The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Taken]

Parrot, what, exactly??

The historical fact is that Indulgences are not sold by the Catholic Church and this practice was NEVER sanctioned by the Church.
You're just angry because I exposed your LIE about claiming the Church did - and STILL does sell them.

Angry? Not at all. Most of the things you post are so ridiculous, I spend a good deal of time laughing at what you say.

Are you claiming (pope) forgivenesses were NOT given men, who Gave money for the building of St Peters Church?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Mal'ak]

So many things are wrong with this post that it is difficult to know just where to begin.

Since we are talking about Purgatory – I will leave out the objections to your perversions regarding an “earthly” Heaven or supposed “1000 year earthly reign”. We can save that error for another thread . . .

NOTHING about Final Purification denies the sufficiency of Christ’s blood. It is ONLY through His sacrifice that this purification is possible in the first place. It’s NOT His sacrifice “PLUS” Purgatory.

As for the function of a priest – you are wrong. A priest, by definition is one who offers SACRIFICE.

In the Old Testament, there were three levels of Priests: Aaron, the High Priest, the Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood, and the rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests: Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25), the Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15) and the general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more glorious than the Old Testament type.

Finally, in the Epistle of Jude, we read the warning about those who would usurp Church Authority by assuming the ministerial priesthood without the Church’s consent (Jude 1:11). In this passage he compares them to the rebellion of Korah and their subsequent punishment (Numbers 16:1-35, 31:16).

Everything I said was backed up by Scripture, unlike your entire rant, so if you have a problem with God's Word that is your problem that I can not help with. In any case, you did not make any point and made no sense in this post.

1. Priests do not teach, but sacrifice? That is wrong, this is not the old Testament anymore, Christian priests teach as there are no animal sacrifice in the Church...even the Catholic church. So not sure the point you wanted to make here about priests not teaching God's word, that is the entire purpose to teach, and not sure what priests today do as far as sacrificing things. No valid point at all here, not even by Catholic doctrine, because Catholics do not believe in sacrificing or that priests don't teach the Word of God. 1 Peter 2:5-9 is talking about works, which are our spiritual sacrifices.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

"shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness", Christians should show the glory of God and spread word of all he has done in our lives. "which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy", spread the good news about the "mercy" or sacrifice of Jesus for our sins so everyone that believes in him will be saved. This is all teaching and spreading the good news, not sure what you call it.

2. You did not read my post in your rush to push Catholic traditions of man, I never said you need Jesus' sacrifice plus purgatory. I clearly stated the only two things that can be considered "purgatory", is Abraham's bosom where the righteous Jews that died before Jesus' sacrifice had to wait until he died on the cross to enter Heaven and the thousand years were everyone will be spiritual "dead" while they are being taught about Jesus before being judged at the White Throne.

On side note:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Clearly stated Jesus' second coming will be when he returns to Earth as he left, when he does return the elect will rule with him for a thousand years. In verse 9 it clearly says they will be on Earth, and that God will send fire down to destroy the army of satan "from Heaven". There will be no flesh, so do not mistake "earth" the planet with "flesh", when Jesus returns all flesh will be gone.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Angry? Not at all. Most of the things you post are so ridiculous, I spend a good deal of time laughing at what you say.

Are you claiming (pope) forgivenesses were NOT given men, who Gave money for the building of St Peters Church?

Glory to God,
Taken

Once again – YOU have chosen to perpetuate a centuries old LIE that the Church sold Indulgences.

I will ask YOU the same question I’ve asked every other anti-Catholic genius:

Produce the document, declaration or decree from the Pope that sanctioned the selling of indulgences.

This should be easy for you – right??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Everything I said was backed up by Scripture, unlike your entire rant, so if you have a problem with God's Word that is your problem that I can not help with. In any case, you did not make any point and made no sense in this post.

1. Priests do not teach, but sacrifice? That is wrong, this is not the old Testament anymore, Christian priests teach as there are no animal sacrifice in the Church...even the Catholic church. So not sure the point you wanted to make here about priests not teaching God's word, that is the entire purpose to teach, and not sure what priests today do as far as sacrificing things. No valid point at all here, not even by Catholic doctrine, because Catholics do not believe in sacrificing or that priests don't teach the Word of God. 1 Peter 2:5-9 is talking about works, which are our spiritual sacrifices.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

"shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness", Christians should show the glory of God and spread word of all he has done in our lives. "which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy", spread the good news about the "mercy" or sacrifice of Jesus for our sins so everyone that believes in him will be saved. This is all teaching and spreading the good news, not sure what you call it.

