The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Marymog]

This reasoning always astounds me. Why stop at Irenaeus? Why not just go to the apostles? Duh..And if you read Irenaeus you'll know that he didn't have it all together either. Why people go to ecfs over scripture is beyond me. Well, its not. Its because the apostles don't say what you want them to say so its on to the next person in line, or the next language...whatever works.



Pssst, ask David Taylor. The n.t. knows nothing of infant baptism or bapitsmal regeneration. Bapitsm is for believers because they are saved, not to get saved.

Why do people go to the Reformers?

 

[Marymog]

Yeah the whole argument about asking grand children (no matter what number of greats precede the grandchildren) instead of asking the grandparent who left the record is just asinine.

Because your grandchildren would have better knowledge about you then your great grand children

So your retort is asinine.

 

[reformed1689]

Because your grandchildren would have better knowledge about you then your great grand children

So your retort is asinine.

No, the point is we have what the Apostles said.

 

[reformed1689]

You're asking me to prove a negative. That is asinine.
Prove YOUR position - in its FULL context.

No, you said we have his writings. So what part of his writings proved his postion on Infant Baptism that is unanimous among ECF? I'm not asking you to prove a negative. I am asking you to back up your claim. But if it truly a negative than that means you lose the debate because I was write. Tertullian does not hold that position by his writings and you are just assuming so.

 

[reformed1689]

Context is ALWAYS the enemy of the Anti-Catholic . . .

That's laughable. Context is my best friend on this verse.

 

[CovenantPromise]

PLEASE go back and read my posts. If you can find ONE post where I condemned a person's soul - as YOU did - I will publically apologize and renounce Catholicism.
Conversely, if you can't find one - YOU must apologize for your abomination.
Deal??

The fact is that I don't do that - even if YOU do.

I can expect nothing more from a liar. You have already renounced the undiluted truth , who cares about your vow to Catholicism . Christianity you do not hold to but for sure you are a father-in-law which means, those in the Law of the false Oral tradition. I am not speaking about true Oral tradition which is to speak from scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Is the canon;

1. An authoritative list of biblical books
2. A list of authoritative biblical books

Gods word doesn't become authoritative because your church sat down at trent and voted them in. They are authoritative because they are Gods word. And B.F. Westscott ripped your prelates at trent a new one due to the utter lack of education on their part to even determine what was canonical or not. They are the ones that elevated your extra 7 books to the level of inspired scripture.

Time for a history lesson . . .

Ummmmmm, Trent was NOT where the Canon of Scripture was declared. It is where is was officially CLOSED.

- The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified.
- It was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo eleven years later (393).
- At the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.

- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

As for the Seven Deuterocanonical Books that your Protestant Fathers REMOVED – here is how that happened:

About 40 years after Jesus died and rose from the dead, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. The Temple was desecrated and completely destroyed. Jesus foretold that this was going to happen in Mark 13: 1‐4. Not long after this, a group of Rabbis asked permission from the Roman authorities to hold a Rabbinical school at Jabneh (or Jamnia). One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians. The name, "Septuagint", comes from the number of scholars (70) who translated the Hebrew texts into Greek.

At this gathering, they decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel) that they felt were uninspired. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ. According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an "official" council with binding authority to make such a decision.

It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see over 150 references to them. The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiva, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kohkba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish revolt (circa 132 AD).

So – instead of usi9ng the SAME OT that Christ and the Apostles studied from – YOU and the rest of Protestantism hold to a POST-Christ, POST-Temple canon that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who declared a FALSE Christ (Simon Bar Kohkba).

Good job . . .

At the Last Supper – Jesus promised the leaders of His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide them to ALL TRUTH.

Over 300 years late, their successors WERE led by the Holy Spirit to the truth of Scripture.
This was not a decision that came from the Church WIOTHOUT the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[CovenantPromise]

You are in Law of Oral Tradition,- no basis in reality BOL- (BIG ON LIES)! You therefore are under the law of sin. I am for the Holy Spirit and the scriptures alone are the means by which to test all men's doctrines . Paul said it and you deny it! You denying that , therefore deny the authority of the scriptures, and those who do that condemn their own souls. Me recognizing that and pointing that out is simply acknowledging your OWN practices. The rest God will handle.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I can expect nothing more from a liar. You have already renounced the undiluted truth , who cares about your vow to Catholicism . Christianity you do not hold to but for sure you are a father-in-law which means, those in the Law of the false Oral tradition. I am not speaking about true Oral tradition which is to speak from scripture.

TRANSLATION:
"I lied about your comments and have NO proof for my remarks."

That's what I thought . . .

 

[CovenantPromise]

TRANSLATION:
"I lied about your comments and have NO proof for my remarks."

That's what I thought . . .

Think all you want , and boast in your own strength I will boast in the Lord. I am not trying to convince you at this point of any TRUTH. You like what you like and that does not mean what you like is TRUE.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, you said we have his writings. So what part of his writings proved his postion on Infant Baptism that is unanimous among ECF? I'm not asking you to prove a negative. I am asking you to back up your claim. But if it truly a negative than that means you lose the debate because I was write. Tertullian does not hold that position by his writings and you are just assuming so.

Which goes back to the root of your problem:
You have a severe attention deficit.

I’ve already explained Tertullian’s situation ad nauseam – but for some reason, you just can’t seem to grasp it.
I suggest you go back and read S*L*O*W*L*Y . . .

 

[Marymog]

No, the point is we have what the Apostles said.

It takes man to interpret Scripture. You and other men have interpreted what you THINK the Apostles meant. I trust the men who lived during the time of the Apostles.....you trust men who lived 1,500+ years later.

