demand you prove WITH Scripture, how everthing he claimed IS not IN Scripture...(you know the unnecessary Sola Scriptura...he didn't require...but you do..lol)
2) or he simply claims his booby prize and goes to another topic.

He presents a claim, and then sets the parameters on an UNEVEN playing field...

He presents claims NOT IN Scripture...and verifies with Opinions and philosophies of men (not in Scripture) and then want YOU to PROVE "with Scripture"....his unfounded Scriptural claims.

Not everyone studies LAW.
However LAW is written in the POSITIVE form. <--- that means LAW is written by WHAT IS...rather than the NEGATIVE, of what Isn't.

It is a cunning act of trickery, to preach the POSITIVE is NOT Necessary...(sola scriptura TRUTH)...then demand you prove him wrong with the NEGATIVE, that does not exist.
And further attempts to use personal degradation to buttress his claim.

The Topic doesn't matter. His MO is always the same, he is the TRUTH, and everyone who does not agree with "him", is without the truth.....oh...and "anti-Catholic"...LOL

Expect nothing different. He has been programmed since his natural birth.

Glory to God,
Taken

WOW.

1280 words of absolute gibberish. I think that’s a record for you.
Not sure how many “LOL’s” were in there – but I’m sure there were plenty . . .

I think the only thing we’ve learned in your latest psychotic tirade is that, on top of your Docetist heresy – you ALSO agree with the Montanist Heresy that poor Tertullian eventually succumbed to.

Congratulations . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Faith is not a decision that can be made for you by someone else.

No, but Baptism IS.

The parents make a Covenant with God to raise the child in the faith – JUST like the Jews did when they circumcised their 8-day-old boys when they entered the Covenant with God.

Baptism is the fulfillment of OT type that was Circumcision.
Paul refers to it as “circumcision of the heart” and the “circumcision of Christ” (Romans 2:29, Col. 2:12-17) to describe the reality of circumcision being a spiritually inward act, not merely an outward sign.

 

[shnarkle]

Faith is not a decision that can be made for you by someone else.

It is the "faith OF Christ" according to the will of the Father. It is God's decision, according to his will and purpose. Paul points out that it is not our "will or effort" Romans 9:16 It is foreordained by God, and God's will cannot be thwarted by the autonomous will of Satan himself, nor anyone else for that matter.

 

[reformed1689]

It is the "faith OF Christ" according to the will of the Father. It is God's decision, according to his will and purpose. Paul points out that it is not our "will or effort" Romans 9:16 It is foreordained by God, and God's will cannot be thwarted by the autonomous will of Satan himself, nor anyone else for that matter.

I'm talking about another human.

 

[reformed1689]

No, but Baptism IS.

Not according to Scripture. Only according to Catholic teaching.

The parents make a Covenant with God to raise the child in the faith – JUST like the Jews did when they circumcised their 8-day-old boys when they entered the Covenant with God.

Except that would assume Baptism is the same as circumcision. In which case we don't need a new covenant. And also, why then do you baptize girls?

There is zero evidence in Scripture for infant baptism. The closest you come is the baptism of children, which I affirm after they have trusted Christ. The idea of the whole household, you ignore the part where the household had to believe.

 

[shnarkle]

I'm talking about another human.

I assumed as much, but even so Christ is human as well, and it is only through the faith "of" Christ that one can make the decision in the first place. For all practical intents and purposes, it is Christ who makes the decision, or as Paul puts it, "Christ in you, your only hope of salvation".

Christ's will is conformed to the will of the Father, and when we are placed in him, it is his will that reigns supreme. Our will is conformed to his. Given that I don't know who you're responding to, I may be preaching to the choir here.

 

[shnarkle]

that would assume Baptism is the same as circumcision. In which case we don't need a new covenant. And also, why then do you baptize girls?

There a number of Christian denominations that view baptism as a replacement for circumcision, and also note that it allows girls whereas circumcision is only for boys. The Jewish equivalent to the Christian baptism you're referring to is the bar mitzvoh, and bat mitzvah. It would be equivalent to confirmation in the Catholic church. Catholic baptism is more along the lines of a Christening in Protestant denominations.

Ultimately, the problem is one of nomenclature as they all have their homeomorphic equivalents.

 

[reformed1689]

I assumed as much, but even so Christ is human as well, and it is only through the faith "of" Christ that one can make the decision in the first place. For all practical intents and purposes, it is Christ who makes the decision, or as Paul puts it, "Christ in you, your only hope of salvation".

Christ's will is conformed to the will of the Father, and when we are placed in him, it is his will that reigns supreme. Our will is conformed to his. Given that I don't know who you're responding to, I may be preaching to the choir here.

Christ was God before he was human. Big difference. And actually, it is the Father who makes the decision. He is the one that gives them to Christ.

 

[reformed1689]

There a number of Christian denominations that view baptism as a replacement for circumcision, and also note that it allows girls whereas circumcision is only for boys. The Jewish equivalent to the Christian baptism you're referring to is the bar mitzvoh, and bat mitzvah. It would be equivalent to confirmation in the Catholic church. Catholic baptism is more along the lines of a Christening in Protestant denominations.

Ultimately, the problem is one of nomenclature as they all have their homeomorphic equivalents.

Yes, it is not just the Catholic church that has gotten baptism horribly wrong.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not according to Scripture. Only according to Catholic teaching.


Except that would assume Baptism is the same as circumcision. In which case we don't need a new covenant. And also, why then do you baptize girls?

There is zero evidence in Scripture for infant baptism. The closest you come is the baptism of children, which I affirm after they have trusted Christ. The idea of the whole household, you ignore the part where the household had to believe.

If you don’t understand that Baptism is the fulfillments of circumcision – and that girls are now included – then you are FAR more Scripturally-bankrupt than I originally gave you credit for.

In the Old Covenant, women did not hold the place that they do within Christianity.
Do you NOT understand what Paul meant, when he said:
Gal. 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there MALE and FEMALE, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I suggest you read this a few times and let it sink in . . .

 

[shnarkle]

Christ was God before he was human. Big difference.

The faith of Christ is implanted in human beings, and it is specifically what enables them to make a decision to repent, respond to the call, follow, etc. Christ returns to the father with the marks of his crucifixion. He is still the word incarnate as Son of God and Son of Man for all eternity.

And actually, it is the Father who makes the decision. He is the one that gives them to Christ.

Quite true. As I mentioned before, it is only by the will and purpose of the Father, in, with, and through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit that any of this is possible.

 

[shnarkle]

Yes, it is not just the Catholic church that has gotten baptism horribly wrong.

We all make mistakes. C.S.Lewis' thoughts in "Mere Christianity" come into play here. It isn't that we need to overlook the doctrinal inconsistencies, or contradictions, but that we need to learn to live with them in the same way we learn to live with a flowering weed in our garden. God pours rain down upon the weeds and flowers alike, and Christ's sacrifice covers our ignorance of the truth.