2. You did not read my post in your rush to push Catholic traditions of man, I never said you need Jesus' sacrifice plus purgatory. I clearly stated the only two things that can be considered "purgatory", is Abraham's bosom where the righteous Jews that died before Jesus' sacrifice had to wait until he died on the cross to enter Heaven and the thousand years were everyone will be spiritual "dead" while they are being taught about Jesus before being judged at the White Throne.

On side note:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Clearly stated Jesus' second coming will be when he returns to Earth as he left, when he does return the elect will rule with him for a thousand years. In verse 9 it clearly says they will be on Earth, and that God will send fire down to destroy the army of satan "from Heaven". There will be no flesh, so do not mistake "earth" the planet with "flesh", when Jesus returns all flesh will be gone.

Once again – I’ll not get into your Dispensationalist errors here, as this is a thread about PURGATORY – NOT your end times fantasies.

And, as for Purgatory – what YOU described as Abraham’s Bosom is also described as Sheol or the Limbo of the Fathers. It is NOT Purgatory. The purpose of Purgatory or “Final Purification of the Elect” is cleansing and perfecting of the will before entering Heaven.

As to the function of priests – you are DEAD WRONG. The main function of a priest is to offer sacrifice.

For the Levitical Ministerial Priests – it was to offer animal sacrifices for sin

For the Catholic Ministerial Priests – it is to offer the Eucharist – the eternal sacrifice of Christ (Rev. 13:8).

 

[epostle]

2. You did not read my post in your rush to push Catholic traditions of man, I never said you need Jesus' sacrifice plus purgatory. I clearly stated the only two things that can be considered "purgatory", is Abraham's bosom where the righteous Jews that died before Jesus' sacrifice had to wait until he died on the cross to enter Heaven

So far so good.
A **killer** proof for the Scriptural nature of Purgatory can be found by comparing Luke 16:19-31 with Luke 23:43. In Luke 16, Jesus speaks of the poor man Lazarus being taken up to the "Bosom of Abraham." However, despite what is commonly presumed, this cannot be Heaven, since souls did not enter Heaven at this time (not even according to Jewish theology), but awaited Jesus' death, Resurrection, and Ascension for this. Until the Lord opens the gates of Heaven ("I go to prepare a place for you"), it was not possible for humanity to enter into the Presence of God. Rather, the God-man needed to do this first in order to make a place for humanity before the Throne of the Father. Rather, this "Bosom of Abraham" in Luke 16 is what Jewish oral tradition refers to as "the Paradise of the Fathers" --the Garden of Eden, which was withdrawn from the earth.

Now, ... To show that this is the case, one only need to look at Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the Good Thief, " **This day** you will be with me **in Paradise.** " Notice, here, that Jesus does not say, " ...in Heaven." ...And this is because, as we all know, Jesus did NOT go to Heaven THAT DAY. Rather, Jesus spent 3 days in the tomb! ...Not rising until Sunday morning. ...And we know from Scripture (e.g. 1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6) that Jesus' soul spent **that day** AMONG THE DEAD in Sheol. ...And, as John 20:17 hammers home for us, EVEN ON SUNDAY MORNING, Jesus had STILL "not yet ascended to the Father." So, the "Paradise" Jesus is talking about in Luke 23 is **absolutely** not Heaven itself. Rather, He is talking about the Paradise of the Fathers, and he is promising the Good Thief (a justly-condemned Jewish criminal) that, far from being condemned to Gehenna, he will be with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the righteous patriarchs (models of Judaism) in the Paradise of the Fathers. And this would have been enough for this Jew to die in peace --saved from hell, yet not fully-sanctified so as to immediately enter Heaven.

 

[Taken]

Once again – YOU have chosen to perpetuate a centuries old LIE that the Church sold Indulgences.

I will ask YOU the same question I’ve asked every other anti-Catholic genius:

Produce the document, declaration or decree from the Pope that sanctioned the selling of indulgences.

This should be easy for you – right??

Sell - give or hand over (something) in exchange for money

Answering questions is your failure, not mine.

"In the spring of 1515 the exchequer was empty and Leo never recovered from his financial embarrassment. Various doubtful and reprehensible methods were resorted to for raising money. He created new offices and dignities, and the most exalted places were put up for sale. Jubilees and indulgenceswere degraded almost entirely into financial transactions, yet without avail, as the treasury was ruined."