Hence....don't trust what the great great great grand children of David Taylor said about him.....trust the offspring that lived with him or closer to his time.

Logical Mary

 

[reformed1689]

It takes man to interpret Scripture. You and other men have interpreted what you THINK the Apostles meant. I trust the men who lived during the time of the Apostles.....you trust men who lived 1,500+ years later.

Hence....don't trust what the great great great grand children of David Taylor said about him.....trust the offspring that lived with him or closer to his time.

Logical Mary

And we also know from Scripture that Paul said even in his lifetime people started going away from their direct teaching and had to be corrected. So how do we know the ECF are right?

 

[reformed1689]

Which goes back to the root of your problem:
You have a severe attention deficit.

I’ve already explained Tertullian’s situation ad nauseam – but for some reason, you just can’t seem to grasp it.
I suggest you go back and read S*L*O*W*L*Y . . .

I have read it and you are resorting to ad hominem because it is frustrating that I proved your point invalid.

 

[CovenantPromise]

1 Corinthians 3:
Christ Our Foundation
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

This is simple for the wise, but the unstable distort his words to their own demise . Since it is clear Paul is not talking about that he brought forth Christ in making- but rather ,he is teaching in Christ's authority and is talking about a work in faith, I WILL ONCE AGAIN PROVE MY ARGUMENT which is always pure and not defiled.

Paul speaking of building as a master builder and laying the foundation= written words ,as a master builder (ELDER)has laid the foundation base, for other faith based works= doctrines. And since those words are called the FOUNDATION and only speak of Christ those words ARE JESUS CHRIST. And since all the apostles and friends of have the mind of Christ they all agree if one person of their members says it. So all the apostles laid the foundation. hence why the names of the twelve apostles are in the foundation of the walls of the city. And the names of the elders of the twelve tribes of Israel are on its gates. The OC is the gate but a foundation is greater than the gates because it upholds the gates (OC SCRIPTURES) and gives clarity concerning them.

So , those who come after, when they build , better be careful how they build. And only the gold and silver with dross will be snatched from the flames, but those who have produced hay will NOT. For no one saves coal, burned blackened char! I speak as a precious gem and NO ONE has been able to prove my words wrong. I have been called a lot of things , my work has been called a lot of things, but no one has been able to use the foundation against me to prove me wrong. But I have certainly proven many wrong, and shown the many they are hay not only in this TIME but those works of past Centuries because this is the DAY= REV.12 season that all is being separated through His marvelous light.

I have been condemned in word so to speak, by those who cling to false doctrines. So actually they have chosen the lie over Christ in their attitude and words toward me. I have judged rightly, for sound judgement is given to me. I have spoken and judged solely from TRUTH not hypocrisy, lukewarmness , not having any beam in my eye.Hence , my doctrine of clarity. My judgement will be upheld by God.

So the scriptures are the sole authority in testing all other works against. And that is understood through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nondenom40]

Why do people go to the Reformers?

Ask them. When i go to the reformers its usually to defend them against some nonsense put forth by catholics.

 

[reformed1689]

Why do people go to the Reformers?

Why do you assume that is who we go to for our authority? We go to Scripture.

 

[Heavenbound]

Please initially respond to these 13 question on the basis of your best instincts rather than from what you perceive the Bible to teach. Subsequently, I will address all 13 questions from a biblical perspective and then you will be encouraged to respond to the cited biblical texts. The questions are relevant to the debate over universal salvation, but this thread is only intended to apply them to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and, more broadly, to the question of ultimate release from Hell. And no, I'm not a Catholic; I'm an Evangelical.

13 PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE POST-MORTEM STATE OF THE DAMMED:

(1) At the moment of postmortem survival, do we retain the same basic moral character that we developed in this life?
(2) Would many carnal Christians be unable to live in a sin-free heavenly realm?
(3) Does Jesus' principle that like attracts like in the afterlife make many professing Christians unsuitable company for the saints in Heaven?
(4) Might not Hell be a realm of both reformative justice and retributive justice?
(5) Because of their secular upbringing or negative life experience, millions of people have heard the Gospel with no conviction that it is true. Is it just to send them to eternal conscious torment because their spiritual intuition is fatally flawed?
(6) Can anyone do enough in our brief sojourn on Earth to merit eternal conscious torment with no chance of postmortem redemption?
(7) If there are multiple Heavens and Hells with different levels, might not continual progress be made from one level to another?
(8) How does the concept of pure unconditional divine love apply to those in eternal conscious postmortem torment?
(9) If denizens of Hell sincerely wanted to repent, rise into God's loving presence, and be spiritually transformed, would a loving God deny them that opportunity?
(10) What keeps sinners in Hell--God, Satan, or the sinners themselves?
(11) Shall the will of an omnipotent God to save everyone be eternally thwarted?
(12) Is it reasonable to assume that no soul retrievals from Hell would ever be attempted?
(13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?

Don’t think so
Def
Def
Possibly, nobody’s come back to tell us
Only the King knows
Yes
Didn’t see it in bible
Only the King knows. Should evangelize with this in mind
Not according to bible tho with God all things are possible but I won’t put Lord to a test
God at the judgement says they’re sent to eternal torment
According to bible
Reasonable but God gets to say
Been asked for centuries

 

[shnarkle]

Thank you. From whom did you receive this theory?

It's not theory. Did you read the whole post? I'm not going to entertain the question with an answer because the arguments stand on their own merits. The logical fallacies of Ad Hominem or an Appeal to Authority are pointless.

In other words, the scholarship is impeccable. Refute the argument if you think you can.

 

[reformed1689]

TRANSLATION:
"I lied about your comments and have NO proof for my remarks."

That's what I thought . . .

Who is this even addressing?