"..Rome permitted him to have preached in his territory the plenary indulgencepromised all those who contributed to the new St. Peter's; he was allowed to keep one half the returns, a transaction which brought dishonour on all concerned in it. Added to this, abuses occurred during the preaching of the Indulgence. The money contributions, a mere accessory, were frequently the chief object, and the "Indulgences for the Dead" became a vehicle of inadmissible teachings. That Leo X, in the most serious of all the crises which threatened the Church, should fail to prove the proper guide for her, is clear enough from what has been related above. He recognized neither the gravity of the situation nor the underlying causes of the revolt. Vigorous measures of reform might have proved an efficacious antidote, but the pope was deeply entangled in political affairs and allowed the imperial election to overshadow the revolt of Luther; moreover, he gave himself up unrestrainedly to his pleasures and failed to grasp fully the duties of his high office."

Source: newadvent.org encyclopedia
Exurbs

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sell - give or hand over (something) in exchange for money

Answering questions is your failure, not mine.

"In the spring of 1515 the exchequer was empty and Leo never recovered from his financial embarrassment. Various doubtful and reprehensible methods were resorted to for raising money. He created new offices and dignities, and the most exalted places were put up for sale. Jubilees and indulgenceswere degraded almost entirely into financial transactions, yet without avail, as the treasury was ruined."

"..Rome permitted him to have preached in his territory the plenary indulgencepromised all those who contributed to the new St. Peter's; he was allowed to keep one half the returns, a transaction which brought dishonour on all concerned in it. Added to this, abuses occurred during the preaching of the Indulgence. The money contributions, a mere accessory, were frequently the chief object, and the "Indulgences for the Dead" became a vehicle of inadmissible teachings. That Leo X, in the most serious of all the crises which threatened the Church, should fail to prove the proper guide for her, is clear enough from what has been related above. He recognized neither the gravity of the situation nor the underlying causes of the revolt. Vigorous measures of reform might have proved an efficacious antidote, but the pope was deeply entangled in political affairs and allowed the imperial election to overshadow the revolt of Luther; moreover, he gave himself up unrestrainedly to his pleasures and failed to grasp fully the duties of his high office."

Source: newadvent.org encyclopedia
Exurbs

Glory to God,
Taken

This excerpt proves my point.
No further discussion is necessary.

THANK YOU for presenting this historical evidence.

 

[Taken]

This excerpt proves my point.
No further discussion is necessary.

THANK YOU for presenting this historical evidence.

Your point was: the Catholic Church did not; has not; ever sanctioned the "Selling" of "Indulgences".

POST # 333 BOL
"NOBODY is denying that Indulgences exist.
We are simply exposing the lie that they are for SALE."

Acknowledging The words "for SALE" ; "SELLING"...of Indulgences, is not sanctioned or words used by the Catholic Church.

However...the FACT iS;
There Have been, and there Are;
Exchanges that are sanctiond and do occur...

An Indulgence, (forgiveness/pardon)
...BY a Catholic Cleric,
TO a Catholic Church member
...FOR a monetary giving to the Church.

While you are offended at the CLAIM of "selling of indulgences"...

Some people find it offensive, pertaining to the OUTCOME/RESULT, regardless of what the "EXCHANGE" is Called.

The RESULT is: FOR MONEY, the Catholic Church member has GAINED a pardon/ forgiveness/indulgence.

Going off on a tangent about the word "SALE", does not CHANGE the OUTCOME.

IF a POPE offers Indulgences FOR a Member's GIVING of MONEY TO the Church...
And a Catholic Church Member AGREES to give MONEY TO the CHURCH..."FOR" the purpose of Accepting and Receiving an "Indulgence"... An Agreement has been Struck;..

An Indulgence Given BY the Church...
FOR a Monetary Gain BY the Church.

Skirting around the WORD "SALE", is simply a TATIC, to skirt around the TRUTH. A MONEY exchange FOR a Gain of "something" (considered of Value BY the one GIVING the Money)...IS a "SALE", whether or not a Catholic agrees or finds the language "SALE" in their Teaching materials.

A Non-Catholic acknowledges an EXCHANGE occurs, WHEN;
An "Indulgence" BY the Pope, IS Given a Catholic FOR A "Monetary Giving" TO the Church By the Catholic member....

As a Catholic...Do you Agree Indulgences Are Given BY the Pope for a Monetary Giving By a Catholic TO the Catholic Church?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your point was: the Catholic Church did not; has not; ever sanctioned the "Selling" of "Indulgences".



Acknowledging The words "for SALE" ; "SELLING"...of Indulgences, is not sanctioned or words used by the Catholic Church.

However...the FACT iS;
There Have been, and there Are;
Exchanges that are sanctiond and do occur...

An Indulgence, (forgiveness/pardon)
...BY a Catholic Cleric,
TO a Catholic Church member
...FOR a monetary giving to the Church.

While you are offended at the CLAIM of "selling of indulgences"...

Some people find it offensive, pertaining to the OUTCOME/RESULT, regardless of what the "EXCHANGE" is Called.

The RESULT is: FOR MONEY, the Catholic Church member has GAINED a pardon/ forgiveness/indulgence.

Going off on a tangent about the word "SALE", does not CHANGE the OUTCOME.

IF a POPE offers Indulgences FOR a Member's GIVING of MONEY TO the Church...
And a Catholic Church Member AGREES to give MONEY TO the CHURCH..."FOR" the purpose of Accepting and Receiving an "Indulgence"... An Agreement has been Struck;..

An Indulgence Given BY the Church...
FOR a Monetary Gain BY the Church.

Skirting around the WORD "SALE", is simply a TATIC, to skirt around the TRUTH. A MONEY exchange FOR a Gain of "something" (considered of Value BY the one GIVING the Money)...IS a "SALE", whether or not a Catholic agrees or finds the language "SALE" in their Teaching materials.

A Non-Catholic acknowledges an EXCHANGE occurs, WHEN;
An "Indulgence" BY the Pope, IS Given a Catholic FOR A "Monetary Giving" TO the Church By the Catholic member....

As a Catholic...Do you Agree Indulgences Are Given BY the Pope for a Monetary Giving By a Catholic TO the Catholic Church?

Glory to God,
Taken

Certain charitable contributions – along with charitable acts once garnered an Indulgence. This does NOT mean they were for “sale”. It wasn’t until the 16th century that men like Johann Tetzel went around the German countryside selling them. This was an ABUSE of the practice.

Because of this abuse – charitable contributions are no longer allowed for the granting of Indulgences. Certain charitable acts still qualify.

The Church never sanctioned the sale of Indulgences.

This is one of those gargantuan anti-Catholic lies you and others were weened on.

 

[Taken]

Certain charitable contributions – along with charitable acts once garnered an Indulgence. This does NOT mean they were for “sale”. It wasn’t until the 16th century that men like Johann Tetzel went around the German countryside selling them. This was an ABUSE of the practice.

Tetzel was known for granting indulgences on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church in exchange for money, which are claimed to allow a remission of temporal punishment due to sin, the guilt of which has been forgiven, a position heavily challenged by Martin Luther. This contributed in part to the Reformation. The main usage of the indulgences sold by Johann Tetzel was to help fund and build the St. Peter's Basilica.
(Wikipedia with other named sources)

So you have made clear the Church did not SANCTION the selling of Indulgences...yet on Behalf of the Catholic Church, some men DID sell Indulgences ...on Behalf of the Catholic Church.

So is it you view the Catholic Church put a Stop to men Selling Indulgences on Behalf of the Catholic Church?

AND was the MONEY Collected from Selling Indulgences ADDED to the Catholic Church Treasury?

Because

of this abuse – charitable contributions are no longer allowed for the granting of Indulgences. Certain charitable acts still qualify.

Are you claiming a Work (of an unpaid nature,) Can cause a Catholic to be Pardoned of the consequences of a Forgiven Sin?

The Church never sanctioned the sale of Indulgences.

What happened to the MONEY From the Selling of Indulgences?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Tetzel was known for granting indulgences on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church in exchange for money, which are claimed to allow a remission of temporal punishment due to sin, the guilt of which has been forgiven, a position heavily challenged by Martin Luther. This contributed in part to the Reformation. The main usage of the indulgences sold by Johann Tetzel was to help fund and build the St. Peter's Basilica.
(Wikipedia with other named sources)

So you have made clear the Church did not SANCTION the selling of Indulgences...yet on Behalf of the Catholic Church, some men DID sell Indulgences ...on Behalf of the Catholic Church.

So is it you view the Catholic Church put a Stop to men Selling Indulgences on Behalf of the Catholic Church?

AND was the MONEY Collected from Selling Indulgences ADDED to the Catholic Church Treasury?

Are you claiming a Work (of an unpaid nature,) Can cause a Catholic to be Pardoned of the consequences of a Forgiven Sin?

What happened to the MONEY From the Selling of Indulgences?

Glory to God,
Taken

And once again – you don‘t seem to have the intellect to be able to grasp the idea that Tetzel sold Indulgences WITHOUT the permission OR the sanction of the Church. In other words, Einstein – he did it on his own.

It’s really not that difficult to understand – but somehow YOU haven’t been able to grasp it for several posts now . . .

 

[Taken]

And once again – you don‘t seem to have the intellect to be able to grasp the idea that Tetzel sold Indulgences WITHOUT the permission OR the sanction of the Church. In other words, Einstein – he did it on his own.

It’s really not that difficult to understand – but somehow YOU haven’t been able to grasp it for several posts now . . .

Uh, repeating yourself over and over has nothing to do with my understanding.

I never said the Catholic church sanctioned selling of Indulgences, so get over repeating yourself.

Try to stay on point.

Indulgences were sold.
What happened to the MONEY?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[epostle]

Uh, repeating yourself over and over has nothing to do with my understanding.

I never said the Catholic church sanctioned selling of Indulgences, so get over repeating yourself.

Try to stay on point.

Indulgences were sold.
What happened to the MONEY?

Glory to God,
Taken

Your self contradiction is glaring.
When ever any given church holds a fund raiser to build a wheel chair ramp, the indulgence is the joy of seeing the disabled attend church. It's a bad analogy because building a wheel chair ramp has nothing to do with the remission of consequences of sins already forgiven. Love is an action, an act of the will. not just a sentimental feeling. Scripture says love counts for something. No wheel chair ramp was ever built solely for the purpose of making money, but out of love for the disabled. That's what happened to the money but on a larger scale. Sin crept in and the Church put an end to the abuses. You harp on a problem that was resolved 400 years ago, and end up disproving God's divine justice, because all you can see is the money. You refute a doctrine that we don't believe either.
1 Peter 4:8 8bove all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

Proverbs 10:12 12Hatred stirs up conflict, but love covers over all wrongs.

Proverbs 17:9 9Whoever would foster love covers over an offense, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends.

James 5:20 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

The pious use of indulgences dates back into the early days of the Church, and the principles underlying indulgences extend back into the Bible itself. The principles behind indulgences are as clear in Scripture as those behind more familiar doctrines, such as the Trinity.

Primer on Indulgences

It's 2019, not 1619.

 

[Taken]

Your self contradiction is glaring.

Were Indulgences EVER sold On Behalf of the Catholic Church? Yes.

Did the Catholic Church dictate, teach, sanction Selling of Indulgences...BOL has repeatedly LIKE a copy and paste feign, umpteen times posted the Catholic Church did not SANCTION the selling of Indulgences....

So what? I never asked about what the Catholic Church SANCTIONED!

When ever any given church holds a fund raiser to build a wheel chair ramp, the indulgence is the joy of seeing the disabled attend church. It's a bad analogy because building a wheel chair ramp has nothing to do with the remission of consequences of sins already forgiven.

I never asked for a bad apology.

A fund raiser is obvious, by definition intended to raise MONEY.
A ramp is the obvious intent for which to spend the MONEY.

Love is an action, an act of the will. not just a sentimental feeling. Scripture says love counts for something. No wheel chair ramp was ever built solely for the purpose of making money, but out of love for the disabled.

I am well aware of what Love is.
Love is not the point.

That's what happened to the money but on a larger scale.

REALLY? What exactly was the MONEY from the sale of Indulgences SPENT on?

You can answer from your perspective.

Sin crept in and the Church put an end to the abuses.

Really? Immediately? Or After a lengthy period of Time?

You harp on a problem that was resolved 400 years ago,

Why AVOID the TRUTH and Facts of the History of the Catholic Church?

and end up disproving God's divine justice,

Since When Does The TRUTH disprove Gods divine Justice?

because all you can see is the money.

The TRUTH is: The Vatican received much money for the purpose of building St Peters.

The TRUTH is: people can visit St Peters for Free, (and endure the staggering long lines) or Pay an Admission Fee to Avoid the long lines).

Funny how even the Vatican takes advantage of Charging for Conveniences!

The pious use of indulgences dates back into the early days of the Church, and the principles underlying indulgences extend back into the Bible itself. The principles behind indulgences are as clear in Scripture as those behind more familiar doctrines, such as the Trinity.

If it's So Clear, why do you reference me to a Catholic manual? No thanks.

Primer on Indulgences

It's 2019, not 1619.

Funny how the Catholic Church appoints Peter (without his knowledge) as their first Pope, and Catholics love to speak of ancient Catholic history, but then skirts around other historical times in the Catholic Churches history.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Uh, repeating yourself over and over has nothing to do with my understanding.

I never said the Catholic church sanctioned selling of Indulgences, so get over repeating yourself.

Try to stay on point.

Indulgences were sold.
What happened to the MONEY?

Glory to God,
Taken

I dunno - it was probably sent to the building fund for the new St. Peter's Basilica.
That doesn't mean that the Pope sanctioned HOW the money was collected. He probably didn't know.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Were Indulgences EVER sold On Behalf of the Catholic Church? Yes.

Did the Catholic Church dictate, teach, sanction Selling of Indulgences...BOL has repeatedly LIKE a copy and paste feign, umpteen times posted the Catholic Church did not SANCTION the selling of Indulgences....

So what? I never asked about what the Catholic Church SANCTIONED!

I never asked for a bad apology.

A fund raiser is obvious, by definition intended to raise MONEY.
A ramp is the obvious intent for which to spend the MONEY.

I am well aware of what Love is.
Love is not the point.
REALLY? What exactly was the MONEY from the sale of Indulgences SPENT on?

You can answer from your perspective.
Really? Immediately? Or After a lengthy period of Time?
Why AVOID the TRUTH and Facts of the History of the Catholic Church?
Since When Does The TRUTH disprove Gods divine Justice?

The TRUTH is: The Vatican received much money for the purpose of building St Peters.

The TRUTH is: people can visit St Peters for Free, (and endure the staggering long lines) or Pay an Admission Fee to Avoid the long lines).

Funny how even the Vatican takes advantage of Charging for Conveniences!

If it's So Clear, why do you reference me to a Catholic manual? No thanks.

Primer on Indulgences

Funny how the Catholic Church appoints Peter (without his knowledge) as their first Pope, and Catholics love to speak of ancient Catholic history, but then skirts around other historical times in the Catholic Churches history.

Glory to God,
Taken

Sooooo, if YOU told one of your employees at an office across the country to collect donations for the annual company Toys for Tots drive - and he sent you a box of toys - would you assume that it was collected legitimately?
OR would you interrogate him about having stolen or coerced the donations?

WHY would the Pope automatically assume that Tetzel's donations were "dirty" and he was abusing a practice??
Your point here - as usual - is an asinine one . . .

 

[CovenantPromise]

Okay some tweaks. Catholics are big on this Purgatory thing. It does derive from a Hebraic teaching and it was revealed by Enoch not as a place but rather an affect of God's Spirit. The Hebrews then and now call it "Passing through the Fire". Talmudic Jews have too falsely interpreted it. The Talmud is those deep things of satan Christ speaks of in the Book of Revelation ( that is another discussion).

Passing Through the Fire: Guess what we all go through it even evil souls but they do not pass through to heaven but are cast to hell.

For believers -It depends upon the dross that is upon the soul. Some of us are perfected on earth but we still all pass through the fire no matter what. The Fire is not a place but rather, the Holy Spirit which test all things.

Paul reveals it:
1 Corinthians 3:
Christ Our Foundation
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

Silver , gold , precious gems , wood and hay and straw are the qualities of men. Paul has given tangible things to help us understand what he is explaining. The silver , gold , precious gems, wood hay and straw are metaphors (Correct application for that word) for spiritual states. Silver and gold, can have dross. Dross means venial sin or rather unintentional sin. Gold and silver have to do with the station of purpose in doctrine and practice. Some silver and gold station people haves dross- unintentional sin- Mistakes , not deliberate mortal sin.
Venial and Mortal sin is supported by the Word:
Effective Prayer
…16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death ( Venial sin), he should ask God, who will give life to those who commit this kind of sin.

Meaning : God can always bring a person who commits this kind of sin back to Life in Christ . Venial sin is unintentional and is NOT a practice in sin but rather mistakes. It is never willful.

There is a sin that leads to death; ( That means a sin that God can not retrieve you from and leads to complete death of the soul , being put away from God.)

I am not saying he should ask regarding that sin. 17All unrighteousness is sin, yet there is sin that does not lead to death. 18We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning; the One who was born of God protects him, and the evil one cannot touch him.…

Every single soul goes through the FIRE of God- The Holy Spirit. The purging is not a place but rather a process, that every Christian goes through. Some are purged right here, completely on earth, but they still pass through the fire. The precious gems pass through it like through warm milk. Silver has dross so there will be some burning on the journey to heaven , gold too has some burning. It is simply further refinement. Depending on your quality will determine the affect of the Fire of God upon you. Wood hay and straw can not be snatched from the fire so they do not enter into heaven. For who saves blackened coal? Those who accomplish being precious gems on earth have no dross and no friction if you will with God.

So no, there is no place called purgatory but rather an affect upon the soul by the fire of God which purges all impurity. The Hebrews understood God's Spirit this way, the Catholics put their spin on it . For the end times the Elect lady , the End Time elect are all precious gems. No dross will be found in them. This is the Last and final assembly in union with - is sister to the first church. And no the catholic church is NOT the FIRST Original Church like it likes to claim. The RCC sure likes to put its spin on things.

Now maybe you will all better understand this:
Rev.3:18
To the Church in Laodicea
…17You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent.…

The letters to the churches speak to spiritual conditions and states of believers. They are not so much addressed to any particular church like many have been conditioned to believe through indoctrination. They do pertain to our time . When Christ counsels this mind frame to purchase of Him or buy of Him gold refined by fire, He is saying souls(gold) for they are of Him. How do we purchase souls of Him? By prayer ! These are those who recently departed and we are to pray for them to reach their repose in Christ quickly we help with removing dross by sending our love and Light to them which is Christ. It supports the Maccabees . Christ said not one jot , not one letter of the Law will be lost but fulfilled. So He does not care what Protestants say. He supported/ supports the Feast of the Dedication(Hanukkah) in the gospel of John 10:22-39 . This is the Commemoration of Maccabees and is a dedication of light and remembering those who pass on in the faith. We send our love to their souls by prayer. For all those of Christ are eternally united no matter what! Maccabees too has to do with God's eternal fire in which we all pass through. Some die with dross and we are to pray for them. They never denounced Christ, but may not have known they had some sort of venial sin.

God Bless!

 

[Taken]

I dunno - it was probably sent to the building fund for the new St. Peter's Basilica.

Wow. You carry on about the Church not sanctioning the sale of indulgences... but appear untroubled the Church RECEIVED and spent the money from the sale of Indulgences.

That doesn't mean that the Pope sanctioned HOW the money was collected.

So? It doesn't mean The pope did't know HOW Money was being collected.

[/QUOTE] He probably didn't know.[/QUOTE]

Why would it BE PROBABLE the pope did not know Indulgences were being Sold?
Date: Aug 1517

Men who bought Indulgences were showing their PAPERS of pardons around town.

Martin Luther Posted his objection to the selling of Indulgences...
Date: Oct 1517

Seriously? The Archbishop Albert...over Tetzel ... and of All Saints Church in Germany...didn't Know OR inform the pope, After Luther posted his objection? LOL

Sure the pope was informed, and Bad mouthed Luther relentlessly for making objections.

Not until 50 years later was the Selling of Indulgences Abolished.
Council of Trent 1567.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Sooooo, if YOU told one of your employees at an office across the country to collect donations for the annual company Toys for Tots drive - and he sent you a box of toys - would you assume that it was collected legitimately?
OR would you interrogate him about having stolen or coerced the donations?

WHY would the Pope automatically assume that Tetzel's donations were "dirty" and he was abusing a practice??
Your point here - as usual - is an asinine one . . .

Soooo, your analogy is a fail.

Within 3 months Luther made a Public Announcement To the Church of the Selling of Indulgences...and you implying the pope was oblivious to the facts is laughable.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[CovenantPromise]

Soooo, your analogy is a fail.

Within 3 months Luther made a Public Announcement To the Church of the Selling of Indulgences...and you implying the pope was oblivious to the facts is laughable.

Glory to God,
Taken

Do you know, you will make no headway in righteousness upholding Luther as your foundation? Just as Catholics will not by upholding their bad players. They too cannot excuse the past bad actions of their denomination nor uphold any actions in heresy.